Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It means "currently" from the perspective of the writer.
Surely you're familiar with the English tenses, right? The present tense in the English is equivalent to the present tense in the Greek.
So, John 5:24 means that when one believes, they possess (have) eternal life. That's when it is received.
This link will answer your questions:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm
The present tenses are equivalent in Greek and English."

I happen to teach NT Greek and some of what you have stated here is incorrect.

Could you specify which was "incorrect"? I'd like to know the "some" that was "incorrect". Thanks.

In English, the tenses primarily relate to the time of action. We add extra words to get kind of action. We could say, 'I go', but to indicate progressive action, we say, 'I am going'.

How does this refute anything I said?

In Greek (except for the future tense), the tenses refer primarily to the kind of action.

How does this refute anything I said?

Therefore, the present tense in Greek is not equivalent to the present tense in English. The Greek present tense refers to continual/continuous action. The time factor is of minor importance.

Not really. If this is true, then please explain what Jesus meant in Luke 8:13 by "believe (present tense) for a while and then fell away".

There certainly was not continual or continuous action,

NT Greek grammarians, Dana & Mantey, stated this important difference when compared with English tenses:

The distinctive function of the verb is to express action. Action as presented in the expression of a verbal idea involves two elements, time of action and kind of action. That is, the action may be described as occurring at a certain time, and must be described, if intelligible, as performed in a certain manner. Tense deals with these two aspects of verbal expression, kind of action being the chief idea involved, for time is but a minor consideration in the Greek tenses.... The important element of tense in Greek is kind of action (Dana & Mantey 1955:177, 178 emphasis in original).​

What is the meaning of the present tense in Greek? The aorist tense may be represented by a dot (•). It happened. The present tense by a line (_______________), and the perfect tense by a combination of the two (•_________________) [Dana & Mantey 1955:179].

The fundamental significance of the present tense is the idea of progress. It is the linear tense. This is not, however, its exclusive significance. It is a mistake to suppose "that the durative meaning monopolises the present stem" (M. 119). Since there is no aorist tense for present time, the present tense, as used in the indicative [mood], must do service for both linear and punctiliar action. But it is to be borne in mind that the idea of present time is secondary in force of the tense. The time element belongs to the indicative [mood], where the present tense is really the "imperfect of present time," while what we know as the imperfect tense is the "imperfect of past time." The progressive [i.e. continual/repeated action] force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods, which in the nature of the case do not need any "present punctiliar" tense (Dana & Mantey 1955:181, emphasis in original).​

We can apply this understanding of the Greek present tense to John 5:24 (ESV): 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears [present tense] my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life'.

Therefore the verse means that those who hear Jesus' word and continue to believe him continue to have eternal life.

Yet, this is in direct conflict with Luke 8:13 where the second soil DID NOT believe continually. But only for a while, and then quit.

And Jesus promise in John 10:28 for NEVER PERISHING is simply receiving the gift of eternal life that He alone gives. Therefore, to NEVER PERISH, the only requirement is to receive eternal life.

The verse does not teach that a person who once believed and no longer believes has eternal life. Eternal life is for those who continue to believe.

I've already shown this to be untrue from Jesus' own words.

 

[FreeGrace]

All arguments for or against OSAS rely on portions of scripture being ignored and good Hermeneutics demands that not be done and you will not drag me into the stupid, fruitless, Calvinist/Armenian Debate, both sides are wrong and God will straighten every one of us out when we arrive Home.

Amen to that!! I agree that both sides are wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Bill,

It will be eternally safe so long as you continue to believe. That's what John 5:24 (ESV) teaches.

Ox

Not true. It teaches us WHEN one receives (HAS ) eternal life. And John 10:28 teaches the ONLY REQUIREMENT for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the free gift of eternal life that Jesus alone gives

Your understanding of John 5:24 does not and cannot refute the clear meaning of John 10:28.

So, for one to NEVER PERISH, according to Jesus, is to BE GIVEN eternal life. It has nothing to do with maintenance by the believer.

It has ONLY to do with receiving the gift. That's the ONLY BASIS for NEVER PERISHING.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It seems to me that if giving away one's salvation, or gift of eternal life, the Bible would have quite plainly made that clear. Which the Bible doesn't even address.

So the idea of giving away one's salvation is clearly a man made doctrine.

In context of the conversation the point was OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

In context of the conversation the point was OSAS.

Agreed. And my point remains. If salvation could be given away, the Bible would have made that point plainly.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Agreed. And my point remains. If salvation could be given away, the Bible would have made that point plainly.

And using it the way I did, I did not indicate that it could be, in fact, and in different words I said exactly what you are, incorrectly, rebuking me for.

 

[Jim Parker]

Branches that are cut out of the vine do not belong to the Lord. They are unfruitful, unbelieving, unsaved branches.

That would contradict the verse itself.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off....
If the branch is "in Christ" (in me) it has eternal life by being united to Christ. Since being "in Christ" is the essence of "having salvation," those branches are, by definition, saved.
One cannot, at the same time be both in Christ (saved) and not in Christ (lost.)
Being "in Christ" and not saved is like being a little bit pregnant.

We stand by faith. But if we don't continue in God's kindness and stop believing, and thus, stop producing fruit, we will, like the Israelites, be cut out of the vine and burned as unbelieving, unsaved, unfruitful branches. The scriptures speak very plainly about this. Branches that are cut out of the vine because of unbelief and unfruitfulness simply do not belong to the Lord. In the end they will be burned.

Exactly.
My only disagreement is with the idea of being "in Christ" and at the same time unsaved.
It is a paradox.
I am reminded that God chose all of Israel to be His people yet many were lost because of unbelief. Your citation of the branches being cut off from the olive tree describes that.
So, I disagree only on a semantic level.

Good post.

Iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

And using it the way I did, I did not indicate that it could be, in fact, and in different words I said exactly what you are, incorrectly, rebuking me for.

Oh, I was not rebuking anything you posted. Sorry it was taken that way. I believe we are on the same side of the Bible.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oh, I was not rebuking anything you posted. Sorry it was taken that way. I believe we are on the same side of the Bible.

Sorry about that then, my bad.

 

[OzSpen]

41 “Then he will say to those on his left,‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The lost man will not spiritual cease to exist and looking at the single verse ripped out it's context already demonstrates that but put it back into it's context, that paragraph, it is very clear the Lost will suffer separation from God for Eternity.

I was not taking out of context. At no point did I state that 'eternal punishment' of those on Jesus' left at the Final Judgment (the damned) would 'spiritually cease to exist'. Never have I stated that. I don't understand that that is the teaching of Matt 24:46 (ESV).

In fact, their experience of, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt 24:41 ESV) demonstrates that there is active punishment of those who are cursed, those on his left, the damned, non-believers in Jesus. How can there be 'eternal fire' without God's involvement?

That leads to answering this question: Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I said this:
"It means "currently" from the perspective of the writer.
Surely you're familiar with the English tenses, right? The present tense in the English is equivalent to the present tense in the Greek.

False!

I've presented Greek grammar at #67 to refute this view, but you are not listening.

Do you read and parse Greek grammar yourself?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Perhaps she means eternal existence(?)

Let's wait for her explanation, rather than arguing from silence.

 

[OzSpen]

Not true. It teaches us WHEN one receives (HAS ) eternal life. And John 10:28 teaches the ONLY REQUIREMENT for NEVER PERISHING is to receive the free gift of eternal life that Jesus alone gives

Your understanding of John 5:24 does not and cannot refute the clear meaning of John 10:28.

So, for one to NEVER PERISH, according to Jesus, is to BE GIVEN eternal life. It has nothing to do with maintenance by the believer.

It has ONLY to do with receiving the gift. That's the ONLY BASIS for NEVER PERISHING.

This is what happens when you reject the Greek grammar of John 5:24 (ESV) and John 10:28 (ESV) and don't consider the content verses like these:

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:18-20 ESV).

So, it is possible to shipwreck ones faith, be handed over to Satan and blaspheme against God in the process. That's Bible!

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

This is what happens when you reject the Greek grammar of John 5:24 (ESV) and John 10:28 (ESV) and don't consider the content verses like these:

So, it is possible to shipwreck ones faith, be handed over to Satan and blaspheme against God in the process. That's Bible!
Oz

1Ti 1:19-20... By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Can one be saved by shipwrecked faith?
Or will the sharks get you?

 

[Jim Parker]

It has ONLY to do with receiving the gift. That's the ONLY BASIS for NEVER PERISHING.

That is false.

JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,....
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize

1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, becareful that you don't fall!

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IFYOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IFWE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IFTHEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IFYOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

 

[th1b.taylor]

I was not taking out of context. At no point did I state that 'eternal punishment' of those on Jesus' left at the Final Judgment (the damned) would 'spiritually cease to exist'. Never have I stated that. I don't understand that that is the teaching of Matt 24:46 (ESV).

In fact, their experience of, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt 24:41 ESV) demonstrates that there is active punishment of those who are cursed, those on his left, the damned, non-believers in Jesus. How can there be 'eternal fire' without God's involvement?

That leads to answering this question: Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

Oz

I really do not know how you made that leap but there are different levels of rewaqrd and there is no reason for the inverse not to be true of the Abyss.

 

[chessman]

it is possible to shipwreck ones faith

Yes.
By rejecting _____, they suffered "'shipwreck" concerning their faith.

According to the Greek (and context), what did they (Hymenaeus and Alexander) reject that caused them to "shipwreck" their faith?

1. Jesus
2. Their conscience
3. Their faith
4. All of the above

1 Timothy 1:3-5 (ESV) As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ​

According to the Letter, was "their faith":
1. speculative
2. Stewarded by God
3. Sincere

 

[OzSpen]

Yes.
By rejecting _____, they suffered "'shipwreck" concerning their faith.

According to the Greek (and context), what did they (Hymenaeus and Alexander) reject that caused them to "shipwreck" to their faith?

1. Jesus
2. Their conscience
3. Their faith
4. All of the aboce

1 Timothy 1:3-5 (ESV) As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ​

According to the Letter, was "their faith":
1. speculative
2. Stewarded by God
3. Sincere

This is the Maheno shipwreck on the beach at Fraser Island off the coast of Hervey Bay, Qld (4 hours north of where I live):

Maheno shipwreck,

(photo courtesy Pinterest)

This is what this working ship used to look like:

(courtesy Wikipedia)

The shipwrecked Maheno is useless as a boat. It used to be a usable steam ship but it is nothing more than a rusted hull now.

Thus, a shipwrecked faith is one that used to be functional but is now a useless faith - it has been ruined, abandoned, given up, torn down.

The Bible teaches it can be done and I know it happens. Two fellows who were vibrant Christians in my first theological college abandoned their faith and have not returned. Heb 6:6 (NLT) states of them, 'It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I really do not know how you made that leap but there are different levels of rewaqrd and there is no reason for the inverse not to be true of the Abyss.

What leap?

 

[chessman]

The shipwrecked Maheno is useless as a boat.

Did God "steward" Maheno?

It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance;

So Paul was telling Timothy to do the impossible?