Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[atpollard]

You answered yourself and they are the followers of Jesus that have poured themselves out and have been indwelt with the Holy spirit. (John 10:27-29)

Sorry, sometimes we Reformed Pentecostals just have to dance and shout.

 

[FreeGrace]

How about a new player to chat with. Since I like to look at context, let's throw up all of John 10 [NIV] for reference:

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep

1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.


7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[fn] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.


11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.


14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”


19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”


21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”


Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[fn] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”


25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[fn]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”


33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’[fn]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.


40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

OK, now that we've seen the entire chapter, is there any explanation to go along with it?

How does the whole chapter form the understanding of v.28?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not part of the "conditional security crowd", so I'll pass on those parts. Just some friendly conversation for clarification of terms and ideas.

How do we know from John 10:28 that there are no conditions prior to being given eternal life? I am only pointing out the limitations of a single verse of scripture.

I wasn't addressing conditions prior to being given eternal life, although I did mention the condition was given back in v.9, where Jesus equated Himself as a gate to the sheep pen, and those who "enter through Me" are saved, a clear reference to faith in Christ.

The point of the OP is that John 10 :28 has no conditions for those given eternal life for never perishing.

The point is that the ONLY condition for NEVER PERISHING is to receive eternal life. That is what Jesus clearly taught.

I would like to hear some words that tend to get slung around broken down clearer if you feel like it. You mention "saved" and "believing the gospel" and "eternal life", and I'd like a better understanding of what YOU mean by these words.

Just what the Bible means by these very words. They are biblical words.

For example, "eternal life" can't mean never dying, because people die all of the time. So I can't already have THAT sort of eternal life.
What is "believe" and what exactly do we need to believe?
What part does faith play and what is this "dead faith" that James warns about? (James 2:17,26)

Sorry, but none of these questions has any relevance to the point of the OP.

Since there is a "yes" after the word "Christian:", I have to assume you're already familiar with these terms.

I want to stay focused on the point of the OP. It's those who claim that salvation can be lost that this thread is for. To explain where Jesus mentioned all their conditions and requirements in order to avoid perishing.

Yet, Jesus gave none.

So, here's my point: if there are more conditions AFTER receiving the gift of eternal life, then Jesus wasn't totally truthful by not mentioning them. If one who has received eternal life EVER ends up perishing, means that Jesus lied. Plain and simple.

They need to explain why Jesus didn't bother noting any other conditions after receiving eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-29

Here is the condition to being one of "His sheep".
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Respectfully, that isn't really worded as a condition in that passage. It would be a condition if it said something closer to "You are my sheep if you hear my voice and follow me" which fits with a verse like: John 8:31 [NKJV] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."

And...v.28 would have said something like this:
"I give My sheep eternal life, and those who follow Me WILL NEVER PERISH". Then the claim that following Jesus would be a condition for NEVER PERISHING.

But Jesus never made any such claim, nor noted any conditions on those who have received eternal life.

The very FACT that one receives eternal life is the ONLY condition for NEVER PERISHING. Which parallels what Paul taught in Romans, where he noted that eternal life is a gift of God in 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in 11:29.

 

[atpollard]

How does the whole chapter form the understanding of v.28?
Thanks.

So let's really look at it, shall we:

John 10:25 Note that even seeing the miracles of Jesus with your own eyes and hearing the words of God from the lips of Jesus himself is not enough to convince a human heart. What possible hope does any human evangelist have working in his own power? Note also that the belief that God calls us to is not a blind faith ... the work of the Father testified to the truth about the Son. God will provide us with the evidence that we need to be sure of our faith, that what we believe is really true.

John 10:26 Note the reason Jesus gives for unbelief. "You do not believe because you are not me sheep." It does not say that they are not His sheep because they do not believe. Think about that. Ownership by God is the cause of belief in God. Not belonging to God is the cause of unbelief. It is Monergism. It is all about a soverign God and not all about the free will of men.

John 10:27 With ownership by God (being His sheep) comes a relationship with God. Personal and intimate.

So now let's look at your 'smoking gun' verse and talk about what it says and what it does not say: John 10:28

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" ... So what it says is that Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep. This verse is silent on whether or not there are any conditions for receiving this eternal life. One could assume either way from just this one verse and the chapter at large is not really about salvation directly. Just to point out the obvious Arminian interpretation for this part, what in this verse proves that it is not those who persevere to the end who are 'His sheep' and given eternal life (since the end is where eternal life is technically received) and then they 'shall never perish'.

"No one will snatch them out of my hand." ... So it says that Satan and other people cannot take your salvation from you. How do you propose to disprove the often articulated claim that the sheep has the free will to jump out of Jesus' hand?


.......... So is that what you wanted?

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

I will jump in the fray.

In order for a person to receive salvation, what does scripture say? That we must die and be made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:5, " Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved). This verse states that before salvation we were dead. How is it that we were dead? physically or spiritually. We were dead spiritually.

Our spirit was subject to our soul, the part that is worldly. When we believed that Christ died to pay our sin debt, the Spirit witnessed to our spirit that we are children of God( Romans 8:16). It was at that time we were made alive(Spiritually) in Christ and we received salvation. The thing that most don't understand or know about salvation is that there is 3 parts to salvation.
1. we received salvation from the penalty of sin. We were no longer subject to spiritual death.
2. we received salvation from the power of sin. Sin no longer reigned in our life, Christ does.
3. At the restoration of all things, we will receive salvation from the presence of sin, and will forever be in the presence of our savior.

At the point of salvation, there was a relationship established with God between Him and believers. That relations is nor has ever been in jeopardy, it was established for eternity. Along with that relationship a fellowship was established. When a believer stumbles and falls into a fault, it is the fellowship that is hindered, not the relationship. The relationship was, is, sealed with the earnest of the Spirit that was given to us when we believed.

All sin has been judged on the cross, God's wrath was satisfied by the blood (life) of Christ and now there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. Just as the sins that the children of Israel committed, after their being removed from Egypt by the blood on the door post, broke fellowship with God, they never ceased to be God's chosen people. The sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, not for restoration of relationship( being God's chosen people). So it is with the believer, once that relationship has been established, it is never broken. But fellowship is broken and must be restored by our confessing to God that we have sinned as did the prodigal son in Luke.

 

[JLB]

Respectfully, that isn't really worded as a condition in that passage. It would be a condition if it said something closer to "You are my sheep if you hear my voice and follow me" which fits with a verse like: John 8:31 [NKJV] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."
In this case, it reads more like a simple statement of fact about His sheep. Jesus has a personal relationship with his people (we hear His voice and He knows us) and because of that relationship, we follow Him (unlike the goats or wolves in sheeps clothing or those who are not His sheep).
John 10:26 [NKJV] But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Yes, believe means commit, trust, obey.

Those who believe, obey.

If you believe Jesus is your Lord, then you obey what he says.

Jesus qualifies what it means to be "His sheep" : My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Hear in this verse means to listen and do what is said, hence the confirmation of "they follow me".

• That is what sheep do, they "follow" the Sheppard, and do what the Sheppard tells them to do.

Those that follow for a while, and obey His voice for a while, then become lost, are likened to sinners who are lost and need to repent.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

Those who believe, show the believe by following Him, and obeying His Voice, are qualified as Sheep, if they maintain their belief and continue to the end, not just for a while.

Judas obeyed and followed Jesus for 3 1/2 years, as a faithful disciple, and was then promoted to an apostle, in which he preached the Gospel to the lost, and was empowered to heal the sick and raise the dead, and cast out devils [the signs of those who believe] then became a traitor.


Example:


A shepherd goes to a far country to buy a herd of 100 sheep.

He purchases the sheep, and begins his journey back home.

On the way one of the sheep strays away and becomes lost, and wanders to become part of another herd.

When the shepherd arrives home, he counts his sheep and sees he only has 99 sheep.

How many sheep does the shepherd have?


JLB

 

[Mike]

Note also that the belief that God calls us to is not a blind faith ...

I'm not sure about this. I believe it is our human condition that requires anything beyond blind faith in Him, blind trust and security in Him. If our hearts were trusting, we would give ourselves without reservation and yield to Him without Him having to prove Himself to us.

Matthew 18:1-5
"At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me."

A child who has not yet been conditioned by our broken world trusts implicitly. Back when our children were very young, there was no sense of suspicion that I didn't have their safety in mind. They unconditionally felt safe. This is what I read into the verses above.

Fortunately, our Father knows our struggle. In His Creation, the evidence of Him is confirmed with every rock that's turned over.

Romans 1:19-21
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

While His Truth is evident and confirmed the more it is challenged, I believe Jesus is saying in Matthew that blind faith, trust, and certainty, like that if a child is optimal.

This emphasizes the importance of giving oneself over to Him unconditionally and remaining in the faith. This is the place we should want to be in. Partially trusting, conditionally believing, and not holding to faith in Him are as the seeds that fall among the thorns in Matthew 13:7. By faith, we are saved. Walking away from the faith has the ultimate consequence. This is what the whole of scripture says to me.

 

[JLB]

For how long does the shepherd go after His one sheep?

The scripture doesn't mention how long.

Do you have any thoughts on why Jesus used the exact number 100 to illustrate His flock of sheep?

The scripture doesn't mention why Jesus used the exact number 100.

If I show you scripture and you believe, then what are my "thoughts" going to matter.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If a person is removed from being "in Him", then cast into the fire and burned, does this represent salvation?

The branches that are fruitful, remain connected to the vine and become more fruitful, because they are pruned.

The branches that are not fruitful are removed from Him, and they wither, no longer being connect to the vine from where they once received life. These withered branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Notice the present tense "HAS" regarding eternal life.

What does tense mean for the NT Greek verbs? What does the present tense 'has' mean?

Also, what are the meanings of the tenses in this verse: 'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life'?

The Greek tenses have different emphases to the English tenses.

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

So now let's look at your 'smoking gun' verse and talk about what it says and what it does not say: John 10:28

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" ... So what it says is that Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep. This verse is silent on whether or not there are any conditions for receiving this eternal life.

This thread is not about the conditions for receiving this eternal life. Jesus made clear in v.9 how one is saved, which means receiving eternal life. That's not the discussion.

The ONLY THING that is at issue is whether there are specific conditions or requirements AFTER receiving eternal life for NEVER PERISHING. And Jesus gave none. But the loss of salvation view demands that there are a number of conditions or requirements that must be made OR the one who received eternal life WILL PERISH. In direct contradiction with Jesus' words.

One could assume either way from just this one verse and the chapter at large is not really about salvation directly. Just to point out the obvious Arminian interpretation for this part, what in this verse proves that it is not those who persevere to the end who are 'His sheep' and given eternal life (since the end is where eternal life is technically received) and then they 'shall never perish'.

The proof is that Jesus was clear about the end result of receiving eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH.

"No one will snatch them out of my hand." ... So it says that Satan and other people cannot take your salvation from you. How do you propose to disprove the often articulated claim that the sheep has the free will to jump out of Jesus' hand?

Jesus didn't say "Satan and other people". He said "no one". Which is equivalent to "no person". If He had said "no one else", then the conditional security folk would have a point, but He didn't say that, and neither do they have a point.

When Jesus said "no one" He was including the believer him/herself.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

I will jump in the fray.

It's great to have you here! I always appreciate your wisdom.

In order for a person to receive salvation, what does scripture say? That we must die and be made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:5, " Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved). This verse states that before salvation we were dead. How is it that we were dead? physically or spiritually. We were dead spiritually.

Our spirit was subject to our soul, the part that is worldly. When we believed that Christ died to pay our sin debt, the Spirit witnessed to our spirit that we are children of God( Romans 8:16). It was at that time we were made alive(Spiritually) in Christ and we received salvation. The thing that most don't understand or know about salvation is that there is 3 parts to salvation.
1. we received salvation from the penalty of sin. We were no longer subject to spiritual death.
2. we received salvation from the power of sin. Sin no longer reigned in our life, Christ does.
3. At the restoration of all things, we will receive salvation from the presence of sin, and will forever be in the presence of our savior.

At the point of salvation, there was a relationship established with God between Him and believers. That relations is nor has ever been in jeopardy, it was established for eternity. Along with that relationship a fellowship was established. When a believer stumbles and falls into a fault, it is the fellowship that is hindered, not the relationship. The relationship was, is, sealed with the earnest of the Spirit that was given to us when we believed.

All sin has been judged on the cross, God's wrath was satisfied by the blood (life) of Christ and now there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. Just as the sins that the children of Israel committed, after their being removed from Egypt by the blood on the door post, broke fellowship with God, they never ceased to be God's chosen people. The sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, not for restoration of relationship( being God's chosen people). So it is with the believer, once that relationship has been established, it is never broken. But fellowship is broken and must be restored by our confessing to God that we have sinned as did the prodigal son in Luke.

 

[FreeGrace]

What does tense mean for the NT Greek verbs? What does the present tense 'has' mean?

It means "currently" from the perspective of the writer.

Surely you're familiar with the English tenses, right? The present tense in the English is equivalent to the present tense in the Greek.

So, John 5:24 means that when one believes, they possess (have) eternal life. That's when it is received.

Also, what are the meanings of the tenses in this verse: 'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life'?

This link will answer your questions:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

The Greek tenses have different emphases to the English tenses.
Oz

The present tenses are equivalent in Greek and English.

 

[chessman]

which is lost until he finds it?

The scripture doesn't mention how long.

Sure it does. He searches "until He finds it".

The scripture doesn't mention why Jesus used the exact number 100.

If I show you scripture and you believe, then what are my "thoughts" going to matter.

Thus, I asked for your thoughts on it. It's my thought that the number 100 represents fullness/completeness in Jewish mindset. i.e., Jesus returns when the full number of sheep are found. 100% of them. That's the point.

Exodus 27:9 (NKJV) “You shall also make the court of the tabernacle. For the south side there shall be hangings for the court made of fine woven linen, one hundred cubits long for one side.​

Matthew 13:8 (NKJV) But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.​

Romans 11:25 (LEB) For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,​

How about you. Do you think there is a full number of His other sheep to come in and He's searching "until He finds them"?

If a person is removed from being "in Him",

Umm, the passage doesn't say they are being removed from being in Him. The branches are "taken away". Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?

If a person is removed from being "in Him", then cast into the fire and burned, does this represent salvation?

Again, the verse doesn't say they are "removed from being in Him". The branches are "taken away". They wither and are burned in fire.
There's no real justification for thinking this means they are cast into Hell's fire or eternal fire, just because it says fire. Why add that idea to the Text???

There's amble very Biblical reason(s) to understand this whole illustration to mean a branch in Him (a saved person) is supposed to bear fruit while here on Earth (demonstrating to others they are His disciples, v8) and after doing so (or lack thereof) they are "taken away" (they die, their body withers and their spirit rises and goes to be with the Lord). But I have explained my view on this illustration to you numerous times. Do you have any questions for me on my view? Does my view need clarification for you? If you disagree and think "fire" means eternal fire, fine. You have to add that idea to the Text, though. And furthermore, what does this have to do with John 10:28?

If you disagree and think pruned branches are not cut and removed branches, then fine. That's your view. And, I fully understand that's your view. It's not what vinedresser do, however, each year to vines ('remove foliage' is what you've said in the past). It doesn't even make sense, not to mention, not what the word means. If you remove foliage from branches, you are simply stunting it photosynthesis process as received through the foilage. But there's no need to repeat your view over and over. Especially since the OP is about John 10:28. But, regardless, I know what pruning means. It means removing the older branches from a vine that have already produced their fruit.

If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?

Clearly, the Text says Every branch is already clean because of the Word, not because of their fruit production. Yet, that verse is avoided by you every time.

 

[JLB]

Umm, the passage doesn't say they are being removed from being in Him. The branches are "taken away". Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?

Into the fire and are burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?

 

[JLB]

Clearly, the Text says Every branch is already clean because of the Word, not because of their fruit production. Yet, that verse is avoided by you every time.

That's your opinion, with no scripture to prove what you say.


Here is what scriptures says, which you continually avoid.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

Fruitless branches are removed from Him, and cast into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There's no real justification for thinking this means they are cast into Hell's fire or eternal fire, just because it says fire. Why add that idea to the Text???

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

That's just it, it doesn't just say fire.

It says the fire.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here are some other examples that refer specifically to the fire.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.


I suppose "a fire" could be just about anything a person could dream up.

The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sorry, sometimes we Reformed Pentecostals just have to dance and shout.

That's all good. The first time I did a special I was tagged a Bapticostal.

 

[chessman]

I asked:

Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?

You answered:

Into the fire and are burned.

Okay. I agree.

Matthew 3:11 (NKJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?

Because all the branches are saved, not just the fruitful branches. Every branch is "taken away" as the Text says. And a vinedresser casts every branch into the fire.

Again, all you are doing is assuming that the vinedresser's fire is Hell. Which isn't in the Text. You have to add that idea to the Text. Other than that, we see this passage the same.

If the Text said that the branches (fruitful or not) were cast into Hell, you'd have a point. But the fact is, the Text doesn't say that or even imply it.

Any thoughts on John 10:28?

 

[th1b.taylor]

This thread is not about the conditions for receiving this eternal life. Jesus made clear in v.9 how one is saved, which means receiving eternal life. That's not the discussion.

The ONLY THING that is at issue is whether there are specific conditions or requirements AFTER receiving eternal life for NEVER PERISHING. And Jesus gave none. But the loss of salvation view demands that there are a number of conditions or requirements that must be made OR the one who received eternal life WILL PERISH. In direct contradiction with Jesus' words.


The proof is that Jesus was clear about the end result of receiving eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH.


Jesus didn't say "Satan and other people". He said "no one". Which is equivalent to "no person". If He had said "no one else", then the conditional security folk would have a point, but He didn't say that, and neither do they have a point.

When Jesus said "no one" He was including the believer him/herself.

AMEN, GLORY