Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[Jim Parker]

Nah, you've got it wrong, I could not give my salvation away, it was eternal safety the moment I turned myself over to God for His purposes and use.

That is an heretical invention of the Heretic, John Calvin.

Scripture says:
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they have fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

That statement refers specifically to people who were "saved" (enlightened, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasters of the good word and the powers of the age to come) and who have fallen away (are no longer saved) and needs (if it were possible) to repent again.

The word "enlightened" is the term used by the early church to describe someone who had been born again.

When you "turn yourself over to God," you do not become an automaton or a puppet with no free will of your own. You still have free will and you can still walk away. It is impossible to force anyone to love anyone.

 

[atpollard]

What John had in mind in John 15 was what he wrote in John 15.

Come on, Jesus meant that he was literally a plant and people are literally sticks that need to be burned?
I doubt that.

 

[Jim Parker]

Come on, Jesus meant that he was literally a plant and people are literally sticks that need to be burned?
I doubt that.

If you were unable to understand that very simple sentence, how, in heaven's name, do you imagine that you are competent interpret scripture?

 

[atpollard]

If you were unable to understand that very simple sentence, how, in heaven's name, do you imagine that you are competent interpret scripture?

You are the one making the claim that "what John had in mind in John 15 is what he wrote in John 15", which is a non-response to the question since what he wrote was about Jesus being a vine and sticks being burned. I invited you to offer exegesis and was treated to flippant snark instead.

It is a parable, it REQUIRES interpretation. I clearly explain and justify my interpretation and you dismiss it with ... well, nothing.

 

[Jim Parker]

edited for rudeness reba

 

[Jethro Bodine]

10“Go up through her vine rows and destroy,
But do not execute a complete destruction;
Strip away her branches,
For they are not the LORD’S." (Jeremiah 5:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away..." (John 15:2 NASB bold mine)

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief... (Romans 11:20 NASB bold mine)

"...but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB bold mine)

Branches that are cut out of the vine do not belong to the Lord. They are unfruitful, unbelieving, unsaved branches. Paul points out that we, gentiles, "stand by faith", but that we too can and will be cut out of the vine if we do not continue in the Lord's kindness.

Fruitfulness is indeed a matter of belief and salvation. Not because fruitfulness earns salvation, but because fruitfulness is what "accompanies salvation":

"8but if it (the ground) yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love (fruitfulness) which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints." (Hebrews 6:8-10 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

We stand by faith. But if we don't continue in God's kindness and stop believing, and thus, stop producing fruit, we will, like the Israelites, be cut out of the vine and burned as unbelieving, unsaved, unfruitful branches. The scriptures speak very plainly about this. Branches that are cut out of the vine because of unbelief and unfruitfulness simply do not belong to the Lord. In the end they will be burned.

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42 NASB)

As we can see from the whole counsel of scripture, John 10:28 is for those who continue in their faith.

 

[OzSpen]

It means "currently" from the perspective of the writer.

Surely you're familiar with the English tenses, right? The present tense in the English is equivalent to the present tense in the Greek.

So, John 5:24 means that when one believes, they possess (have) eternal life. That's when it is received.

This link will answer your questions:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

The present tenses are equivalent in Greek and English.

I happen to teach NT Greek and some of what you have stated here is incorrect. In English, the tenses primarily relate to the time of action. We add extra words to get kind of action. We could say, 'I go', but to indicate progressive action, we say, 'I am going'.

In Greek (except for the future tense), the tenses refer primarily to the kind of action.

Therefore, the present tense in Greek is not equivalent to the present tense in English. The Greek present tense refers to continual/continuous action. The time factor is of minor importance.

NT Greek grammarians, Dana & Mantey, stated this important difference when compared with English tenses:

The distinctive function of the verb is to express action. Action as presented in the expression of a verbal idea involves two elements, time of action and kind of action. That is, the action may be described as occurring at a certain time, and must be described, if intelligible, as performed in a certain manner. Tense deals with these two aspects of verbal expression, kind of action being the chief idea involved, for time is but a minor consideration in the Greek tenses.... The important element of tense in Greek is kind of action (Dana & Mantey 1955:177, 178 emphasis in original).​

What is the meaning of the present tense in Greek? The aorist tense may be represented by a dot (•). It happened. The present tense by a line (_______________), and the perfect tense by a combination of the two (•_________________) [Dana & Mantey 1955:179].

The fundamental significance of the present tense is the idea of progress. It is the linear tense. This is not, however, its exclusive significance. It is a mistake to suppose "that the durative meaning monopolises the present stem" (M. 119). Since there is no aorist tense for present time, the present tense, as used in the indicative [mood], must do service for both linear and punctiliar action. But it is to be borne in mind that the idea of present time is secondary in force of the tense. The time element belongs to the indicative [mood], where the present tense is really the "imperfect of present time," while what we know as the imperfect tense is the "imperfect of past time." The progressive [i.e. continual/repeated action] force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods, which in the nature of the case do not need any "present punctiliar" tense (Dana & Mantey 1955:181, emphasis in original).​

We can apply this understanding of the Greek present tense to John 5:24 (ESV): 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears [present tense] my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life'.

Therefore the verse means that those who hear Jesus' word and continue to believe him continue to have eternal life. The verse does not teach that a person who once believed and no longer believes has eternal life. Eternal life is for those who continue to believe. That's what the Greek teaches because the Greek present tense is not equivalent to the English present tense.

John 5:24 is in harmony with Matthew 24:9-14 (ESV),

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (emphasis added) .​

Oz

Works consulted
Dana, H E & Mantey, J R 1927/1955, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. Toronto, Canada: The Macmillan Company.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That is an heretical invention of the Heretic, John Calvin.

Scripture says:
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they have fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

That statement refers specifically to people who were "saved" (enlightened, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasters of the good word and the powers of the age to come) and who have fallen away (are no longer saved) and needs (if it were possible) to repent again.

The word "enlightened" is the term used by the early church to describe someone who had been born again.

When you "turn yourself over to God," you do not become an automaton or a puppet with no free will of your own. You still have free will and you can still walk away. It is impossible to force anyone to love anyone.

All arguments for or against OSAS rely on portions of scripture being ignored and good Hermeneutics demands that not be done and you will not drag me into the stupid, fruitless, Calvinist/Armenian Debate, both sides are wrong and God will straighten every one of us out when we arrive Home.

 

[OzSpen]

If hell as we commonly use the word ... is eternal,
is it eternal life in hell ?

That's not what Matt 25:46 (ESV) teaches: 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.

Would you redefine 'eternal punishment' as 'eternal life' for the damned?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Nah, you've got it wrong, I could not give my salvation away, it was eternal safety the moment I turned myself over to God for His purposes and use.

Bill,

It will be eternally safe so long as you continue to believe. That's what John 5:24 (ESV) teaches.

Ox

 

[OzSpen]

All arguments for or against OSAS rely on portions of scripture being ignored and good Hermeneutics demands that not be done and you will not drag me into the stupid, fruitless, Calvinist/Armenian Debate, both sides are wrong and God will straighten every one of us out when we arrive Home.

And you give not one example.

By the way, it's the Calvinist/Arminian debate. Armenians are people from Armenia.

In case you are interested, the nation of Armenia is a former Soviet republic, west of the Caspian Sea and it borders NE Turkey in the mountainous Caucasus region between Asia and Europe.

Oz

 

[chessman]

The next verse, 2 John 1:9 (RSV) says: Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son.

The 2nd letter John is written to the elect and teaches them (the elect) how to tell who are false teachers of Christ (Messiah) who do "NOT have God" as the verse states. And it tells the elect how to watch out for these false teachers. It's NOT about the elect being cut-off from the vine and becoming false teachers.

On the other hand, John 15 is Jesus' teaching about those that DO have God (are in the vine, so-to-speak). I don't know of a single person on either side of the debate that does not recognize that the branches spoken of in John 15 And yes, it teaches (says) that those branches who are in Him (i.e. they DO have God) are "taken away" and yes burned in fire.

As someone once said:
"HE is not talking about the same thing as Jesus was talking about at John 15.
Forcing the scripture to say what it does not say is is (sic) a perversion of the scripture."

The relevant question/debate about the John 15 passage (even though the OP is supposed to be about John 10:28) is what does the metaphorical phrase(s) Jesus used about a branch being "taken away", "cut off", "broken off", "pruned", etc. mean with respect to salvation (if it does have anything to do with salvation)???

Or does it mean death and being "taken away" to be with the Lord because of the truth is (the whole council of God) that resides in the John 15 branches is Him (Jesus, the vine).

2 John 1:1-2, 9-11 (LEB) The elder, to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth—and not I alone, but also all those who know the truth— because of the truth that resides in us and will be with us forever. ​

[Umm, how long will the Truth (God) that resides in the elect children reside there??? Yep, you guessed it, it will be with the elect children Forever. John's word, not mine.]

2 John 1:7-8 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist! Watch yourselves that you do not lose what we have worked for, but receive a full reward. Everyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ [God in flesh] does not have God. The one who remains in the teaching—this person has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not speak a greeting to him, because the one who speaks a greeting to him shares in his evil deeds.
​

The elect are told to watch out for the deceivers, so they do not loss what they worked for (a full reward).
The elect are NOT told to work for their salvation. (here or anywhere else).

 

[th1b.taylor]

That's not what Matt 25:46 (ESV) teaches: 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.

Would you redefine 'eternal punishment' as 'eternal life' for the damned?

Oz

41 “Then he will say to those on his left,‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The lost man will not spiritual cease to exist and looking at the single verse ripped out it's context already demonstrates that but put it back into it's context, that paragraph, it is very clear the Lost will suffer separation from God for Eternity.

 

[chessman]

By the way, it's the Calvinist/Arminian debate. Armenians are people from Armenia.

Thanks Ox

Ox

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's not what Matt 25:46 (ESV) teaches: 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'.

Would you redefine 'eternal punishment' as 'eternal life' for the damned?

Oz

Perhaps she means eternal existence(?)

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree.
However, that is not the case with OSAS.
Their teaching is: "Just believe and nothing that you do will change your saved condition."

But, isn't that what Jesus promised in John 10:28. The ONLY CONDITION for NEVER PERISHING was receiving the gift of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only way the teaching of eternal security can "harm" anyone is when it is taught WRONG. There are very serious consequences for those who rebel against God. It's called discipline, and according to Heb 12 it is PAINFUL, and can lead to a painful physical death.

Paul referenced God's divine discipline in 1 Cor 11:30.

Further, eternal reward is lost for those who are unfaithful. 2 john 8 - Look to yourselves,that we losenot those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a fullreward."

Good response.

So, how is one saved?
That's 2 John 1:8

No, 2 John 8 isn't about getting saved. One is saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Per Eph 2:8

To what do you think the word "reward" refers?

Material blessings in heaven for those who earned them.

The next verse, 2 John 1:9 (RSV) says: Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. So, as John said at John 15, he reiterates here. If you do not abide (live by, remain in) the doctrine, then you do not have Christ.

They certainly don't have fellowship with Christ or God. Why isn't the concept of having fellowship with Christ and God in your theology??

Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The idea of "abiding" is clearly about fellowship, not relationship. And since Jesus clearly said that those He GIVES eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

This means that the ONLY REQUIREMENT for never perishing is to receive what Jesus gives, which is eternal life.

Why would anyone reject these clear words of Jesus, in favor of any kind of works salvation system??

In order to "abide" in Christ, one must be "in Christ." Being "in Christ" is a term used to describe the condition of having been saved. John specifically stated that it is possible to cease to be "in Christ" or "saved."
iakov the fool

Well, there you go!! Yes, one cannot abide unless they are "in Christ".

So when does that happen? When one believes, per Eph 1:13,14
Now, how long does the sealing of the Holy Spirit last? Until the day of redemption, per Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5
Finally, what can break this sealing which is what maintains our being "in Christ"? Nothing. Or the Bible would have very clearly specified what could.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nah, you've got it wrong, I could not give my salvation away, it was eternal safety the moment I turned myself over to God for His purposes and use.

It seems to me that if giving away one's salvation, or gift of eternal life, the Bible would have quite plainly made that clear. Which the Bible doesn't even address.

So the idea of giving away one's salvation is clearly a man made doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

th1b.taylor said: ↑
Nah, you've got it wrong, I could not give my salvation away, it was eternal safety the moment I turned myself over to God for His purposes and use.

That is an heretical invention of the Heretic, John Calvin.

This wasn't contrived by Calvin. No where in Scripture is such an idea taught.

Scripture says:
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they have fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

That statement refers specifically to people who were "saved" (enlightened, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasters of the good word and the powers of the age to come) and who have fallen away (are no longer saved) and needs (if it were possible) to repent again.

The passage speaks of being renewed to repentance, not "renewed to salvation". Repentance literally from the Greek word mean "change the mind" and is used for "turning from sin". Neither of which specifically leads to salvation anyway.

The passage speaks of those who have fallen from their faith and have returned to animal sacrifice, which was tantamount to repeating the crucifixion of Christ which was an open shame for doing so.

Christ's sacrifice did away with the animal sacrifice system, which was a shadow of His sacrifice. So returning to a shadow was shameful.

It was tantamount to saying that what He did wasn't enough, and they needed to sacrifice animals. Blasphemous stuff, actually.

The word "enlightened" is the term used by the early church to describe someone who had been born again.

I have no problem understanding that this passage is about saved, born again people.

 

[chessman]

Strip away her branches,
For they are not the LORD’S." (Jeremiah 5:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

And reading on into the rest of the council of the Lord given through Jeremiah you can be counciled to find out that "strip away her branches" means their death (not loss of salvation).

Jeremiah 6:9, 22-23 Jeremiah 5:18 Thus says Yahweh of hosts: “They will thoroughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine, turn back your hand over the branches like a grape-gatherer. “But even in those days,” declares Yahweh, “I will not make you a complete destruction. Thus says Yahweh: “Look, a people is coming from the land of the north, a great nation is woken up from the farthest part of the earth. The bow and the short sword they grasp are cruel, and they show no mercy. Their sound roars like the sea, and on horses they ride, drawn up like a man for battle against you, O daughter of Zion.” ​