Is A New Moon A Sign of the Rapture?

[ezra]

The important part about Jesus return is that believers be found faithfully doing God's will.

Jesus essentially told his disciples not to focus on when He returns and the signs of his coming. He told them to be like the faithful and wise servant of Matthew 24 whom the master found doing his work when his master returned.

When Jesus comes is not our business.

Our business is to be found faithful when He comes.

The devil's business is to get us distracted so that we're chasing after signs and prophesies new end time revelations instead of being faithful servants.

So I don't care in the least about when Jesus will return because it's not my business.


iakov the fool

agreed

 

[ezra]

all good stuff

 

[Truth7t7]

The church is not mentioned in the description of the tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-19, because we won't be here.
1 Thess. 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rapture=
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Coming =
Revelation 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Two separate events.

Christ is compared to a Bridegroom and the church as the Bride of Christ. He's not going to leave his church to suffer the wrath meant for unbelievers.

Still waiting for you to answer post #38, a direct response to it's content would be appreciated.

 

[Truth7t7]

The important part about Jesus return is that believers be found faithfully doing God's will.

Jesus essentially told his disciples not to focus on when He returns and the signs of his coming. He told them to be like the faithful and wise servant of Matthew 24 whom the master found doing his work when his master returned.

When Jesus comes is not our business.

Our business is to be found faithful when He comes.

The devil's business is to get us distracted so that we're chasing after signs and prophesies new end time revelations instead of being faithful servants.

So I don't care in the least about when Jesus will return because it's not my business.


iakov the fool

The believer is instructed to "Watch" and observe the signs of the second coming, it's your personal addition that has person's being distracted by this instruction.

Matthew 24:32-33KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6KJV
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Luke 21:28KJV
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Revelation 16:15KJV
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[Jim Parker]

The believer is instructed to "Watch" and observe the signs of the second coming, it's your personal addition that has person's being distracted by this instruction.

Matthew 24:32-33KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6KJV
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Luke 21:28KJV
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Revelation 16:15KJV
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

My point, which people seem to be missing, is that OUR MOST IMPORTANT TASK IS: to be faithfully doing God's will when he returns.
Understanding the signs of his return is secondary.

 

[Jim Parker]

The church is not mentioned in the description of the tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-19, because we won't be here.

Rev 7:13-14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
No one can come "out of" the great tribulation unless they have been IN the great tribulation.

Mat 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
For the sake of the elect (that's the Church) the days of the great tribulation will be shortened. The days would not need to be shortened for the sake of the elect if the elect were not IN the tribulation.

Mat 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elect, the Church, are gathered AFTER the great tribulation at the second coming of Christ.

 

[Randy]

He said as much.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I didn't "fault Jesus." He was intentionally vague on many occasions and said so Himself.
Mat 13:10-15 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.​

He explained things and spoke plainly to His Disciples. And the NT was written for future generations and the motive wasn't to witness vagueness. The Spirit guides us into all truth.

The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

To the divisive Jesus may have shown Himself shrewd.


Randy

 

[Truth7t7]

The church is not mentioned in the description of the tribulation in Revelation chapters 6-19, because we won't be here.
1 Thess. 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rapture=
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2nd Coming =
Revelation 19:11-14
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Two separate events.

Christ is compared to a Bridegroom and the church as the Bride of Christ. He's not going to leave his church to suffer the wrath meant for unbelievers.

The Church is seen in Revelation 16:15 below.

Revelation 16:15KJV
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

Still waiting for you to answer post #38, a direct response to it's content would be appreciated.

My response is that this could be a reference to the last day of the Church age or the last day when Jesus finally returns. Either way, you're ignoring the fact that there are two distinct events described in the Bible - one where Jesus returns with a shout and meets us in the clouds and another where he returns on a white horse with his armies.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

Rev 7:13-14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
No one can come "out of" the great tribulation unless they have been IN the great tribulation.

Mat 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
For the sake of the elect (that's the Church) the days of the great tribulation will be shortened. The days would not need to be shortened for the sake of the elect if the elect were not IN the tribulation.

Mat 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elect, the Church, are gathered AFTER the great tribulation at the second coming of Christ.

Nope.
You think people aren't going to be saved during the tribulation? Why would there be two witnesses if there weren't going to be new Christians saved during the tribulation? That's who John sees in that Revelation 7 quote.

You see, God is so unwilling that that any should perish that he even provides an opportunity to receive the gift of salvation up to the last minute. (2 Peter 3:9).
Please comprehend the depth of Christ's love for the church!
Ephesians 3:17-19
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(btw, you see the description of the cross there?)

There are two separate and distinct events - the church being caught up in the clouds and the return of Jesus on his white horse with his armies.

Nothing I say is going to convince you, I'm sure, so whatever . .when we're caught up in the clouds hopefully some day soon I'll be the one waving and saying "I told you so!"

 

[Jim Parker]

You think people aren't going to be saved during the tribulation?

I have no idea how you got that idea. I said nothing of the kind.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Spirit guides us into all truth.

Which begs the question; "Since the Spirit guides believers in all truth, why are there tens of thousands of denominations all assuming that they have the truly true and really real truth to which they were guided by the same Holy Spirit?"

If the words of Jesus are so clear, then why do people come up with so many different interpretations?

Indeed, if His words are so clear, then why do they need any interpretation at all?

 

[Truth7t7]

My response is that this could be a reference to the last day of the Church age or the last day when Jesus finally returns. Either way, you're ignoring the fact that there are two distinct events described in the Bible - one where Jesus returns with a shout and meets us in the clouds and another where he returns on a white horse with his armies.

"The Last Day When Jesus Returns"

Your 100% correct on your second claim, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 represents the "Second Advent" and "Last Day Resurrection" not a secret rapture of the Church to heaven.

There are no earthly day's beyond the "Last Day" your pre-trib rapture is now gone.

You may want this to be a different event, but it's clearly not.

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" just as Jesus Christ taught.

"The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believers in Christ above, takes place on "The Last Day", there will be no pre-tribulation rapture of the Church to heaven.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

My response is that this could be a reference to the last day of the Church age or the last day when Jesus finally returns. Either way, you're ignoring the fact that there are two distinct events described in the Bible - one where Jesus returns with a shout and meets us in the clouds and another where he returns on a white horse with his armies.

Jesus Christ returns with the Angels in the final judgment, eternal kingdom

Verses 31-32, Jesus Returns with the angels, the final judgment takes place

Verse 34, The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41, The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46, The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34.

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Jim Parker]

There are no earthly day's beyond the "Last Day" your pre-trib rapture is now gone.

Exactly.

Mat 24:29-31
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

What neither of you has answered is why one passage describes the Lord descending with a shout and catching us up and the other as the Lord on a white horse with his armies? Why would we meet him in the air and then immediately return to earth? And where do you imagine the marriage supper of the Lamb fits into all this? Would be a pretty terrible celebration if the Bride isn't there!

How do you witness to people about the love and Salvation Christ offers and believe we are appointed to the same wrath the rest of the world is?

 

[Jim Parker]

What neither of you has answered is why one passage describes the Lord descending with a shout and catching us up and the other as the Lord on a white horse with his armies?

One is a statement of doctrine by Paul. You can take this statement literally.
The other is a rendering of a highly symbolic ecstatic vision into human language to the best of his ability by John. This passage is symbolic; do not take it literally.

And, the two passages are not talking about the same event.
Paul was talking about the second coming of Christ.
John was relating his vision of the defeat of evil.

 

[Truth7t7]

What neither of you has answered is why one passage describes the Lord descending with a shout and catching us up and the other as the Lord on a white horse with his armies? Why would we meet him in the air and then immediately return to earth? And where do you imagine the marriage supper of the Lamb fits into all this? Would be a pretty terrible celebration if the Bride isn't there!

How do you witness to people about the love and Salvation Christ offers and believe we are appointed to the same wrath the rest of the world is?

Lisa the "Second Advent" is described in several ways?

There is only one future second advent of Jesus Christ to earth, one.

Jesus Returns In Fire?

Jesus Returns in clouds of heaven?

Jesus Returns with angels and saints?

Jesus Returns as lightning?

Jesus Returns as a Thief?

 

[Randy]

Which begs the question; "Since the Spirit guides believers in all truth, why are there tens of thousands of denominations all assuming that they have the truly true and really real truth to which they were guided by the same Holy Spirit?"

If the words of Jesus are so clear, then why do people come up with so many different interpretations?

Indeed, if His words are so clear, then why do they need any interpretation at all?

I point the finger at man. Rev 11 is a good example. How many don't believe the two witnesses are representative of two human witnesses? Was Rev 11 really that obscure? I don't find a pretribulation rapture in scripture. Yet its taught.
And the core message Jesus taught is not vague nor meant to be vague. His enemies understood at some point Jesus stated He would rise in three days. Thats why they went to Pilate and asked him to post guards at the entrance so that His body couldn't be stolen from the tomb. Its still empty.

WE have a NT the apostles didn't. And at the beginning there were no established gentile churches. That all had to be started from new believers. The HS was there among them.
Randy

 

[Truth7t7]

I point the finger at man. Rev 11 is a good example. How many don't believe the two witnesses are representative of two human witnesses? Was Rev 11 really that obscure? I don't find a pretribulation rapture in scripture. Yet its taught.
And the core message Jesus taught is not vague nor meant to be vague. His enemies understood at some point Jesus stated He would rise in three days. Thats why they went to Pilate and asked him to post guards at the entrance so that His body couldn't be stolen from the tomb. Its still empty.

WE have a NT the apostles didn't. And at the beginning there were no established gentile churches. That all had to be started from new believers. The HS was there among them.
Randy

There is no pre-trib rapture taught in scripture, the invention of John N. Darby in the 1830's and propagated by the C. I. Scofield reference bible 1909

Dispy's use 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as an explanation for this teaching.

This is nothing more than the "Second Advent" and "Last Day Resurrection"

The resurrection of the believer takes place on "The Last Day" just as Jesus Christ taught.

"The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believers in Christ above, takes place on "The Last Day", there will be no pre-tribulation rapture of the Church to heaven.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.