Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[joseph lentz]

I'm sorry you see it this way..

Jesus said, this is my blood, the blood of the new covenant... Matthew 26.

This is not the mosaic covenant which instituted the "law" given at Mt. Sinia.

Rather, it is the new covenant spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah in Jer 31:31. I can't recall where Isaiah writes about it.

The book of Hebrews is all about this new, and better covenant that is "in Christ".

And Paul gives an analogy of a will.. and Jesus tells a parable about new wine skins.... and patches being sewed onto garments...

All of these speak to a new covenant... and everyone is welcome.

Cheers.

Thank you

 

[Corn Pop]

I'm sorry you see it this way..

Jesus said, this is my blood, the blood of the new covenant... Matthew 26.

This is not the mosaic covenant which instituted the "law" given at Mt. Sinia.

Rather, it is the new covenant spoken by Isaiah and Jeremiah in Jer 31:31. I can't recall where Isaiah writes about it.

The book of Hebrews is all about this new, and better covenant that is "in Christ".

And Paul gives an analogy of a will.. and Jesus tells a parable about new wine skins.... and patches being sewed onto garments...

All of these speak to a new covenant... and everyone is welcome.

Cheers.

So when coming out of one covenant and baptised into another one must be born again. So why do people who were not under the first covenant need to be born again.

Why did Christ say he only come for the lost sheep of Israel.

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Born again for those under the first covenant. Jesus was talking directly to the people of Israel.

Gentiles get born of the water, and the spirit they recieve they think is the Holy Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

So when coming out of one covenant and baptised into another one must be born again. So why do people who were not under the first covenant need to be born again.

Why did Christ say he only come for the lost sheep of Israel.

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Born again for those under the first covenant. Jesus was talking directly to the people of Israel.

You ask very good questions, and they are easy to answer, but require much time to point you to the scriptures that will provide the answer.

Please keep this in mind. The Bible is a story book, so you are always best to interpret the Bible within its narrative. This doesn't take study, but it does take a long time to read it within is narrative. Once you understand the narrative, then the proper questions will arrive.

If you are willing, and have time and patience, because my time on this forum is scarce, we can take this journey together. But if you already have the answers and ask with rhetoric, it will only end in frustration, and I don't have time for that.

Peace

 

[Corn Pop]

Many gentiles get born of the water and then follow the Law thinking they have the Spirit and waiting for Jesus return and in the mean time must serve, obey, and do the commandments of a christ that is the image of a god who exalts himself above humanity. Thats not Christ, that is satan, Christ does not exalt himself above humanity, he raises people up.

 

[th1b.taylor]

dirtfarmer here

Is water baptism accomplished after Spiritual baptism? My understanding of the word "baptize, baptism" is placing into. When I was born from above, I was full engulfed by Jesus Christ. My self died, so the life that I had then was gone and I was completely a new creation and Jesus Christ was my life. As scripture states in Galatians 2:20, " I am now crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

1 Corinthians 12:13, " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.". I don't see water mentioned any where, only Spirit, and by that Spirit we are placed into the body of Christ.

It is my belief that it is when we believe that Christ die for us, in our place, is when the Spirit "places us in the body of Christ" not sometime later in the water used to baptize by humans.

I have witnessed it on both sides, before and after. I was saved before I wanted to make the Public Profession, A very very old Sunday School Teacher of children had been baptized before she could teach the children, at the age of 12 and one Dunday our Pastor asked the question after the Invitation, "How much longer will you wait?" She jumped up and shouted, "Not one moment longer," and she went forward for the Salvation she had taught to the children all those years.

 

[Nathan]

Many gentiles get born of the water and then follow the Law thinking they have the Spirit and waiting for Jesus return and in the mean time must serve, obey, and do the commandments of a christ that is the image of a god who exalts himself above humanity. Thats not Christ, that is satan, Christ does not exalt himself above humanity, he raises people up.

Christ is exalted above all men. Listen, if you don't want to follow Christ so be it. Don't push the foresaking of His perfect love for humans on here.

 

[Corn Pop]

Christ is exalted above all men. Listen, if you don't want to follow Christ so be it. Don't push the foresaking of His perfect love for humans on here.

Perfect love?. God is perfect unconditional love, he does not have any conditions attached. Only satan is the image of a god who exalts himself above humanity and command people worship, obey, and follow him. I follow the God behind the rule of Law in the Garden Christ and his Father. The God of unconditional, not the god of Adams curse, the god of the knowledge of good and evil, the god of blessings and curses, the god of light and darkness, the god of the rule of law. Just the God of love, of good, of blessings, of Liberty, unconditional.

Although the serpant does have a purpose and was used for a reason, to teach mankind.

 

[Nathan]

Perfect love?. God is perfect unconditional love, he does not have any conditions attached. Only satan is the image of a god who exalts himself above humanity and command people worship, obey, and follow him. I follow the God behind the rule of Law in the Garden Christ and his Father. The God of unconditional, not the god of Adams curse, the god of the knowledge of good and evil, the god of blessings and curses, the god of light and darkness, the god of the rule of law. Although the serpant does have a purpose and was used for a reason, to teach mankind.

I have never in my life met someone so opposed to Gods eternal law as you are.

Revelation 12:17 (KJV)
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Corn Pop]

I have never in my life met someone so opposed to Gods eternal law as you are.

Revelation 12:17 (KJV)
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And what are Jesus commandments. Pure natural spiritual 'law', unconditional love. Christs commandment is unconditional love. Does one have to be commanded to just be a human being and let there natural light shine, the good inside them, as Jesus talked about and that is impossible under the Law everyone is too busy accusing others over what's right and wrong, its called politics.

God has placed his spiritual law, the same as Christ walked, in every mans heart and mind.

Good and evil. Christs commandment is to let the good shine.

They wanted to stone the woman through the law, Jesus said stop, what are you doing, let her free, give her life.

 

[Nathan]

And what are Jesus commandments. Pure natural spiritual 'law', unconditional love. Christs commandment is unconditional love. Does one have to be commanded to just be a human being and let there natural light shine, the good inside them, as Jesus talked about and that is impossible under the Law everyone is too busy accusing others over what's right and wrong, its called politics.

God has placed his spiritual law, the same as Christ walked, in every mans heart and mind.

Good and evil. Christs commandment is to let the good shine.

They wanted to stone the woman through the law, Jesus said stop, what are you doing, let her free, give her life.

Are you talking about your goodness or Gods goodness, that's good in you?

Look again at the passages. It is the commandments of God that satan is against, not the natural "human" love. Do you have natural light in you?

 

[Corn Pop]

Are you talking about your goodness or Gods goodness, that's good in you?

Look again at the passages. It is the commandments of God that satan is against, not the natural "human" love. Do you have natural light in you?

God's goodness because he dwells in his temple, inside humanity, not my goodness I have none I was created. God gave the breath of life and Adam become a living being. Christ is the life and light of man. People have just thrown a veil over the true God that dwells inside them. Everyone has good in them. No one is inherently evil.

Its what the bible says. Underneath the parables.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.

Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38

Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43

I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16


So, which Baptism is being referred to here?

• The Baptism when we are born again, and Baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.
• The Baptism whereby a person Baptizes you in water.
• The Baptism whereby Jesus Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Which of these do you feel the thief on the cross was baptized in?

• Into Jesus
• in the Holy Spirit
• in water

JLB

 

[Nathan]

God's goodness because he dwells in his temple, inside humanity, not my goodness I have none I was created. God gave the breath of life and Adam become a living being. Christ is the life and light of man. People have just thrown a veil over the true God that dwells inside them. Everyone has good in them. No one is inherently evil.

Its what the bible says. Underneath the parables.

Dan, do you love the commandments of God? Do you believe it is sin to keep the commandments of God? I'm talking about the only God, not satan.

Do you believe it is wrong for a believer to be baptized?

 

[Corn Pop]

Dan, do you love the commandments of God? Do you believe it is sin to keep the commandments of God? I'm talking about the only God, not satan.

Do you believe it is wrong for a believer to be baptized?

God's spiritual law is good. The only commandments of God is unconditional love. That is Christs commandments. Love your creator and love your neighbour. So in reality Christ is saying all you have to do is let the goodness inside you, where God dwells, do good works, he took away the sin from the foundation of the world.

Its not hard to do good is it. Its a commandment that doesn't need to be a commandment. People either do it to try please Christ because they fall under the trap of Law and will stumble and feel convicted under the Law "Look at all those poor people if i dont feed them all I feel guilty and im not good, Christ is not pleased with me", or, just walk your life and go where Christ takes you and do good because its just better living a life doing good and living in harmony and peace.

The laws given, the knowledge of good and evil, the serpants fruit, Adams curse, there all the same, thats the stumbling block.

 

[Corn Pop]

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16


So, which Baptism is being referred to here?

• The Baptism when we are born again, and Baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.
• The Baptism whereby a person Baptizes you in water.
• The Baptism whereby Jesus Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Which of these do you feel the thief on the cross was baptized in?

• Into Jesus
• in the Holy Spirit
• in water

JLB

Water. Fire. Spirit.

Batized in water as a symbol of faithfullness, refined by fire, lead by the Spirit. The Serpants tongue. Fire and Water. Its not the full revelation of the truth. Its part of the journey but not the destination. Its wondering threw the desert wilderness.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

 

[stovebolts]

Many gentiles get born of the water and then follow the Law thinking they have the Spirit and waiting for Jesus return and in the mean time must serve, obey, and do the commandments of a christ that is the image of a god who exalts himself above humanity. Thats not Christ, that is satan, Christ does not exalt himself above humanity, he raises people up.

I'm sure there are those like that out there

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16


So, which Baptism is being referred to here?

• The Baptism when we are born again, and Baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.
• The Baptism whereby a person Baptizes you in water.
• The Baptism whereby Jesus Baptizes you in the Holy Spirit.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


Which of these do you feel the thief on the cross was baptized in?

• Into Jesus
• in the Holy Spirit
• in water

JLB

what a glorious day when men begin to reconcile this, and realize that there is only one baptism...

Don't think too critically, or you'll miss it. But that's what happens when we try to guess which way the wind will blow tomorrow... and say that it only blows west.

 

[stovebolts]

Water. Fire. Spirit.

Batized in water as a symbol of faithfullness, refined by fire, lead by the Spirit. The Serpants tongue. Fire and Water. Its not the full revelation of the truth. Its part of the journey but not the destination. Its wondering threw the desert wilderness.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

And what does fire do.... but painfully refine us.

 

[JLB]

Water. Fire. Spirit.

Batized in water as a symbol of faithfullness, refined by fire, lead by the Spirit. The Serpants tongue. Fire and Water. Its not the full revelation of the truth. Its part of the journey but not the destination. Its wondering threw the desert wilderness.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

I'm sure there are those like that out there

what a glorious day when men begin to reconcile this, and realize that there is only one baptism...

Don't think too critically, or you'll miss it. But that's what happens when we try to guess which way the wind will blow tomorrow... and say that it only blows west.

Don't guess brother, just read the word, and allow the Spirit to teach you.

That way you won't be blown about by every wind of doctrine, that is not from God.


11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16



JLB

 

[Winnie]

I was wondering if anybody can do a greek lookup on the word 'fire'. I heard it meant basically more of God. When people say they are on fire for God. I was thinking specifically of John the baptist saying Jesus would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire.
My big computer isnt working and im not going to try it on my tablet. What a mess. Ive actually NEVER done it yet.

 

[Nathan]

God's spiritual law is good. The only commandments of God is unconditional love. That is Christs commandments. Love your creator and love your neighbour. So in reality Christ is saying all you have to do is let the goodness inside you, where God dwells, do good works, he took away the sin from the foundation of the world.

Its not hard to do good is it. Its a commandment that doesn't need to be a commandment. People either do it to try please Christ because they fall under the trap of Law and will stumble and feel convicted under the Law "Look at all those poor people if i dont feed them all I feel guilty and im not good, Christ is not pleased with me", or, just walk your life and go where Christ takes you and do good because its just better living a life doing good and living in harmony and peace.

The laws given, the knowledge of good and evil, the serpants fruit, Adams curse, there all the same, thats the stumbling block.

Dan, I think I do understand where your coming from - I mean, I think I can see what you are saying. Sometimes its hard for me to understand your thoughts, but this helps.

Don't you think that, if what you say, was all believers needed to know, that we would see countless letters in the NT that indicate such?