Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[eddif]

Baptism removes original sin.
Did we inherit original sin or did we just inherit the death that it brings to our soul?
I remember reading that we cannot be RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin, although its effects inflict death to our spirit, which was lost at that point and now all are born sinful.
(the spirit is regained when being born from above and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Lounge.
I guess I can speculate.

Water baptism confesses our sin, and leaves a great need in our life. We need forgiveness for the sins we just confessed.
Believe in the one who comes after me (John the baptists words).

Belief in the works of Jesus is the source of our righteousness and you will be saved. This stage leaves us with a need for power to get the job done.

Now we have:
Confessed our sins / repented
Believed in The work of Jesus.

What do we need now? :
Die to self. The works we do we do, we do by the Son who gave himself for us. His quickening spirit allows us to give the credit to the Godhead. The second Adam became a quickiig spirit. We are not the leader of the band. We teach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Mississippi swamp meetings message:
Repent
Believe in Jesus
Baptized in Holy Spirit and fire (purifying fire).

What credit do we get? We are reckoned dead. Faith in self? No faith in the quickening Soirit Jesus became. Who shall deleaver me from this body of death? The last trump sees the body changed. Credit where credit is due.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering dirtfarmer here

As I understand, when Christ was crucified on the cross, the sin of the world was paid for by his blood( life is in the blood). It is the sin of unbelief that consigns and condemns a person to the lake of fire. Baptism for the remission of sin is a "kingdom" thing, not a "heir" thing. It was John that preached "baptism for repentance of sin". Paul, the apostle, preached that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. Paul also preached the believer is dead with Christ in his crucifixion but made alive by the life of the risen savior. In the gospel of the kingdom there is nothing about the crucifixion, burial, or resurrection.

May be a comparison of the "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace" would be in order, as a bible study.

Done.
Lounge.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lounge.
I guess I can speculate.

Water baptism confesses our sin, and leaves a great need in our life. We need forgiveness for the sins we just confessed.
Believe in the one who comes after me (John the baptists words).

Belief in the works of Jesus is the source of our righteousness and you will be saved. This stage leaves us with a need for power to get the job done.

Now we have:
Confessed our sins / repented
Believed in The work of Jesus.

What do we need now? :
Die to self. The works we do we do, we do by the Son who gave himself for us. His quickening spirit allows us to give the credit to the Godhead. The second Adam became a quickiig spirit. We are not the leader of the band. We teach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Mississippi swamp meetings message:
Repent
Believe in Jesus
Baptized in Holy Spirit and fire (purifying fire).

What credit do we get? We are reckoned dead. Faith in self? No faith in the quickening Soirit Jesus became. Who shall deleaver me from this body of death? The last trump sees the body changed. Credit where credit is due.

eddif

Lounge it is.

 

[th1b.taylor]

hello wondering dirtfarmer here

As I understand, when Christ was crucified on the cross, the sin of the world was paid for by his blood( life is in the blood). It is the sin of unbelief that consigns and condemns a person to the lake of fire. Baptism for the remission of sin is a "kingdom" thing, not a "heir" thing. It was John that preached "baptism for repentance of sin". Paul, the apostle, preached that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. Paul also preached the believer is dead with Christ in his crucifixion but made alive by the life of the risen savior. In the gospel of the kingdom there is nothing about the crucifixion, burial, or resurrection.

May be a comparison of the "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace" would be in order, as a bible study.

Amen, I tend to get, "Really?" from people when I explain that I was on stage the night I was overcome with the Holy Spirit, and folks, whe nthe words of the Old Testament in the language of the King James, suddenly reads as smoothly and as clearly as the Sunday Funnies, you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, I had never understood a thing about the Old Testament that I ad not heard preached until that night.

I wasn't baptized for another three weeks but I knew my sins were forgiven and the entire world look new to me.

 

[eddif]

I am not sure if this goes here or in the Theology Forum.

Romans 10:9,10 "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter saith unto them,"Repent,and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

Phillip baptized the man from Ethiopia Acts 8:36-38

Yet the thief on the cross was not baptized Luke 23:43

I get confused when this subject is brought up in Sunday School.

I Corinthians 14:26 KJV
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Sunday School?

If the class individual leaders (plural) are prepared, then there should not be confusion. Not problem free, but not confusion. The subject matter on different levels should answer questions.

I Corinthians 14:25 KJV
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Read the whole area in order.

Sometimes preparation works, and sometimes revelation seems to occur on the spot.

Beforehand it might help to have some level of understanding of:
John's baptism
The baptism of Jesus
Holy Spirit baptism
Baptism of suffering
Baptism of fire
Others ?

I Corinthians 10:2 KJV
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Which brings up the water and blood coming out of the side of Jesus. Was not the thief closer to baptism than a cloud and the sea.

Redneck
eddif

 

[stovebolts]

I don't think we are created with His Spirit infused in ours. Now, if your speaking of the Spirit of God, living inside the life of the believer upon receiving God's faith - then yes, we have His Spirit inside.

But before that, there is no Spirit of God inside man. There is no good in man apart from the Spirit, and there never has been. It has always been mankind living through God that good came from. Even in the Garden, it was only because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Life that Good came about. After they no longer had access to it, and throughout the rest of the days of mankind, this good only comes through faith.

That faith is "the way" of which you speak. Its not a faith of ourselves, but rather a faith God gives us - and we must receive. That's exactly why it is impossible for man to have anything in himself apart from God.

Sorry for the delay in responding. And happy resurrection holiday!

I want you to stop and think about what you've been taught...
ecc 12:7 says
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We see here that man was formed from the dust of the earth, and the breath of God made him a living soul. Gen 2:7

I contend that every human has that divine spark... the very spirit of God.

Now, do not confuse this with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says, if you who are evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will your father in heaven...

My point is this, we know good, because we have good in us. And your right, we can not do good without God for God is in all. Please see eph 4:6.

I could cite passage after passage affirming this. However, I think your not aware that God is inside every human and it's easy to confuse because we are taught only Christians have the Holy Spirit, so we don't think about God as The Spirit and it's difficult to imagine that every human has Gods spirit. But if you search the scriptures, you will see that it is true. Why else would Solomon write that when man dies, his body goes back to the dust, and the spirit back to God....

 

[Jim Parker]

I contend that every human has that divine spark... the very spirit of God.
Now, do not confuse this with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

OK
Now explain in detail the difference between "the spirit of God" and the Holy Spirit."

My point is this, we know good, because we have good in us.

We were created good.
The fall didn't destroy that. We just picked up a parasite called "sin."
Rom 7:17-20 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh.
I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.

iakov the fool

 

[stovebolts]

As far as baptism goes,...
Anything you HAVE to do is a work. And to work means you collect a wage.
Anything you get to participate in is not only a gift, but a blessing as well.

If you HAVE to get baptized, then it's a work. However, if it's something you get to participate in, then it's by Gods good grace.

Romans 6 outlines what baptism is. It's participating in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. We die with Christ, and are raised new in life, and every one of our sins is forgiven. We have new garments... and we are assured the gift of the Holy Spirit. But this is just the beginning, because just as the ministry of Jesus started with His baptism, our journey in the footsteps of Jesus is just beginning.
This is why Jesus tells us to not only baptism, but to then also make deciples.

Jesus was pretty clear... baptism. Why? So they can participate in the newness of life with Christ with the Holy Spirit, and then they learn to walk as Jesus walked.

It's about identity. Jesus knew that his believers needed to be grounded in Him.... and by way of example tells a story of seed. Some fell on stony ground, some fell in thorns, but some fell on fertile ground.

It's about identity, and being with Jesus, and knowing he is IN you, no matter what. Baptism, if taught correctly brings a new believer directly in contact with deepest reality found in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you HAVE to get baptized, then it's a work.

Jesus said to baptize.
So when you get baptized, you are obeying the one whom you claim is your Lord.
If you refuse to get baptized then you are NOT obeying Jesus and it is prima facie evidence that He is NOT your Lord.
It' really just that simple.
You don't need to go screaming out the door every time you see the word work.
You were created to do good works. (Eph 2:10)
Jesus told us to do good works. (Mat 5:16)
We will be judged according to our works. (Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1John 2:17)
Do you want eternal life?
Do your works and don't worry about seeming to be "too KATH-lick."

iakov the fool

 

[stovebolts]

OK
Now explain in detail the difference between "the spirit of God" and the Holy Spirit."

We were created good.
The fall didn't destroy that. We just picked up a parasite called "sin."
Rom 7:17-20 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh.
I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.

iakov the fool

First, I agree we are created good, yet as you say we have a parisite. Amen on our agreement.

If you look at the original language of Genesis, wind and spirit are almost always interchangeable. It is almost as if the language is telling us that Gods Spirit is the breath of the earth as us cycles from the east and from the west.

We see something similar in the Greek, especially in John 3. Wind and Spirit are the same Greek word.

Now then, in Genesis, all creatures are a soul according to the original language, however, when it came to humanity, God actively participated in our creation.

If you look at the creation account, God empowers the water to bring forth fish, and to the land he empowers the earth to bring forth beasts of the earth. But when it came to humanity, he himself formed man, and breathed into him a living soul.

This is what makes us special in Gods eye. We are not just souls, but living souls created from God.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus said to baptize.
So when you get baptized, you are obeying the one whom you claim is your Lord.
If you refuse to get baptized then you are NOT obeying Jesus and it is prima facie evidence that He is NOT your Lord.
It' really just that simple.
You don't need to go screaming out the door every time you see the word work.
You were created to do good works. (Eph 2:10)
Jesus told us to do good works. (Mat 5:16)
We will be judged according to our works. (Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1John 2:17)
Do you want eternal life?
Do your works and don't worry about seeming to be "too KATH-lick."

iakov the fool

We see in the Torah that an offering would remove sin. Yet the Hebrew writer says the blood of bulls and goats couldn't.
If you look at this logically, God becomes a liar in the Torah. So who is right? Perhaps it's about context. As with baptism, you enter the water with a pricked heart and a conscience toward God knowing it's a life long commitment. It's a union, if you want to look at it like that.

If a person isn't responding to the gospel, much like the Eunich that says, look, there is water, what prevents me? Or those who crucifiedcJesus and realized their mistake and cried out, what must we do to make this right?

If it doesnt come from the heart, then it's not something one wants to do, but feels the must do, and normally the focus isn't on Jesus, but rather it's centered on becoming a member of a church, and not The Church.

We shouldn't look at baptism as a must do, but rather as, we get to do.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is almost as if the language is telling us that Gods Spirit is the breath of the earth as us cycles from the east and from the west.

Uhhh....lemme think on that.....No.
The earth doesn't have breath. It's dirt. Dirt doesn't breathe.

We shouldn't look at baptism as a must do, but rather as, we get to do.

Why not as a "must do"? It IS a "must do."
Jesus commanded it and when the crowd asked Peter "What MUST we do?" (Acts 2) he said, "Get baptized."
Why are Protestants so afraid of anything having to do with "doing"?
What you DO or DO NOT DO will determine whether you get eternal life or condemnation.
(Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17)
So, get on with the doing!

iakov the fool

 

[stovebolts]

Baptism removes original sin.
Did we inherit original sin or did we just inherit the death that it brings to our soul?
I remember reading that we cannot be RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin, although its effects inflict death to our spirit, which was lost at that point and now all are born sinful.
(the spirit is regained when being born from above and receiving the Holy Spirit.

While we may be conceived in sin, which is to say we enjoy the act of sex and were not thinking of children while having sex because we are being consumed by our own sexual Averie, we can say that we are beautifully and wonderfully made, and God knew us as we were knitted together in our mothers woumb.

 

[stovebolts]

Uhhh....lemme think on that.....No.
The earth doesn't have breath. It's dirt. Dirt doesn't breathe.

Why not as a "must do"? It IS a "must do."
Jesus commanded it and when the crowd asked Peter "What MUST we do?" (Acts 2) he said, "Get baptized."
Why are Protestants so afraid of anything having to do with "doing"?
What you DO or DO NOT DO will determine whether you get eternal life or condemnation.
(Mat 25:31-46; John 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17)
So, get on with the doing!

iakov the fool

We are made of dirt and water, yet we breath. Look up the word spirit in Gen, and you will see it is the same word as wind in the original language. Same goes for John 3.
It is not I who says this, but the original language. That we have translations only goes to show that a setvent isn't above its master.

As far as a worry of doing, whatvyou fail to recognize is that I am not against doing. For, faith without works is dead, so we must do. But do we do because we have to, or because we get to?
Jesus said his yoke was easy, and it's not because the work disappeared... it's about your heart, and your spirit. It's about hope and joy, even in times of trial.

Understand?

 

[Jim Parker]

Did we inherit original sin or did we just inherit the death that it brings to our soul?

We inherited the proclivity to sin. We don't seem to be able to help ourselves.
Sin is like a parasite that effects our flesh, driving it to sin.
Rom 7:15 -20
I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.

Adam's sin was HIS sin. We each commit our own sin and earn the wages of sin which is death.

iakov the fool

 

[stovebolts]

I would add that faith, isn't just easy believing. Faith is actually trusting Jesus to the point of doing what Jesus did. Do we have faith to get out of the boat? But more so, when we do get out of the boat, do we have faith Jesus will rescue us when our faith becomes weak?

Peter wanted to be like Jesus, so he got out of the boat. For a moment, he was doing as Jesuscwas doing. And then doubt hit, and Jesuscwas there for him.

So yes, we have work to do, but we have to have faith to do it....

 

[Jim Parker]

We see in the Torah that an offering would remove sin.

No. The sin would be forgiven. (Lev 4:20, 26, 35; 5:10, 13; 19:22; Num 15:25)
But the wages of sin was still death.

If you look at this logically, God becomes a liar in the Torah.

No. God's forgiving sin is not the same as redeeming man from the consequence of sin which is death.

As with baptism, you enter the water with a pricked heart and a conscience toward God knowing it's a life long commitment. I

You enter the water with the "body of sin" which is united to Christ in His death and burial. (Ro 6:3-4)
That "old man of sin" is dead and buried in baptism.
The "new man" who has "put on Christ" rises from the waters of baptism, born again to new life "in Christ.

If it doesnt come from the heart, then it's not something one wants to do, but feels the must do, and normally the focus isn't on Jesus, but rather it's centered on becoming a member of a church, and not The Church.

That is particularly the case when Baptism is not taught to be what scripture says it is.

We shouldn't look at baptism as a must do, but rather as, we get to do.

Jesus said that unless a person is born again of water and of spirit, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (john 3)
Baptism is the "born of water part." (Raised to new life in Christ)
I'd say that, if you want to get to heaven, baptism is a "must."

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

We are made of dirt and water, yet we breath.

But we are not breathing bags of dirt. We are made up of the elements of the earth.

Look up the word spirit in Gen, and you will see it is the same word as wind in the original language.

Uh-huh. True, the word is part of the language and, like all languages, words often have more than one meaning.
But, because we have some experience with language, we can discern the meaning of the word by the context.
So the "breath of life" (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) can be understood as both breath of God and spirit of God but probably not the wind of God.

But do we do because we have to, or because we get to?

God says we should. We can choose to do what He says and spend eternity with Him or do what the devil likes and spend eternity with him.
pick one

iakov the fool

 

[Pegasus]

We see in the Torah that an offering would remove sin. Yet the Hebrew writer says the blood of bulls and goats couldn't.
If you look at this logically, God becomes a liar in the Torah. So who is right? Perhaps it's about context. As with baptism, you enter the water with a pricked heart and a conscience toward God knowing it's a life long commitment. It's a union, if you want to look at it like that.

If a person isn't responding to the gospel, much like the Eunich that says, look, there is water, what prevents me? Or those who crucifiedcJesus and realized their mistake and cried out, what must we do to make this right?

If it doesnt come from the heart, then it's not something one wants to do, but feels the must do, and normally the focus isn't on Jesus, but rather it's centered on becoming a member of a church, and not The Church.

We shouldn't look at baptism as a must do, but rather as, we get to do.

Fully tracking your approach. Good post.

 

[Lee2000]

Hi everyone,

Spirit is rhema wind or breath

the reason why man has a eternal soul is because when God breathed into to Adams nostrils

he transferred part of him self/Spirit into Adams empty vessel and that is how and why Adam became a living soul

because God cannot die is the reason why the soul cannot die and is held accountable by the thoughts words and deeds committed by us in our vessels or bodies

The spirit enters a person at conception and is conformed to the image characteristics comprehension and personality of the vessel or person as they develop grow and mature here on earth

when the vessel passes away the soul leaves the vessel with the image characteristics comprehension and personality of the vessel or person

its like water poured into an ice cube tray and becoming the shape image and design of the tray

but after its frozen it leaves the vessel as an ice cube still made up of water

but transformed from its original composition to the vessels shape image and design

the vessel returns to the earth and the spirit now the soul of a person returns back to the spiritual realm either home with the father until Jesus returns or in hell awaiting judgement day

Just food for thought

Peace