Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[Nathan]

I completely understand what you are saying and your point of view.
However, you do take a few liberties, such as assuming it's ok for anyone to live the way they want.
Anyway, knowing what I know, I will play devils advocate, unless of course it turns to strife. In that case, I will be like snaglepuss because I do not wish to stir contention.

The Good news is that Jesus rose from the grave, and he invites all to join him. As there are consequences for behavior, there is consequence for sin.

The wages of sin is death, and death came through Adam for disobedience to Gods command. As such, all suffer the consequence of Adam, and all die because we all sin.

Adams sin was one of willful disobedience, unlike Eve who bought into a lie. And all suffer the consequence of Adams sin, yet non of us inherited Adams sin for we all are guilty of our own willful disobedience.

John makes it clear that we all sin. So what's our advantage? Do you find yourself in willful disobedience? Or are all of your sins like Eve, where you bought into a lie?

Many people buy into a lie. Saul persecuted Christians because he thought he was doing Gods will. That's not willful disobedience.... and we know willful disobedience is handledcdifferently than sin through ignorance.

Paul writes that sin is allowed so that Gods grace may be. Shown, but to the one who willfully sins so grace may abound, his condemnation is deserved.

So we have two scenereos. For the one who does not know Jesus, yet keeps the law of Christ, and happens to practice another faith based on their culture, how will God judge them?

Interesting. I do not recall thinking, or stating, that anyone can live the way they want. I think the exact opposite is true. I think people will live the way they want, or they will live the way God wants, one way is right, the other wrong.

I see what your insinuating. But willful disobedience is when you reject the truth, whether or not you want to believe its the truth or not. The very nature of God, of what He wants, is written into creation. So the ones who have died, never hearing of Christ, or the Gospel, will be judged according to what they did know - what God had manifested to them in creation.

However, if those same people, had a believer come to them and proclaim the truth, and then they chose to live according to what they believe - then they will be judged by the Gospel. Its not "ok" to practice any faith - there is only one way of salvation. Either Jesus was the way, or He was not. He cannot be 'a' way.

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry I misunderstood you.. earlier you said,
"
God sacrificed His only Son. His only perfect Son. He did not do it so that mankind could do what they want - and end up with eternal life in the end. I "

I took that as doing whatever they wanted. Thanks for clearing that up.

Let me follow up with something you said. You said that those who never hear of Jesus would be judged on what they did know.

Now, to those who did not know the law, fulfilled the law, then it goes to show that the law was written on their hearts. Correct?

The new covenant says that the law would be written on their heart, and they wouldn't need anyone to teach them (jer 31:31), if this is the case, then aren't they living in accordance with the way?

Do a study on "the way" in the Old Testament, and it might just bring some depth to the words of Jesus when he says, I am the way..."

Let me know what you find, and please take some time. Sorry for not supplying more reference material for you, but this phone is awkward if you know what I mean.

 

[Corn Pop]

The main thing with Jesus was to love one another, and believe his words, if you believe his words you believe in the one who sent him.

He took away the sin. Its not about sin.His words are to love one another.

People keep looking at the law and its always sin, sin, sin. Can people just forget sin and just love one another.

 

[Nathan]

Sorry I misunderstood you.. earlier you said,
"
God sacrificed His only Son. His only perfect Son. He did not do it so that mankind could do what they want - and end up with eternal life in the end. I "

I took that as doing whatever they wanted. Thanks for clearing that up.

Let me follow up with something you said. You said that those who never hear of Jesus would be judged on what they did know.

Now, to those who did not know the law, fulfilled the law, then it goes to show that the law was written on their hearts. Correct?

The new covenant says that the law would be written on their heart, and they wouldn't need anyone to teach them (jer 31:31), if this is the case, then aren't they living in accordance with the way?

Do a study on "the way" in the Old Testament, and it might just bring some depth to the words of Jesus when he says, I am the way..."

Let me know what you find, and please take some time. Sorry for not supplying more reference material for you, but this phone is awkward if you know what I mean.

For clarification, are you speaking of ones who do not know the law, but know of Jesus?

The way I read it, there is the law of God in nature. It's not so much "thou shalt not do this or that", but that there is a God, and that mankind falls short of His perfection.

That, in and of itself, brings those who never heard of Christ or Gods commandments, to a place where they realize Gods goodness and their inadequacy. It's hard to know exactly what they think, but Paul tells us they "know" and live according to this knowledge.

It's never been meant for mankind to attain Gods pleasure by works of the law - whether it be natural or written. It's always been Gods desire that man live by faith. And that faith shows itself in the people without the law in the way they live to the creator, and to those around them. I believe their faith that their inadequacy, coupled with an all powerful Creator(creation requires a creator), is what brings them to the understanding that they need 'salvation' - however that looks to them.

Salvation requires a savior. So nature, Gods creation, drives them to faith in this savior. Mankind is full of these examples through the ages. We know who that savior is, while they do not - but understand He is real. I think it would be human common sense for them to believe that the savior would have to come from the creator.

I think the writing of the law on mans heart is in regards to those who know who God is, and His Son Jesus. Not a person who has never heard of them having Gods law on their heart. If that all makes sense. As you know, yes, it is difficult to expound on a phone.

 

[eddif]

I thought tough love was love too.

The rod and staff are two ways to give us direction. Draw near or swat.

The 400 years between covenants was a part of love. The death of Jesus on the cross was sure love.

To make love only sweet is to judge God.

Somehow the definitions / understanding of the different forms of love have become twisted. Chastens whom he loves seems to have evaporated.

eddif

 

[stovebolts]

I thought tough love was love too.

The rod and staff are two ways to give us direction. Draw near or swat.

The 400 years between covenants was a part of love. The death of Jesus on the cross was sure love.

To make love only sweet is to judge God.

Somehow the definitions / understanding of the different forms of love have become twisted. Chastens whom he loves seems to have evaporated.

eddif

Not sure what has given you that idea. I certainly hope I didn't give you that idea.

 

[stovebolts]

For clarification, are you speaking of ones who do not know the law, but know of Jesus?

The way I read it, there is the law of God in nature. It's not so much "thou shalt not do this or that", but that there is a God, and that mankind falls short of His perfection..

Hi Nathan.
I was thinking Romans 2:14 - 15. I don't think Paul makes a distinction between those who heard of Jesus and those who dont. Within the context, he is using a broad stroke of the brush, so I have to go with all of the above.

I'll write more later to answer the rest of your reply, but I did catch the idea that you've been taught the doctrine of depravity.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan.
I was thinking Romans 2:14 - 15. I don't think Paul makes a distinction between those who heard of Jesus and those who dont. Within the context, he is using a broad stroke of the brush, so I have to go with all of the above.

I'll write more later to answer the rest of your reply, but I did catch the idea that you've been taught the doctrine of depravity.

Looking forward to hearing it.

I'll have to look that doctrine up. To be completely honest, I've been taught a lot of things.

I tried for years to sit under someone's teaching, but each time I did it never failed that something they taught didn't sit well. So then I turned to reading books upon books. Commentaries after commentaries. Same thing. Lots of information had bits of truth, but I never felt like I could fully agree.

So I turned to just studying the Bible. I still attend a fellowship, I still listen to sermons and teachings, and I on occasion read others thoughts. But I hold every bit of it up to what the Bible says to see what is true and false.

People still want to put me into a box most of the time, but I've never even been able to put myself into a box of doctrine because I always find something in there that I don't agree with.

I learned to be ok with it.

 

[eddif]

Romans 1:18 KJV
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I have a developing thought on nature.
What can complicate it Is in job, but that is resolving over time.

Nathan you can comment.

Nature against sin:
Fire and brimstone against sins in Sodom.

Earth opened up and swallowed
Numbers 16:32 KJV
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

Egypt suffered plagues

Etc.
...........

Nature was created good, but can be used to punish or test. The without excuse IMHO
can send folks to hell if they do not cry out for knowledge of what is going on.
The good: why does nature work so well
The bad: why is this happening (Jonah)

If any man lacks wisdom let him ask God (from memory). If any man asks he will have an opportunity to learn of God.

God judges and reveals his wrath. Man judges and ignores God. We should not judge against God, we should pass on the judgement of God (of course John the Baptist lost his head and Jesus was crucified.

This all relates to the OP in that some thing needs to save folks from hell. Repentance, Jesus, Holy Spirit. On a symbolic level: communion, baptism, etc.

I wonder if anything made sense.
eddif

 

[stovebolts]

Looking forward to hearing it.

I'll have to look that doctrine up. To be completely honest, I've been taught a lot of things.

I tried for years to sit under someone's teaching, but each time I did it never failed that something they taught didn't sit well. So then I turned to reading books upon books. Commentaries after commentaries. Same thing. Lots of information had bits of truth, but I never felt like I could fully agree.

So I turned to just studying the Bible. I still attend a fellowship, I still listen to sermons and teachings, and I on occasion read others thoughts. But I hold every bit of it up to what the Bible says to see what is true and false.

People still want to put me into a box most of the time, but I've never even been able to put myself into a box of doctrine because I always find something in there that I don't agree with.

I learned to be ok with it.

Your in good company then lol. For myself, I've studied under many teachers, but lately I've found it simply wonderful to not study, and just read the bible for the story it is. Sometimes we can miss the forest in the trees... and too much study can cause this imho. Anyway, I'll try and touch on the rest of your prior post. I ended up doing a thermostat in my wife's trailblazer last night... not fun...

 

[GodsGrace]

The main thing with Jesus was to love one another, and believe his words, if you believe his words you believe in the one who sent him.

He took away the sin. Its not about sin.His words are to love one another.

People keep looking at the law and its always sin, sin, sin. Can people just forget sin and just love one another.

Hi Kiwidan,
This reminds me of the famous sentence.
"Can't we just get along".

You say it's not about sin.
But it is.

Then why did Jesus tell the adulterous woman:
Go, and SIN NO MORE.

I think I asked you this another time.
Do you have an answer?

The reason Jesus left us with the two Great Commandments is so that WE WOULD NOT SIN.
By following them, we follow all of them.

Not wanting to talk about sin, is like learning how to drive without wanting to learn what a red traffic light means.

 

[stovebolts]

The way I read it, there is the law of God in nature. It's not so much "thou shalt not do this or that", but that there is a God, and that mankind falls short of His perfection.

In part, I agree and I think Romans 1:17-20 touches upon this. I'm not so sure I'd add "falls short of His perfection", and that's in part what I meant about the doctrine of total depravity, which you hint at numerous times. What I see, is that God puts natural consequences in creation. Some other religions may call it Karma, or simply put, sometimes you reap what you sow... except the reality is there is no guarantee that the work of your hand will produce a crop, sometimes it's thorns... Gen 3:17-18.
That being said, "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God".... and we could speak paragraphs on this as to what it means to miss His glory.

That, in and of itself, brings those who never heard of Christ or Gods commandments, to a place where they realize Gods goodness and their inadequacy. It's hard to know exactly what they think, but Paul tells us they "know" and live according to this knowledge..

I agree. Perhaps it's that God created us with His spirit infused in ours. We each hold that diving spark. Genesis 2:7, Ecc 3:11. If we did not have good in us, how would our conscience become seared by doing wrong? 1 Tim 4:2

It's never been meant for mankind to attain Gods pleasure by works of the law - whether it be natural or written. It's always been Gods desire that man live by faith. And that faith shows itself in the people without the law in the way they live to the creator, and to those around them. I believe their faith that their inadequacy, coupled with an all powerful Creator(creation requires a creator), is what brings them to the understanding that they need 'salvation' - however that looks to them.

While I wouldn't disagree with this, I would say that that God desires a relationship with all of his creation. 1 Timothy 2:3-4. We were created for good works, (Eph 2:10) , and when we are doing good works, we are a light to the world that should not be put under a bowl, but rather, it is put on a mountain top so that God's glory would be known.

I come from the school of thought that we are saved, we are being saved, and I will be saved. David writes in the Psalms in many places where he needs God to save him... at that moment. This I believe is part of that "Natural Law" we were talking about. But it also segway's directly into something I hinted at earlier regarding "The way". Yes, there is a way that seems right to a man, but God's way brings about not only an eternal salvation, but it saves us now from the sin of this world... think about it for a moment. In it's simplest terms, when we can forgive another, it sets us free. We don't have to pack that misery in our lives. God teaches us this in his word, and it is affirmed that it is a better "way" to live. Much of the Law is God teaching a certain people of a 'way' to live in accordance with the way that God created us to live.

I know you've written more, and I'm sorry, I ran out of time. I hope this gives you a since of my direction, and if you could, I would really appreciate it if you could do some light study on "The Way" in the OT. You can start with a simple work search. Deut 8:2 is a good start with a nice contrast with 9:16. Isaiah has much to say about this as well.

Take care, and have a great day.

 

[GodsGrace]

hi

the born again experience is for the inside of the body repentance forgiveness to regenerate the spirit to save man and reconcile man back to God

water baptism is for the outside of the body an outward sign of repentance and symbolic of burying our old lives and habits leaving it buried and arising a new creature or creation in Christ Jesus.

baptism of the Holy Spirit is to equip us for ministry and to help us live a victorious life.

born again means born from above

Jesus was born from above in heaven and was placed in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit

so he didn't inherit Adams sinful nature which is passed on from parent to child through our genes through procreation.(others may have a completely different view or perspective and that's fine)

Thats why we all have to be born again or reborn from above

So Jesus was born from above

then he got water baptized for an outward sign of repentance

then he was baptized in the Spirit for ministry

then he was tempted by the god of this world and over came him

then he began his ministry and said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

then he preached taught and healed people

that's the order and example that Jesus provided

what ever you believe or what ever your denomination believes or practices is your business

just food for thought

Peace

Great post.

I'd like to add one thought.
Jesus told John that He should be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.
Mathew 3:15

We cannot be righteous of ourselves, but only through Jesus. His righteousness is imparted to us so we are righteous through Him. All righteousness also means doing everything right as to God. So since, we are to die to ourselves and come up out of the water as born again in Christ, so He had to show us as an example that we are to die and be born again in spirit.

Also, John was from the priestly family of Aaron. They offered sacrifices to God. John offered Jesus as a sacrifice to God. In John 1:29, John says: Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

Last comment: The only time in the N.T. that the Holy Trinity is seen at one time is at the baptism of Jesus:
Jesus, the second person of the Trinity is present.
Father is present when speaking the words, "Behold my only begotten Son, in Whom I am well pleased".
Holy Spirit is present in the form of a dove.

 

[GodsGrace]

In part, I agree and I think Romans 1:17-20 touches upon this. I'm not so sure I'd add "falls short of His perfection", and that's in part what I meant about the doctrine of total depravity, which you hint at numerous times. What I see, is that God puts natural consequences in creation. Some other religions may call it Karma, or simply put, sometimes you reap what you sow... except the reality is there is no guarantee that the work of your hand will produce a crop, sometimes it's thorns... Gen 3:17-18.
That being said, "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God".... and we could speak paragraphs on this as to what it means to miss His glory.


I agree. Perhaps it's that God created us with His spirit infused in ours. We each hold that diving spark. Genesis 2:7, Ecc 3:11. If we did not have good in us, how would our conscience become seared by doing wrong? 1 Tim 4:2


While I wouldn't disagree with this, I would say that that God desires a relationship with all of his creation. 1 Timothy 2:3-4. We were created for good works, (Eph 2:10) , and when we are doing good works, we are a light to the world that should not be put under a bowl, but rather, it is put on a mountain top so that God's glory would be known.

I come from the school of thought that we are saved, we are being saved, and I will be saved. David writes in the Psalms in many places where he needs God to save him... at that moment. This I believe is part of that "Natural Law" we were talking about. But it also segway's directly into something I hinted at earlier regarding "The way". Yes, there is a way that seems right to a man, but God's way brings about not only an eternal salvation, but it saves us now from the sin of this world... think about it for a moment. In it's simplest terms, when we can forgive another, it sets us free. We don't have to pack that misery in our lives. God teaches us this in his word, and it is affirmed that it is a better "way" to live. Much of the Law is God teaching a certain people of a 'way' to live in accordance with the way that God created us to live.

I know you've written more, and I'm sorry, I ran out of time. I hope this gives you a since of my direction, and if you could, I would really appreciate it if you could do some light study on "The Way" in the OT. You can start with a simple work search. Deut 8:2 is a good start with a nice contrast with 9:16. Isaiah has much to say about this as well.

Take care, and have a great day.

I'd add to this that the Kingdom of God starts here if we follow Jesus as THE WAY.

He told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. He would not have said this unless the Kingdom of God starts right here. Some do not believe this.

Mathew 5:3-10, the Beatitudes, shows us the attitude we are to have if we're to be members of the Kingdom.

Members of the Kingdom promote the ways of God and attempt to live by those ways as much as possible.
It's what being holy is all about. Being set apart for work unto God. Simply meaning that anything we do, we do for God, and that's what gives us the strength to do it.

I have difficulty understanding those that do not like the word or concept of works when that is all Jesus told us to do...

 

[stovebolts]

I'd add to this that the Kingdom of God starts here if we follow Jesus as THE WAY.

He told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. He would not have said this unless the Kingdom of God starts right here. Some do not believe this.

Mathew 5:3-10, the Beatitudes, shows us the attitude we are to have if we're to be members of the Kingdom.

Members of the Kingdom promote the ways of God and attempt to live by those ways as much as possible.
It's what being holy is all about. Being set apart for work unto God. Simply meaning that anything we do, we do for God, and that's what gives us the strength to do it.

I have difficulty understanding those that do not like the word or concept of works when that is all Jesus told us to do...

Thank you, and it's refreshing to know you are tracking.

This brings about the idea Nathan touched on. Most of us are seeking a better way, and then we find the teachings of Jesus... and then we realize how much we need him in our daily lives.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you, and it's refreshing to know you are tracking.

This brings about the idea Nathan touched on. Most of us are seeking a better way, and then we find the teachings of Jesus... and then we realize how much we need him in our daily lives.

I like to think of it like this:

Jesus is:

The Way: He is the way, the road we are to follow if we're to become members of the Kingdom. Members of the Kingdom detach themselves emotionally from the world and wish to follow the divine in them.

The Truth: You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. What is the truth? Satan wishes to gain control of our soul. If we know this, we can be careful to keep away from satan and serve God instead. Only then are we truly free.

The Life: Jesus is the spark of that divine life that is in us. He gives us "eternal life". The divine that we follow is given to us by Jesus, He is that divine life that comes alive through Him. Zeos life. We die to death and come alive to life.

 

[Corn Pop]

Hi Kiwidan,
This reminds me of the famous sentence.
"Can't we just get along".

You say it's not about sin.
But it is.

Then why did Jesus tell the adulterous woman:
Go, and SIN NO MORE.

I think I asked you this another time.
Do you have an answer?

The reason Jesus left us with the two Great Commandments is so that WE WOULD NOT SIN.
By following them, we follow all of them.

Not wanting to talk about sin, is like learning how to drive without wanting to learn what a red traffic light means.

Jesus free the adulterous women then said sin no more.

Jesus heal the blind man then say the blind has no sin held against them.

Look at all his teachings everything Jesus did was to show an example and is a message. The sin of the world is adultery against God, thats why he free her and then say sin no more, as in, turn back to God, it wasn't about what she did. If it was, Jesus would have been stoning her to death for adultery.

Love God and Love one another. Thats it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus free the adulterous women then said sin no more.

Jesus heal the blind man then say the blind has no sin held against them.

Look at all his teachings everything Jesus did was to show an example and is a message. The sin of the world is adultery against God, thats why he free her and then say sin no more, as in, turn back to God, it wasn't about what she did. If it was, Jesus would have been stoning her to death for adultery.

Love God and Love one another. Thats it.

See Mathew 9:2-7

A paralyzed man was brought to Jesus and He forgave the man's sins. Some scribes that were present said to themselves that this was blasphemy since only God could forgive sin. So Jesus healed the paralyzed man to show that He was God. He could both forgive sin and heal.

So the sample you speak of was to show that He was given all authority to both heal and forgive sin.
If sin needs to be forgiven, it means that God does not like us to sin.

You say that sin is adultery toward God. Please explain this as I've never heard it.
Is sin not displeasing God? Breaking a commandment? Having a bad heart? Missing the mark He has set for us?

Jesus would not have stoned the adulteress woman to death because He Himself said He came to heal the sick. It's the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy. Mathew 9:12-13

In Mathew 9:14-17 Jesus is explaining to John's followers why He and the Apostles, and His followers, don't discipline body and spirit like the Pharisees do. Jesus said that one does not throw water on a fire, or put a fine cloth on an old garment. All things were new. We were to follow God in a new way, with the heart and not with Law as slaves would do, but as friends.

Does this mean to you that the Law is no longer to be followed?? Or is it to be followed in a different way?
And what do you mean that sin is adultery toward God?

Thanks Kiwidan.

 

[WIP]

See Mathew 9:2-7

A paralyzed man was brought to Jesus and He forgave the man's sins. Some scribes that were present said to themselves that this was blasphemy since only God could forgive sin. So Jesus healed the paralyzed man to show that He was God. He could both forgive sin and heal.

So the sample you speak of was to show that He was given all authority to both heal and forgive sin.
If sin needs to be forgiven, it means that God does not like us to sin.

You say that sin is adultery toward God. Please explain this as I've never heard it.
Is sin not displeasing God? Breaking a commandment? Having a bad heart? Missing the mark He has set for us?

Jesus would not have stoned the adulteress woman to death because He Himself said He came to heal the sick. It's the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy. Mathew 9:12-13

In Mathew 9:14-17 Jesus is explaining to John's followers why He and the Apostles, and His followers, don't discipline body and spirit like the Pharisees do. Jesus said that one does not throw water on a fire, or put a fine cloth on an old garment. All things were new. We were to follow God in a new way, with the heart and not with Law as slaves would do, but as friends.

Does this mean to you that the Law is no longer to be followed?? Or is it to be followed in a different way?
And what do you mean that sin is adultery toward God?

Thanks Kiwidan.

A thought occurred to me. If we truly love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength how can we possibly sin? I think the fact is that we do not truly love God with every part of our being. Some part of us, no matter how hard we try, some part of us holds back from loving God the way He intends and this is when I look to my Savior, the Christ Jesus. Without a doubt we need a savior. Thank God for Jesus!

 

[GodsGrace]

A thought occurred to me. If we truly love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength how can we possibly sin? I think the fact is that we do not truly love God with every part of our being. Some part of us, no matter how hard we try, some part of us holds back from loving God the way He intends and this is when I look to my Savior, the Christ Jesus. Without a doubt we need a savior. Thank God for Jesus!

Amen.

However, I must say that due to our nature, it's impossible not to sin - ever.
I think of my relationship with my husband.
Does he doubt my love for him? No.
Do I get him upset every now and then? Yes.
It can't be helped.
I think it's the same with God.
I know what you mean, that if we truly loved Him, we'd never sin.
You bring up an interesting question: Is it impossible to love someone 100%? (including God)

I do believe that our sin nature keeps us from being able to love someone 100%. We will always be a little egotistical. A little prideful. Are these not the major causes of sin?

Thanks for making me think of something new WIP!
If you have any further comments, please post.

P.S.
Only God is good.
Only God can love unconditionally.
GOD IS LOVE.
We are not fully Love.