Is belief "works"?

[Jethro Bodine]

Regardless, Scripture does indeed say they were justified, or they would not be in heaven.

He's grasping for a defense.

 

[dadof10]

Paul plainly contrasts works of the law with faith in the blood of Christ, not the non-law work you claim justifies a person.

I asked you to show me where the Bible says we are made righteous before God (justified) by this work outside of the law. I especially want to know where Paul said it so there can be no doubt that he just wasn't including other work for some reason along with the forgiveness of sins to be justified. Just show us where it says what work has the power to make us righteous before God. Paul says only the forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus' blood can do that.

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. (Rom. 2)

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. (1Tim. 2)

James says we are justified by our deeds, Peter says baptism saves. I posted a list of verses that say OBEDIENCE TO GOD (or lack thereof) effects salvation. You just won't accept them.

OK, your turn. Where does Scripture teach that the "works" Paul talks about mean "all deeds"? Where is "works" or "deeds...done in righteousness" compared to "all righteous works"? Still waiting...

 

[dadof10]

He's grasping for a defense.

 

[dadof10]

Regardless, Scripture does indeed say they were justified, or they would not be in heaven.

Yes. They are justified, even though Scripture doesn't say they were "declared righteous". We can infer they were justified by other words. This is my point. I was responding to Jethro. Did you read the post above?

 

[WIP]

Let's tread carefully here. Are we here to make points and win arguments or are we here to gain understanding of the truth?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. (Rom. 2)

How does this mean that the right things we do are what actually MAKE us righteous (justified) before God?

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. (1Tim. 2)

So, women are MADE righteous before God (justified) by having a child, therefore, women who don't have children are not justified before God?

James says we are justified by our deeds

And if you believe that James is using the word 'justified' in the exact same definition as Paul does in Romans (for there is more than one definition for the word) then you believe they are exactly in opposition to each other, Paul saying faith is what MAKES a person righteous before God, and not qualifying it in any way as meaning 'faith in God's forgiveness + what you do', while (you believe) James says faith and works is what MAKES a person righteous before God.

It's impossible for an honest, reasonable person to believe that James means that. Impossible. The key being to humbly and honestly acknowledge that 'justified' means, both, to be MADE righteous, and to be SHOWN to be righteous, and that the context of their letters supports the definition they are defending...particularly James'.

...Peter says baptism saves.

But where does it say the actual baptism itself is what MAKES me righteous before God and not the faith, all by itself, that prompted it? That's what you need to show us.

I posted a list of verses that say OBEDIENCE TO GOD (or lack thereof) effects salvation. You just won't accept them.

We all know obedience has much to do with salvation. What you can't show us is that obedience is what MAKES us righteous (justified) before God.

OK, your turn. Where does Scripture teach that the "works" Paul talks about mean "all deeds"? Where is "works" or "deeds...done in righteousness" compared to "all righteous works"? Still waiting...

What is it you do not understand about the difference between having your sins forgiven through faith and trust in Christ's blood, and doing something else to remove sin guilt?

Only the forgiveness of God can remove sin guilt. And the conduit of that forgiveness is the 'work' of believing in that offer of forgiveness. What is this work besides the work of believing that can remove sin guilt???? What work is there that can MAKE me righteous before God? Don't tell me what works accompany the faith that MAKES me perfect before God all by itself. Show me in the Bible these works that MAKE me perfect before God if I have faith in God. That's all you have to do and you've proven your case.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Great, then the words "were reckoned righteous" aren't NECESSARY to prove that a person was justified. We can INFER from other words (like "kingdom of Heaven" or "the Holy Spirit descended upon all who were present") that a person is justified, right? That was my point. We can infer from the words in Heb. 11 and Gen. 12 that Abraham was justified when he left Haran, which, BTW, was NOT by faith alone, even though he HAD faith. If he would have stayed, he wouldn't have been justified.

Stop spinning the argument.

We are discussing being able to tell WHEN a person has been justified.

You say you know when Abraham was justified...and it was before Genesis 15, though it doesn't say that. Then you 'grasp' for whether or not Issac and 'Jacob' were justified as some kind of defense for knowing when a person is justified?????

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You just can't bring yourself to say the word "obedience" in relation to justification, can you? I, nor the Catholic Church, has EVER said that justification is "secured by work completed". All I have EVER said is OBEDIENCE to God's commands is NECESSARY for a person to remain justified...

No, FAITH is what is required to remain justified (made perfect) by the one time, for all time, for all believers, sacrifice of Christ. Obedience is how we know if we are continuing in the faith that justifies all by itself apart from work. That is why the Bible exhorts us to work to 'make our calling and election sure'. Not to MAKE us righteous before God but to ensure we have the righteousness of God, because lack of work is how we know that we don't.

...because justification is a process.

But I showed you where the Bible PLAINLY says we are made perfect one time for all time, and that sanctification (holiness) is the ongoing process. It's not a process to make ourselves legally righteous before God (justified). That happened the moment I believed. And as long as I keep believing, I'll remain justified.

 

[Deborah13]

2 Peter 1:8-10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor (A)unfruitful in the true (B)knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is (C)blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his (D)purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His (E)calling and (F)choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never (G)stumble;

Peter tells them that if the qualities of the Spirit are theirs and increasing,... to the true knowledge of Jesus. If one is lacking they have forgotten they have been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Be stedfast in knowing that He has called and chose you. If you do this you will never stumble. Walk in the Spirit and you will not walk in the flesh.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

We can infer they were justified by other words.

Can you explain that, please? But other means? Or just that other verses in the Bible confirm they are justified by faith, as was their father, Abraham.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you are still purposely setting up straw men because you can't deal with solid, Biblical theology. The fact is, that Scripture teaches that OBEDIENCE is necessary for salvation.

Yes, obedience is necessary for salvation. But the only obedience that is necessary to be justified is trusting in the blood of Christ. The faith that justifies, alone, is the faith that won't be alone, but can then be seen in what it does (Galatians 5:6).

This in no way means that the works produced by the faith that justifies somehow do the justifying as in MAKING a person righteous. But they do justify a person in that they SHOW a person to be righteous by faith in Christ.

James and Paul are in complete agreement: We are justified (MADE righteous) by our faith in Christ. We are also justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what we do.

You can call that "works" if you want to, but it will still be a straw man, because you can't even come close to proving that by "works" Paul means "all deeds", which is the topic here. There is a HUGE difference between "works" and obedient faith, especially to Paul.

Until you can show anyone tying "deeds..." to ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE LAW, you haven't proved your contention.

I'm pretty sure I shared this passage before, but what 'work' is Paul speaking of here?

"9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV1984)


If you say 'work' in this passage is not tied to works of the law then I have provided the evidence that 'work' in the Bible is not always, categorically, a reference to works of the law. If you say the work in this passage is tied to works of the law then you have no choice but to concede that works of the law do indeed 'save' a person in complete contradiction to what you are sure Paul is talking about in Romans.

 

[dadof10]

How does this mean that the right things we do are what actually MAKE us righteous (justified) before God?

Isaac and Jacob were justified, correct? How do you know they were? Here is YOUR PROOF:

11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 8:11 NIV1984)

So, people who are in the Heaven are justified, correct?

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"

Unless you are going to attempt to say that "eternal life" means something other than Heaven, you must admit Paul is saying that "works" and "well-doing" effect justification. I notice there is no exegesis here. Typical.

So, women are MADE righteous before God (justified) by having a child, therefore, women who don't have children are not justified before God?

Yes, that's what I believe.....That's what the Catholic Church teaches, that ALL VIRGINS WILL BURN IN ETERNAL HELLFIRE...MMUUUAAAHAHAH...

Don't be ridiculous. Paul's obvious point is that sacrifice, like the pain of childbirth, has an effect on salvation, IF they continue in faith, love etc. Notice the assumption of ongoing justification. Again, no exegesis. What do you think he means here?

And if you believe that James is using the word 'justified' in the exact same definition as Paul does in Romans (for there is more than one definition for the word) then you believe they are exactly in opposition to each other, Paul saying faith is what MAKES a person righteous before God, and not qualifying it in any way as meaning 'faith in God's forgiveness + what you do', while (you believe) James says faith and works is what MAKES a person righteous before God.

Not if Paul means "works of the law" instead of "all actions". Isn't this what we've been discussing for over a year now? Are you going to go back to begging the question again? Paul means "works of the law" when he contrasts "works" and faith. He does NOT mean "all deeds". There is no "opposition" if it's looked upon logically.

It's impossible for an honest, reasonable person to believe that James means that. Impossible. The key being to humbly and honestly acknowledge that 'justified' means, both, to be MADE righteous, and to be SHOWN to be righteous, and that the context of their letters supports the definition they are defending...particularly James'.

No, it doesn't. Just because the word "show" is in a sentence, doesn't mean the word "justify" is changed. Where does James say "shown to be righteous"?

But where does it say the actual baptism itself is what MAKES me righteous before God and not the faith, all by itself, that prompted it? That's what you need to show us.

Who is "us", Precious?

"eight persons, were saved through water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,"

Those are the plain words of Scripture. Here comes the spin...

 

[dadof10]

Stop spinning the argument.

We are discussing being able to tell WHEN a person has been justified.

You say you know when Abraham was justified...and it was before Genesis 15, though it doesn't say that. Then you 'grasp' for whether or not Issac and 'Jacob' were justified as some kind of defense for knowing when a person is justified?????

You have said repeatedly that Abraham was JUSTIFIED when he had faith in the "Seed", which is Christ. Abraham had faith in the "Seed" in Gen. 12. Here is the verse again:

"When they had come to the land of Canaan, 6 Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants [seed, just like in Gen. 15] I will give this land." So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him"

All your criteria for Abraham's justification is satisfied in Gen. 12 and Gen 15. This is a fact. How will you respond?

 

[dadof10]

No, FAITH is what is required to remain justified (made perfect) by the one time, for all time, for all believers, sacrifice of Christ. Obedience is how we know if we are continuing in the faith that justifies all by itself apart from work.

Scripture, please.

That is why the Bible exhorts us to work to 'make our calling and election sure'. Not to MAKE us righteous before God but to ensure we have the righteousness of God, because lack of work is how we know that we don't.

But I showed you where the Bible PLAINLY says we are made perfect one time for all time, and that sanctification (holiness) is the ongoing process. It's not a process to make ourselves legally righteous before God (justified). That happened the moment I believed. And as long as I keep believing, I'll remain justified.

I'll ask again, then you can lose your salvation through unbelief? Right now, you believe (have "saving faith") and consider yourself justified "forever". How do you know you will always remain in this "saving faith"? If you answer "I don't", then justification is NOT "forever", you have no "assurance of salvation", and justification is a PROCESS, because, if you ever did lose your salvation, you could always repent and be justified again. This is what the lesson of Abraham teaches us. He was justified in Gen. 12, doubted God, and repented in Gen. 15.

 

[dadof10]

I'm pretty sure I shared this passage before, but what 'work' is Paul speaking of here?

"9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV1984)


If you say 'work' in this passage is not tied to works of the law then I have provided the evidence that 'work' in the Bible is not always, categorically, a reference to works of the law. If you say the work in this passage is tied to works of the law then you have no choice but to concede that works of the law do indeed 'save' a person in complete contradiction to what you are sure Paul is talking about in Romans.

Are you kidding me? After all this time I have to write "in the sections of his letters where Paul contrasts faith and works" to qualify what I mean by "works"? It isn't obvious by now? How many times have I actually written "in the faith vs. works sections of his letters", like 50??? Another straw-man...

OK. I'll create a macro so every time I write the word "works" it will automatically put in "in the sections of his letters where Paul contrasts faith and works", so you'll quit distracting with your silly "gotcha!!!" Please...

Just answer the questions, like how "deeds...done in righteousness" means "all righteous works", or how "perseverance" in Heb. 11 means to persevere in "non-saving faith", or why there is not ONE EXAMPLE IN THE ENTIRE NT, where faith is CONTRASTED WITH ANYTHING BUT WORKS OF THE LAW?

 

[dadof10]

Can you explain that, please? But other means? Or just that other verses in the Bible confirm they are justified by faith, as was their father, Abraham.

Jethro seemed to be saying that he didn't think Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 because it doesn't specifically SAY SO. This is what I'm responding to. We can infer by words other than "and he was justified" that a person was indeed justified, like "Isaac and Jacob are in Heaven" or "Cornelius received the Holy Spirit". All three of them are justified and that is inferred by the words of Scripture, just like it is in Heb. 11 and Gen. 12. That's all...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Jethro seemed to be saying that he didn't think Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 because it doesn't specifically SAY SO. This is what I'm responding to. We can infer by words other than "and he was justified" that a person was indeed justified, like "Isaac and Jacob are in Heaven" or "Cornelius received the Holy Spirit". All three of them are justified and that is inferred by the words of Scripture, just like it is in Heb. 11 and Gen. 12. That's all...

OK, thanks. That makes sense. It is what I thought you were saying, but I wasn't sure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK. Then in your mind, it's possible that justification is a process.

No.

Hebrews is clear that justification--being made legally perfect before God--is a one time event that does not need to be repeated over and over again. Jesus says the same thing:

10 Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean...” (John 13:10 NIV1984)

Whether or not Jesus is speaking figuratively or literally about the 'bath', Jesus is clear that it does NOT have to be repeated, but for your doctrine of 're-justification' to be true it would indeed be necessary to 'take another bath' (whether it's viewed literally, or figuratively, doesn't matter) any time a person's behavior did not correspond to one's claim of faith (since you say faith and works is how a person is justified, in the exact same way Paul means to be 'justified').

Abraham believes in something specific in the promises now revealed to him in Genesis 15. It is then, when he has faith in that specific promise, that God declares him righteous according to his faith:

2 But Abram said, “O Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir.”

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Genesis 15:2-4,6 NIV1984)

This is sad, again...What happened to verse 5? Why was it skipped? Because it proves my point?

Lol, no. Verses 2-4 make the point I was making. I edited the post moments later and added verse 6 so that everyone can see that Abraham's justification is directly connected to what he's being told in verses 2-4--something he did know before this. And now, this side of Christ, we can understand why his justification was based on belief in these details of the promises, even as veiled as they still are as to the specific identity of who the son is.

I honestly don't see how verse 5 proves anything to your argument that Abraham was justified by both his faith and what he did, insofar as to what you say that means.

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” (Genesis 15:5 NIV1984)

Now that we know, this side of the cross, what it means to have faith in Christ we can see why verses 2-4 are key to Abraham's justification and why God makes it a point of declaring him righteous at this point and not back in chapter 12.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you kidding me? After all this time I have to write "in the sections of his letters where Paul contrasts faith and works" to qualify what I mean by "works"? It isn't obvious by now? How many times have I actually written "in the faith vs. works sections of his letters", like 50??? Another straw-man...

OK. I'll create a macro so every time I write the word "works" it will automatically put in "in the sections of his letters where Paul contrasts faith and works", so you'll quit distracting with your silly "gotcha!!!" Please...

A silly gotcha? Please just pick one of the two, 'work of the law', or 'deed done in righteousness outside of the law', that 'work' means in Hebrews 6 passage I posted. Or are you going to ignore the question?

Just answer the questions, like how "deeds...done in righteousness" means "all righteous works", or how "perseverance" in Heb. 11 means to persevere in "non-saving faith", or why there is not ONE EXAMPLE IN THE ENTIRE NT, where faith is CONTRASTED WITH ANYTHING BUT WORKS OF THE LAW?

Based on what you're now saying, I can only assume that you think it's impossible that someone can, say, for example, get baptized (a supposed non-law 'deed of righteousness', not a 'work') but not really have faith in Christ and that not be the same 'work' as you say Paul is describing in Romans? Explain. Do you see the implications of my question?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Isaac and Jacob were justified, correct? How do you know they were? Here is YOUR PROOF:

11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 8:11 NIV1984)

So, people who are in the Heaven are justified, correct?

"For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"

The faith that justifies, all by itself--because it is faith in the forgiveness of God that makes a person clean before God--is the faith that has work attached. The work is what is used at the judgment as the evidence for the declaration of righteousness that produced it. That is how we are saved by what we do, but justified (MADE righteous and able to do righteous things) by what we believe.

Unless you are going to attempt to say that "eternal life" means something other than Heaven, you must admit Paul is saying that "works" and "well-doing" effect justification.

Works and well doing affect salvation, but justification is based solely on having been forgiven through the blood of Christ, by faith (for there is no 'work' outside of believing that can merit forgiveness).

No need to conveniently redefine, or broaden, or narrow the meaning of eternal life, like your doctrine has to do for words like 'work' and, 'justified', and 'grace' to defend itself.