Is belief "works"?

[Grappler]

Perhaps "us" and "we" refers to Grappler. Perhaps it doesn't. That's not exactly a certainty, is it...

We won't know until judgment day. But it is all conjecture to wedge yourself into Ephesian verses, considering it was written to Ephesus, not the Americas.

I plan on begging God for mercy rather than making such a presumption.

Regards

When you say 'we' i was wondering if you have a mouse in your pocket?lol I don't have to beg....i am a child of God adopted through the blood of Jesus...all your begging and groveling will not help you...try putting your faith and trust in Jesus and then you won't have to beg.

 

[Butch5]

What??lol Jews? i guess you mean Judeans because they did not refer to each other as 'Jews' in those days. Nice that you mentioned John 17 because if you read verses 20 and 21 you will see that Jesus not only spoke to his followers of his day but also those who will believe (you know like the future) that they may all be one. Jew or Gentile or whatever means nothing we are all one in Christ. I happen to be one of those who Jesus prayed for in verse 20.

Yes, notice what He said, those who would believe, not those who would be given to Him. When Jesus said, no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, His ministry was to the Jews. We have to understand these statements in context to get the history correct.

 

[Butch5]

Christians are not promised the land. That promise remains Israel's promise. The inheritance spoken of here is our salvation.

Christians are promised that Land. Paul said in Hebrews it was their anchor of the Soul. He told the Galatians,


5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Gal 3:1 KJV)

The "blessing of Abraham" only appears twice in Scripture here and in Genesis 28:4 Where it specifically refers to the land as the inheritance


KJV Genesis 28:4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

Paul said it's through Christ that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles.

 

[Grappler]

Yes, notice what He said, those who would believe, not those who would be given to Him. When Jesus said, no one can come to me unless the Father draws him, His ministry was to the Jews. We have to understand these statements in context to get the history correct.

What are you talking about? Have you not read the writings of Paul? Butch there is no longer Jew or Gentile...do you not understand that Jesus came so that whosoever believes on him will be saved. I don't know why you are showing bias towards the Jew..are you a Jew? Let me explain a little church history very briefly for you. Jesus came to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Now..the first Christians were Jews and as they spread the gospel Gentiles became Christians as well. Jesus in John 17 simply said that those who will believe he didn't say anything about Jew or Gentile. Please stop being biased....God is not a respecter of persons..He doesn't care anything about Jew or Gentile. Why do you?

 

[Butch5]

Not sure? But it plainly says salvation is inherited:


"...who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 NIV)


An eternal dwelling place is certainly part of the promise of salvation. But we inherit all the benefits of salvation in steps. For now we have the "grapes of Eschol", the Holy Spirit, while we are in these unglorified bodies.
One day we will have glorified bodies, the fullness of the Spirit, and an eternal dwelling where we will be with God forever. If you continue in your faith
to the end you will continue in the salvation that has already begun for those who believe, but which we take possession of in stages.

Yes, as I said, it's not what most Christians claim as Salvation. It is the Land promise. In order to have an eternal land inheritance one must live eternally.

Of course we know the passage I quoted in Hebrews isn't saying we are made perfect in behavior when we first believe. We all know that. So it's apparent that the author is making reference to our legal standing before God. That is what is perfected when we believe. That is what it means to be 'justified'. It happened when we believed. And you continue in that declaration of righteousness as long as you continue to believe.

But he also records Jesus' words here to help us understand the difference between the cleansing of when we first believe and the cleansing when we sin after being saved:

"Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." (John 13:10 NIV)

I don't see anything in Scripture that speaks of a "legal" standing before God. I believe that is just a man's doctrine. However, the point is that not all sins are forgiven a baptism. If all sins were forgiven at baptism there would be no need for further cleansing.

 

[Grappler]

Christians are not promised the land. That promise remains Israel's promise. The inheritance spoken of here is our salvation.

Sorry but i can't let such a false statement go unanswered. You either have never read Galatians 3:29 or you don't comprehend it.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. Now Paul says all in Christ inherit the promises of Abraham..not only that we become part of Abraham's family such as Israel was. You say the opposite. I think i will go with Paul on this one and i am looking forward to partaking in the promises made to Abraham.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Christians are promised that Land. Paul said in Hebrews it was their anchor of the Soul. He told the Galatians ... (etc.)

You've got it wrong. The promise the Christian inherits is the Seed, who is Christ. The land is promised separately, is never passed to the church -- you won't be able to find a single verse anywhere that says otherwise -- and Paul also states unequivocally that God will deliver Israel and keep His promises to her.

Romans 11 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Emphasis added]
​

It is apparent from the above Scripture that God is not finished with Israel. Paul tells us that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. This is so the Gentiles can be included in the covenantal faithfulness of God in his redemptive work. This was prophesied in Genesis 12:3 and reiterated in Galatians 3:8. In those two verses, God says that in Abraham all the nations will be blessed. Paul quotes Gen. 12:3 in Galatians and calls it the gospel.

Obviously, God in his great and sovereign plan has worked all things after the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11) so that the Gentiles would be saved. When the time of the Gentiles is over, God will move upon Israel. They will accept Jesus as the Messiah, and they will become a great and powerful nation used by God. This will come after the Tribulation. Israel will be the spiritual center of the Earth, with Jesus Christ sitting upon His throne in the Temple, and all may approach without fear, without a "veil" or any other divider between God and man. You have an erroneous view of what the Bible says about Israel, and you must deal with this fact:

Ezekiel 47
13 Thus says the Lord GOD, "This shall be the boundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions. 14 "You shall divide it for an inheritance, each one equally with the other; for I swore to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall fall to you as an inheritance.
​

Ezekiel was then given detailed instructions as to the boundaries of Israel north, south, east and west. Israel has never occupied the lands therein described. Ezekiel was a prophet at the end of Israel's initial time as a sovereign nation, some 2300 years before the UN reestablished physical Israel as a precursor to the restoration by God of spiritual Israel. Therefore, this promise of God has never been fulfilled in all of history. If this promise is not fulfilled, then God is a liar. He most assuredly is not. You have no leg to stand on. Your contention is false.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see anything in Scripture that speaks of a "legal" standing before God.

Then how is it that the Bible speaks of a person being perfect and yet still be in the process of being made perfect?

If all sins were forgiven at baptism there would be no need for further cleansing.

The outer man is in the process of cleansing. The inner man was made clean once and for all at conversion. That is the difference between 'justification', and 'sanctification'. Justification establishes your right relationship with God. Sanctification is the process of transformation of the body to what it already is legally before God--perfect and without blame.

 

[Grappler]

You've got it wrong. The promise the Christian inherits is the Seed, who is Christ. The land is promised separately, is never passed to the church -- you won't be able to find a single verse anywhere that says otherwise -- and Paul also states unequivocally that God will deliver Israel and keep His promises to her.

Romans 11 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Emphasis added]
​

It is apparent from the above Scripture that God is not finished with Israel. Paul tells us that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. This is so the Gentiles can be included in the covenantal faithfulness of God in his redemptive work. This was prophesied in Genesis 12:3 and reiterated in Galatians 3:8. In those two verses, God says that in Abraham all the nations will be blessed. Paul quotes Gen. 12:3 in Galatians and calls it the gospel.

Obviously, God in his great and sovereign plan has worked all things after the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11) so that the Gentiles would be saved. When the time of the Gentiles is over, God will move upon Israel. They will accept Jesus as the Messiah, and they will become a great and powerful nation used by God. This will come after the Tribulation. Israel will be the spiritual center of the Earth, with Jesus Christ sitting upon His throne in the Temple, and all may approach without fear, without a "veil" or any other divider between God and man. You have an erroneous view of what the Bible says about Israel, and you must deal with this fact:

Ezekiel 47
13 Thus says the Lord GOD, "This shall be the boundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions. 14 "You shall divide it for an inheritance, each one equally with the other; for I swore to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall fall to you as an inheritance.
​

Ezekiel was then given detailed instructions as to the boundaries of Israel north, south, east and west. Israel has never occupied the lands therein described. Ezekiel was a prophet at the end of Israel's initial time as a sovereign nation, some 2300 years before the UN reestablished physical Israel as a precursor to the restoration by God of spiritual Israel. Therefore, this promise of God has never been fulfilled in all of history. If this promise is not fulfilled, then God is a liar. He most assuredly is not. You have no leg to stand on. Your contention is false.

So when you say he got it wrong i suppose you mean the Apostle Paul?? I don't know if you just like to ignore certain scripture or what but if you would take the time to read Galatians 3:29 you might be enlightened to the truth. Paul does NOT seperate the promises made to Abraham. Paul says that ALL in Christ inherit those promises. No seperating or categorizing there. Oh and if you think that the modern state of Israel is the true Israel then you are truly deceived.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So when you say he got it wrong i suppose you mean the Apostle Paul??

No, I mean Butch and anyone else, for that matter, who thinks Paul taught that Israel has been denied her promises. She has not, and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

I don't know if you just like to ignore certain scripture ...

No, I like to interpret it correctly. Rather like I said to francis the other day, I'm tired of seeing God's reputation impugned and His power denied, nor will I see it done in my sight any more. God's blessings to you, and may He grant you peace and reveal His truth to you.

 

[gr8grace]

No, I mean Butch and anyone else, for that matter, who thinks Paul taught that Israel has been denied her promises. She has not, and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

No, I like to interpret it correctly. Rather like I said to francis the other day, I'm tired of seeing God's reputation impugned and His power denied, nor will I see it done in my sight any more. God's blessings to you, and may He grant you peace and reveal His truth to you.

Your right on TND. all this garbage is a straight up attack on the integrity and the perfect character and nature of our God. You are a blessing here and God has gifted you with a discernment that is rare these days.

 

[Butch5]

What are you talking about? Have you not read the writings of Paul? Butch there is no longer Jew or Gentile...do you not understand that Jesus came so that whosoever believes on him will be saved. I don't know why you are showing bias towards the Jew..are you a Jew? Let me explain a little church history very briefly for you. Jesus came to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Now..the first Christians were Jews and as they spread the gospel Gentiles became Christians as well. Jesus in John 17 simply said that those who will believe he didn't say anything about Jew or Gentile. Please stop being biased....God is not a respecter of persons..He doesn't care anything about Jew or Gentile. Why do you?

There were Jews and Greeks when the Scriptures were written. There were also problems between them. Thus the apostle address each group in dealing with those problems. A look at church history will show these problems. Acts 15 is an example. Are you familiar with the Judaizers?

 

[Butch5]

You've got it wrong. The promise the Christian inherits is the Seed, who is Christ. The land is promised separately, is never passed to the church -- you won't be able to find a single verse anywhere that says otherwise -- and Paul also states unequivocally that God will deliver Israel and keep His promises to her.

Romans 11 NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Emphasis added]
​

It is apparent from the above Scripture that God is not finished with Israel. Paul tells us that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. This is so the Gentiles can be included in the covenantal faithfulness of God in his redemptive work. This was prophesied in Genesis 12:3 and reiterated in Galatians 3:8. In those two verses, God says that in Abraham all the nations will be blessed. Paul quotes Gen. 12:3 in Galatians and calls it the gospel.

Obviously, God in his great and sovereign plan has worked all things after the counsel of his will (Eph. 1:11) so that the Gentiles would be saved. When the time of the Gentiles is over, God will move upon Israel. They will accept Jesus as the Messiah, and they will become a great and powerful nation used by God. This will come after the Tribulation. Israel will be the spiritual center of the Earth, with Jesus Christ sitting upon His throne in the Temple, and all may approach without fear, without a "veil" or any other divider between God and man. You have an erroneous view of what the Bible says about Israel, and you must deal with this fact:

Ezekiel 47
13 Thus says the Lord GOD, "This shall be the boundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions. 14 "You shall divide it for an inheritance, each one equally with the other; for I swore to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall fall to you as an inheritance.
​

Ezekiel was then given detailed instructions as to the boundaries of Israel north, south, east and west. Israel has never occupied the lands therein described. Ezekiel was a prophet at the end of Israel's initial time as a sovereign nation, some 2300 years before the UN reestablished physical Israel as a precursor to the restoration by God of spiritual Israel. Therefore, this promise of God has never been fulfilled in all of history. If this promise is not fulfilled, then God is a liar. He most assuredly is not. You have no leg to stand on. Your contention is false.

No, I'm not wrong. I don't know why you think I said God would not fulfill His promises to Israel, I never said any such thing.

Now, regarding your statement about the Land, yes I can supply Scripture showing the Land is promised to the Gentile through faith in Christ. The land was promised to Abraham, personally, Isaac, and Jacob, however Stephen said the Abraham never received it.

Then said the high priest, Are these things so?

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (Act 7:1-5 KJV)

Paul says in Galatians,

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Gal 3:6-18 KJV)

The term "the blessing of Abraham" only appears twice in the Scriptures. Here where Paul quotes it and in Genesis where it was stated.

And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
(Gen 28:1-4 KJV)

This is the kingdom of God message. Christ will inherit the Land as His inheritance. We see this in Psalm 2

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:6-8 KJV)


Abraham was promised the promised land as an "everlasting" possession. The inheritance of the land is "the blessing of Abraham" and Paul said that "the blessing of Abraham" would come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. There is one kingdom and it is for both Jew and Gentile.

I go into this in greater depth in this article.

The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)

 

[Butch5]

Then how is it that the Bible speaks of a person being perfect and yet still be in the process of being made perfect?

Can you provide the specific passages so I can see the context?

The outer man is in the process of cleansing. The inner man was made clean once and for all at conversion. That is the difference between 'justification', and 'sanctification'. Justification establishes your right relationship with God. Sanctification is the process of transformation of the body to what it already is legally before God--perfect and without blame.

Outer man, inner man?

 

[Grappler]

No, I mean Butch and anyone else, for that matter, who thinks Paul taught that Israel has been denied her promises. She has not, and it is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

No, I like to interpret it correctly. Rather like I said to francis the other day, I'm tired of seeing God's reputation impugned and His power denied, nor will I see it done in my sight any more. God's blessings to you, and may He grant you peace and reveal His truth to you.

Who suggested Israel is denied his promises. I say HIS not HERS because Israel was a male.lol Anyways i never said Israel was denied any promises. What you fail to comprehend is that Christians become partakers in that promise...sounds like i have heard that somewhere before Ahhh! yes! Galatians 3:29 please read it now. Once again if you think that counterfiet Israel with its occultic flag is the true Israel...like the song says 'you got another thing comin'

 

[Grappler]

There were Jews and Greeks when the Scriptures were written. There were also problems between them. Thus the apostle address each group in dealing with those problems. A look at church history will show these problems. Acts 15 is an example. Are you familiar with the Judaizers?

...Once again dude there is no longer Jew or Greek. Do you not understand what Paul was talking about here? Ofcourse there were still Jews walking around and Greeks walking around on Earth in Pauls day!!! What Paul is talking about is in the sight of God there is no longer Jew or Greek, rich or poor, slave or free, male or female...Don't you understand symbolic spiritual language? Paul knew that there were physically Jews still on Earth so why did he say that they were no longer Jews? Because Paul being an apostle of God was talking in reference to God.:crazy

 

[CORE]

Outer man, inner man?

Flesh/Spirit?
Body/Soul?
Mind/heart?

Something like that, perhaps?