Is Christ divided?

[GodsGrace]

well said as usual. I do like to discuss ideas and theological concepts. But I've given up on the labels and trying to fit into the "right one." Still, there is a lot to be gained by listening to the thoughts and ideas of others. It keeps us sharp and thinking. But in the end, only love endures.

I'm probably going to go to a Reformed church. But not because I agree with the Reformed position on all thing, I have friends there and it's close. Now that I have moved I'm 25 miles from the church I attended for nearly 30 years. So I'm looking. There are some churches close by here but they lean liberal on too many issues and I'm to set in my ways for that. But who knows, maybe this old dog can learn a new trick or two? ;)

I also believe we have too many labels.
I don't think anyone fits clearly into one label...
maybe we belong to a little bit of a few.

I don't care for liberal churches either.
They're joining the world instead of trying to either
not be a part of it...or teaching it how it should go.

Looks like the atheists might be taking over...
They're so desperate that there's a scientist (physics?)
that wrote a book about how something could come from
nothnig....Lawrence Krauss.

However, if you ARE going to learn new tricks...
try not to let them be calvinist ideology tricks!
Or reformed, as they like to call themselves.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Lawrence Krauss-I read about him. If something came from nothing, then nothing is an actual thing and that makes it something. The atheists will do anything, including arguing incoherently, to keep God at bay.

 

[Hopeful]

I dont really like to make blanket statements about groups such as Mormons, JW's, Catholics, Baptists, SDA, Pentecostals, AOG, .... as their may be some in each group.

Those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14
JLB

Do you feel that the holy will continue on with the unholy after seeing their errors?

 

[JLB]

Do you feel that the holy will continue on with the unholy after seeing their errors?

I cant speak for everyone.

 

[Hopeful]

I cant speak for everyone.

The question wasn't addressed to everyone.
What is your opinion?
Don't you think the holy will flee a congregation in search of those who are really of God after finding out their leaders are not of God?

 

[Blade]

Hi all.. I don't know anyone here. I sit here wondering shall I share my first thoughts? Christ as head and one body amen and amen! So many of the groups you named would ask YOU to change because in their eyes your in error. Look how we post. Do we read "don't believe me you search you study you pray you find this out for your self" "this what I personally believe". No most the time we post because duh were right. Yeap were just like every other group...that knows the others are all off

It was so different in Paul's day versus now. The enemy full of wisdom knows as Christ said a kingdom divided will always fall. So first thought na.. I will say were not looking at this through His eyes. He never fails...He never loses. He always wins. Just like in each one that believes in Christ ...does not He finish what He started? The only lost are those that truly reject Christ. Every knee will bow every tongue will confess. Just like each one again we see know yet the Father sees you righteous and holy already finished. Its done.. this why you can come before Him boldly and sit in heavenly places. Hes a FAITH GOD! Just a thought

 

[JLB]

The question wasn't addressed to everyone.
What is your opinion?
Don't you think the holy will flee a congregation in search of those who are really of God after finding out their leaders are not of God?

I really would like to think each person in each circumstance would seek God for what and where they are to attend. He may have some stay and pray, while others He may have move on to another Church.


Based on my opinion, I believe we need to hear from God about where we are to attend Church. I know it’s hard to leave when we have friends and family in a Church, even if the leadership is “off”.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Do you feel that the holy will continue on with the unholy after seeing their errors?

Matthew 13:24-30

New King James Version

​

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares​

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

 

[AChristianStoic]

Here's a thought that would really be cool. If the Body focused on rigorous teaching what has been definitively and widely established. Identify the core things that are manifestly true to born-again people around the world, and get that information deep into the Body. We should be able to walk into any church on the planet and hear the same teaching. But no. Each church wants to teach its own little pet doctrines with a dash of orthodox theology on Easter.

Churches can't teach the fundamentals very clearly, not in any real profound way. The Trinity is touched upon in vague terms, and the congregation is mostly told to accept it by faith. Jesus as God from Genesis to Revelation is hinted at but not preached hard. The crucifixion as the fulfillment of a lawful covenant -- serious supernatural business -- is glossed over once or twice a year.

Ask an average Western Christian to explain the Trinity, and they stammer. But boy oh boy, they leave church with strong opinions on tongues.

 

[Walpole]

Here's a thought that would really be cool. If the Body focused on rigorous teaching what has been definitively and widely established. Identify the core things that are manifestly true to born-again people around the world, and get that information deep into the Body. We should be able to walk into any church on the planet and hear the same teaching. But no. Each church wants to teach its own little pet doctrines with a dash of orthodox theology on Easter.

Churches can't teach the fundamentals very clearly, not in any real profound way. The Trinity is touched upon in vague terms, and the congregation is mostly told to accept it by faith. Jesus as God from Genesis to Revelation is hinted at but not preached hard. The crucifixion as the fulfillment of a lawful covenant -- serious supernatural business -- is glossed over once or twice a year.

Ask an average Western Christian to explain the Trinity, and they stammer. But boy oh boy, they leave church with strong opinions on tongues.

The problem with your solution is you do not have a body, organ or mechanism to define and declare authoritatively what is or is not the Christian faith.

What is fundamental to your church might be heterodox to another.

 

[AChristianStoic]

The problem with your solution is you do not have a body, organ or mechanism to define and declare authoritatively what is or is not the Christian faith.

We don't need that. The global Body, by and large, manifests certain things over and over. The global Body has a general consensus (minus pockets of dissenters) concerning the fundamentals. Heresies have come and gone. But Jesus as God who came to fulfill the covenant of Moses -- knowledge of this has remained a steady keel around the world for 2,000 years. Yet Christians today who believe that can't even defend it.

Heresies are abounding because the foundation is crumbling. Objections to the Trinity go largely unanswered. Islam plucks a harvest across the fruited plain because young Christians have no teeth. There's no point in arming your youth against the prosperity message if they can't even explain who Jesus is.

 

[Walpole]

We don't need that. The global Body, by and large, manifests certain things over and over. The global Body has a general consensus (minus pockets of dissenters) concerning the fundamentals. Heresies have come and gone. But Jesus as God who came to fulfill the covenant of Moses -- knowledge of this has remained a steady keel around the world for 2,000 years. Yet Christians today who believe that can't even defend it.

Heresies are abounding because the foundation is crumbling. Objections to the Trinity go largely unanswered. Islam plucks a harvest across the fruited plain because young Christians have no teeth. There's no point in arming your youth against the prosperity message if they can't even explain who Jesus is.

I think you are being quite naive. For example, what is the global consensus on the following?

- Baptismal regeneration
- The necessity of baptism for salvation
- Infant baptism
- The Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ
- Free will
- Once saved, always saved

These are just a few off the top of my head of what I think are important teachings. Do you actually believe there is general global consensus on these? There's not even a consensus on this forum on these topics.

As for the Trinity, I find when most people try to explain the dogma of the Trinity, they end up espousing previously condemned ancient heresies. As St. Augustine once quipped, "Si enim comprehendis non est Deus."

 

[AChristianStoic]

Walpole you’re making my point for me. There is no global consensus on those matters, so we should stop pontificating with opinions on those matters, especially in front of congregations who don’t even understand the gospel. We’re not making an effort to robustly teach a unified convincing message on the gospel. We’re too lazy to preach hard on the basics. Too lazy to learn arithmetic before we jump up and teach calculus.

Then we’re shocked that people who haven’t learned their times tables are getting different answers on calculus.

But hey, since we can’t agree on calculus, then disagreement is just what it is, so it’s foolish of me to recommend we go back to arithmetic.

 

[AChristianStoic]

I don’t know why I keep expecting a different outcome. Seems like I should have learned the lesson by now.

 

[Walpole]

Walpole you’re making my point for me. There is no global consensus on those matters, so we should stop pontificating with opinions on those matters, especially in front of congregations who don’t even understand the gospel. We’re not making an effort to robustly teach a unified convincing message on the gospel. We’re too lazy to preach hard on the basics. Too lazy to learn arithmetic before we jump up and teach calculus.

Then we’re shocked that people who haven’t learned their times tables are getting different answers on calculus.

But hey, since we can’t agree on calculus, then disagreement is just what it is, so it’s foolish of me to recommend we go back to arithmetic.

I think you missed my point. My point is those things are at the heart of gospel. In other words, they are directly related to salvation and there is not a general global consensus on them.

 

[Hopeful]

I really would like to think each person in each circumstance would seek God for what and where they are to attend. He may have some stay and pray, while others He may have move on to another Church.


Based on my opinion, I believe we need to hear from God about where we are to attend Church. I know it’s hard to leave when we have friends and family in a Church, even if the leadership is “off”.
JLB

I probably don't need to say that that is a recipe for disaster.
It means men have elevated some thing above God, which is idolatry.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 13:24-30​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares​

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

Pastors in league with God will not allow the wicked to remain in the group.
Paul's reaction to the adulterer and the covetous is a fair indicator of that.
The parable didn't involve the good staying at an illicit church, but those who were bad at the end of the world.
It is written..."Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14)

 

[stovebolts]

Pastors in league with God will not allow the wicked to remain in the group.
Paul's reaction to the adulterer and the covetous is a fair indicator of that.
The parable didn't involve the good staying at an illicit church, but those who were bad at the end of the world.
It is written..."Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14)

Matthew 21:12-13
King James Version
​

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

 

[Randy]

Many years ago a went to a Greek festival. We were allowed into a Greek orthodox church. We were told that usually unless you were baptized by their their church you would not be allowed
into their sanctuary. I stated and asked, "I was baptized into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit whose name do you baptize in?" That caused the speaker to pause and I forget the response given but my next statement was, "then its for you not me"

 

[Walpole]

Many years ago a went to a Greek festival. We were allowed into a Greek orthodox church. We were told that usually unless you were baptized by their their church you would not be allowed
into their sanctuary. I stated and asked, "I was baptized into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit whose name do you baptize in?" That caused the speaker to pause and I forget the response given but my next statement was, "then its for you not me"

FYI, the Orthodox Church has Trinitarian baptism.