Is Dispensationalism Darwinism?

[jasoncran]

if one feels oblidged to do easter and not Passover then what is that to thee? and if the reverse what is that too thee?

I can do both. same same to me. I prefer only communion and to do that at any time. I can do Passover as well but which is better? communion! that can be done every day and the Passover only once a year. what does communion really represent? the blood and body of Christ crucified for all men. what does Passover mean? the redemption of isreal and one day a redeemer for man would come.

 

[jasoncran]

ah @ the lords. ryan like most jews believes that the TORAH made first in heaven then the rest of creation. well that cant be because unless ryan accepts the sages and the Talmudic position on that its not in solid scripture.

I didn't know the Jews believed that. Now I know where the Muslims got that idea! And, yet, we as Christians believe that the Word was with God and the Word was God and He existed before creation and is not created. So, much, philosophy Jason. So much Philosophy! :crazy

well this is what I believe. that the torah reflects the Light that came to die on the cross. that the Torah is all that jesus is. but it is still a SHADOW of whom inscribed it to moses! remember that jesus is all about love and justice and that perfectly. the torah has that to it , but what does Paul say about the mosaic law and priesthood in Hebrews?

 

[theLords]

well this is what I believe. that the torah reflects the Light that came to die on the cross. that the Torah is all that jesus is. but it is still a SHADOW of whom inscribed it to moses! remember that jesus is all about love and justice and that perfectly. the torah has that to it , but what does Paul say about the mosaic law and priesthood in Hebrews?

I understand and I value your opinion. The Torah to me is a witness to Christ in every jot and tittle. This viewpoint has allowed me to see the Torah through the understanding that it's based on love. It's not easy to hear that the Torah (according to bad interpretations) makes me :aghast: an inferior and tells me I'm unclean once a month. It's not easy being a woman in this patriarchal society, but the truth is that the Law is a witness. I'm not unclean as a woman, man is unclean and needs a redeemer, and women (in this area) are simply the symbolic witness to this. It's not just about not mixing the fibers of the clothes, but not mixing holy with unholy. John Sanford had alot to say about this and I believe he is spot on. His understanding of the Law doesn't allow for it to be trashed by God-haters, but sadly, the Church's does...now that's crazy.

 

[Ryan]

@theLords

The parable of the sower is really significant. The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). We have the basis of like kind producing like kind in the opening chapter of Genesis. So because of that, Jesus could only be nothing but the Word of God (John 1:1-3; John 1:14). In John 1, even he is telling us to go back to the beginning to see what the word was. It was Jesus, always has been. Jesus's Word is to observe the Feasts and Sabbaths and so on. That is the seed which is the Word of God. When you add anything to it, or take something away, in biology that is called a mutation. Very, very rarely, is a mutation for the better. It is always a corruption of what is in the natural. So when I asked if a bible fell from heaven and someone read it with no prior knowledge, what would they be celebrating, observing or eating?

And for handy, I discussed this point with her, and I clearly disproved all things were for man to eat, is like saying all things you can eat in my refrigerator including the insulin and baking soda. So when I say all things, does that mean those two items? What about the hemlock and poisonous plants? Did God say that was good to eat as well? But that is digressing to far.

 

[jasoncran]

you have the gist of what the torah is for.i have yet to understand the extremes with the jewish views. one side embraces it to much. the other treats it like a disease. yea, its the middle ground where we learn.

 

[jasoncran]

God intended man to eat plants ONLY. if the flood didn't occur that noahides wouldn't be meat eaters. if there were no sin there wouldn't any carnivores but only herbivores

really @Ryan , you would eat a grasshopper that dwells in florida and well I know where they live. No thanks

 

[theLords]

@theLords

The parable of the sower is really significant. The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). We have the basis of like kind producing like kind in the opening chapter of Genesis. So because of that, Jesus could only be nothing but the Word of God (John 1:1-3; John 1:14). In John 1, even he is telling us to go back to the beginning to see what the word was. It was Jesus, always has been. Jesus's Word is to observe the Feasts and Sabbaths and so on. That is the seed which is the Word of God. When you add anything to it, or take something away, in biology that is called a mutation. Very, very rarely, is a mutation for the better. It is always a corruption of what is in the natural. So when I asked if a bible fell from heaven and someone read it with no prior knowledge, what would they be celebrating, observing or eating?

And for handy, I discussed this point with her, and I clearly disproved all things were for man to eat, is like saying all things you can eat in my refrigerator including the insulin and baking soda. So when I say all things, does that mean those two items? What about the hemlock and poisonous plants? Did God say that was good to eat as well? But that is digressing to far.

I can't say I agree. I was not born Jewish. I was born into another tribe with a different language, culture, food, and perspective. And, I love my tribe (most of the time haha). I wasn't a Jew that stood on Mt. Sinai and accepted the Mosaic covenant for myself and my future generations. I am a happy gentle gentile who accepted the love of Christ at 21. I believe that the Mosaic Law was for the Jews that accepted it on Mt. Sinai and their descendents and was accomplished, fulfilled, finished in and through Christ.

And, if a Bible fell on an island, I think we'd still have what we have today the understanding that the Law of Grace is the ultimate end authority.

There's no getting around this verse: "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10 (KJV).

The Bible falling from the sky to an unlearned man is one thing, but that the very Jews, the very disciples of Christ spoke these words and gave these instructions to the believers gives them greater authority.

 

[theLords]

God intended man to eat plants ONLY. if the flood didn't occur that noahides wouldn't be meat eaters. if there were no sin there wouldn't any carnivores but only herbivores

really @Ryan , you would eat a grasshopper that dwells in florida and well I know where they live. No thanks

Lol, Jason. I was thinking about that after I posted. That is really the true "beginning."

 

[jasoncran]

the TORAH includes the book of genesis. it doesn't start with moses.

 

[Ryan]

I believe that the Mosaic Law was for the Jews that accepted it on Mt. Sinai and their descendents and was accomplished, fulfilled, finished in and through Christ.

Then you accept the Theory of Punctuated Equilibrium in your believe system? What was once producing chickens, is now producing manatees?

There's no getting around this verse: "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10 (KJV).

You need to read it in context. Psalms 119 is saying something completely different. Could it possibly be talking about the man-made traditions and customs that were still prevalent in their day. I would hardly think that what David called perfect, wonderful, sweeter then honey, could all of a sudden changed in Acts??? :shocked!

 

[theLords]

Then you accept the Theory of Punctuated Equilibrium in your believe system? What was once producing chickens, is now producing manatees?

No, I don't. And, honestly, at this point I'm beginning to find it hard to keep replying to this accusation and much of your sarcasm with honey, Ryan. Let's real it in a bit, yeah ;-)

If "don't mix fibers" is a witness to the weightier law of "Don't be yoked with unbelievers, Don't mix holy with unholy" then I an keeping the Torah each and everyday since I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ, as are you. However, I sin everyday, but it's not okay. It's not okay to break the Torah everyday and God knows that we all do. Which is why Christ did it in my place. The opposite theology shows me that that means the cross is only important for my death but not for my resurrection and new life. I can never keep the Law and so Christ did it for me. It almost seems awful to now go back and do it myself. And, even if I did try then I'd still only be keeping "some" of it. Do you see how this sounds and looks from my perspective? The more we talk about it the more I continue to see that this just isn't the heart of God for us.

You need to read it in context. Psalms 119 is saying something completely different. Could it possibly be talking about the man-made traditions and customs that were still prevalent in their day. I would hardly think that what David called perfect, wonderful, sweeter then honey, could all of a sudden changed in Acts??? :shocked!

The Torah being perfect, wonderful, sweeter than honey does not invalidate that the Law cannot be kept by a mere human. It doesn't invalidate James. That it took God himself to do it because all those saved in OT times were saved through faith alone. I can't remember the literature term for the supposed "contractions" of the Bible (i.e. the children will not be put to death for the sins of the fathers, i will punish sin unto the 3rd/4th generations), but I see the "the Law brings wrath!" "the law is sweet" in that Biblical manner where there is more than meets the eye.

 

[Ryan]

No, I don't. And, honestly, at this point I'm beginning to find it hard to keep replying to this accusation and much of your sarcasm with honey, Ryan. Let's real it in a bit, yeah ;-).

If my language has appeared sarcastic and condescending, I apologize. Sincerely. But the truth is, which you have to admit, the theory of evolution and Theory of Punctuated Equilibrium go hand in hand with the doctrine of most modern, mainstream Christianity. I believe that was not what the Father ever intended. Elijah's ministry was one of "restoration" not making a new "creation". When John told the Pharisees to repent, what was he telling them to turn back to?

If "don't mix fibers" is a witness to the weightier law of "Don't be yoked with unbelievers, Don't mix holy with unholy" then I an keeping the Torah each and everyday since I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ, as are you. However, I sin everyday, but it's not okay. It's not okay to break the Torah everyday and God knows that we all do. Which is why Christ did it in my place. The opposite theology shows me that that means the cross is only important for my death but not for my resurrection and new life. I can never keep the Law and so Christ did it for me. It almost seems awful to now go back and do it myself. And, even if I did try then I'd still only be keeping "some" of it. Do you see how this sounds and looks from my perspective? The more we talk about it the more I continue to see that this just isn't the heart of God for us.

But this isn't a case because Jesus is our righteousness, that it is a checklist we can check off just because Jesus obeyed for us. Jesus called us to walk as he did, as did Paul. How do you think Jesus really lived and what commandments was he keeping.

The Torah being perfect, wonderful, sweeter than honey does not invalidate that the Law cannot be kept by a mere human. It doesn't invalidate James. That it took God himself to do it because all those saved in OT times were saved through faith alone. I can't remember the term for literature term for the supposed "contractions" of the Bible (i.e. the children will not be put to death for the sins of the fathers, i will punish sin unto the 3rd/4th generations), but I see the "the Law brings wrath!" "the law is sweet" in that Biblical manner where there is more than meets the eye.

Ephesians 2:8-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Now that we have been saved by the Passover Lamb, God calls us to eventually mosey on down to Mt. Sinai so we can receive "parental" instructions on how one who has saving faith in Jesus is to walk out their lives. Is my life sometimes a mess. Absolutely. Mt. Sinai cannot save, that is why I need the Passover Lamb and need His yearly cycles to remind me of all his provisions he has provided, and will continue to provide.

 

[theLords]

I believe that was not what the Father ever intended. Elijah's ministry was one of "restoration" not making a new "creation". When John told the Pharisees to repent, what was he telling them to turn back to?

I completely agree that it's about restoration and that is the epitome of what Christ has done. There was complete freedom in the Garden, purity of eating, and now in Christ we have purity of eating. Just a tiny example, but Christ mirrors our pre-sin world not our post-sin Mosaic Law. It's the Garden that is the restoration point not Mt. Sinai. And, if we bring in the New Jerusalem and the New Earth, then we do truly have a "new creation" and "no eye has seen, nor ear heard" what God has waiting for us. So, I venture to say--we're both wrong. We have something neither one of us can imagine as "the beginning" as God's ultimate will and plan for us.

But this isn't a case because Jesus is our righteousness, that it is a checklist we can check off just because Jesus obeyed for us. Jesus called us to walk as he did, as did Paul. How do you think Jesus really lived and what commandments was he keeping

Christ kept the Law in my place knowing I could never justify myself through it. He restored me to pre-fall purity and in Him I live that way everyday and when I sin and fall, He restores me again. Jesus called us to walk as He did and what was that, "perfect and holy," things I could never do if He didn't do it for me.

Ephesians 2:8-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Now that we have been saved by the Passover Lamb, God calls us to eventually mosey on down to Mt. Sinai so we can receive "parental" instructions on how one who has saving faith in Jesus is to walk out their lives. Is my life sometimes a mess. Absolutely. Mt. Sinai cannot save, that is why I need the Passover Lamb and need His yearly cycles to remind me of all his provisions he has provided, and will continue to provide.

And there I don't agree. The Law is strictly for the natural. It says don't ingest unclean food, but Christ calls us to live in the spiritual and not to ingest unclean spiritual food. It goes back to the "weightier matters," not eating crab over watching porn. We know which one Christ finds weightier, and yet they are both matters of diet and what we put in our bodies. Biblically, they are both sin, the one has far greater consequences than the other, but both still are sin and the wages of sin is death. It reminds me of many Muslims I know who are indulging in every sin imaginable, but won't eat pork. The irony, no?

From the "restoration" viewpoint Christ is calling us to live the Torah as it was meant to be lived, as something spiritual because we are spiritual beings. Christ is the Torah because He is the Logos and He is the reference point. Now that we have the Passover Lamb, He alone, His cross, His love, His life reminds me daily of His provisions, like "pray without ceasing" only "celebrate Christ without ceasing." And, it's here that Paul's "to some every day is the same and to some not" really shines in meaning. For some time, I used to find the actual Sabbath day as...rather "silly" and would speak to God about it, because I was so enmeshed in the spirit and presence of God that it seemed "silly" to me to have a single day to "rest in God." I was resting in God 24/7, 7 days a week. It was wonderful. But, I also went through another season where the Sabbath rest was the day I placed all my hope for the week in. I knew that if I just fought and kept going that the Sabbath rest would come and I would meet my King and be in His sweet presence, and the Sabbath rest was the most precious day of my week. I was on both sides of the fence. And, on both sides, I was Spirit led and walking in Him, and in both cases I stood justified in Christ.

If your wardrobe helps you remember the warning of God to not bind yourselves to unbelievers and if eating kosher helps you remember to abstain from taking in spiritual junk, than I think it's great! It's like fasting. Every time your stomach grumbles or you want to eat and then you remember you're fasting, it's a natural reminder of our spiritual world and lives in God and it's awesome and I love fasting for that reason. But, everything in the Bible points to us to the perspective that Mosaic Law is strictly natural with the purpose of witnessing to the Spirit of Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:23 is a good one to bring up. So to call believers to this theology as if it were mandatory is just... the reason for the 2,000 year debate. And as I see our brothers and sisters fighting over theology to the point of blows, I just imagine how pointless it really is, because "now we know in part" and then we'll know in full and we'll see the complete truth of God's will and desire for us and we'll all totally face palm our faces as we find out the truth.

"Love the Lord" and "Love your neighbor" are the greatest commandments, the most weightiest of the weightier commandments, and yet we all can barely do that! Let's encourage each other to keep those two mitzvots and the rest will fall in place. Because if you and I are sincerely loving the Lord and seeking for Him, then He'll show you the error of your ways and you'll abandon your tassels, or He'll show me the error of my ways and I'll pick up a kippa, but we'll both be safe in knowing we stand redeemed and our steps are guarded to bring Him glory and protect us from our logistical blindness.

What we do know is that we are covered in Christ and our hope lies in that and that is, well, brilliant. God bless you, brother. :nod

 

[Eventide]

[MENTION=29288]Eventide[/MENTION]
The people are of Yahweh are identified by several names or terms. They are called Israel (Exodus 4:22; Acts 2:36), the congregation, assembly or church (Deuteronomy 23:1; Acts 2:47), the holy ones or saints (Psalms 50:5; Romans 1:7), His children (Exodus 7:4), His firstborn (Exodus 4:22; Hebrews 12:23), and My people (Exodus 6:7; 1 Peter 2:12). All are terms that refer to His people. The people who are not of his people are also not His assembly, not His church, not Israel or His Saints. They're referred to as the nations, the heathen, or the Gentiles. Those who call themselves Israel, but are not called of Abraham, are really not Israel. Paul says this is Romans 9:6 "...they are not all Israel, who are of Israel..." Is one is not of the faith of Abraham, whether they say they are Israel or not, they they are not His people.

That is another area that is Darwinistic in its logic that one was replaced with another. That is not what the scriptures say.

Well, keep ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel and you're sure to be wise in your own conceits.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Seems like apples and oranges to me...
I disbelieve in evolution not because I find the idea of primitive animals evolving to a more intelligent species somehow repulsive--after all, Gid could have done it that way if He wanted to. I disbelieve in it because creationism seems to me to have more evidence and because the account in the Bible clearly does not support macro evolution.

But if you choose to think of dispensationalism that way, to each their own, I guess. That said, IMO, you could, and have, come up with much better arguments than that.

As for my views on OT law vs dispensationalism, I've stated them before and I'd rather not go over the same points again. I'd rather accept any differences regarding that in peace; either way any of us leans on that subject, we are all one in Christ.

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=32099]theLords[/MENTION] while I agree with some things you said, the one I disagree with most is when you said the "law is natural." Not according to Paul in Romans 7:14
[MENTION=29288]Eventide[/MENTION] I provided 12 scriptures to show that all believers who call upon Jesus is the true Israel, or church, or called out ones, or congregation, or qahal, yet you couldn't provide one. At least take me out for dinner and a movie before you call me conceited.
[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION] you can either accept or reject this premise. What is being demonstrated is because there is no evidence for evolution, it then has to be a theory because it cannot be proven. Just like there is little evidence for dispensationalism, it has to be a theory as well. Have to go back to 1 Corinthians 15:46, God is telling us if we cannot understand all the natural cycles and the life and development of living things which all come from a seed, how can we understand the spiritual things? If evolution doesn't exist in nature, it is impossible for it to exist in our bibles.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide I provided 12 scriptures to show that all believers who call upon Jesus is the true Israel, or church, or called out ones, or congregation, or qahal, yet you couldn't provide one. At least take me out for dinner and a movie before you call me conceited.

Well, good luck believing that Ryan.

And I didn't call you conceited, the word of God (through the Apostle to the GENTILES) does.

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=29288]Eventide[/MENTION] Great argument! The truth hurts, I know. It once hit me smack dab in the face, and it hurted good for awhile.

 

[Eventide]

Well, if you'd like me to simply reference the scriptures for you... then here you go.

Please EXPLAIN what the Apostle to the GENTILES means here..

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Feel free to ignore this Ryan EDITED or better yet, please explain the mystery which the Apostle to the GENTILES does not want Christians to be ignorant of, lest they do become wise in their own conceits.

 

[Eventide]

And once again Ryan... not a single scripture you have referenced teaches that the church of God is in Israel...

Israel is blinded in part and cut off from the root which is Christ, while the gospel of God's Son is going out to the GENTILES...

This is why God raised up the Apostle to the GENTILES, to take the gospel to the GENTILES...

Israel shall remain blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

We also know that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the GENTILES until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled...

There's the fulness of the GENTILES... and there's the times of the GENTILES...

Don't you remember what happened in the book of Acts...?