Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

[Imagican]

What I ask is;

Has man found 'newer ways' in which to become 'closer' to God. Or, through time and change have we simply gravitated 'away' instead? And regardless of one's answer to this, how did it happen?

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Good topic MEC :D

Ecclesiastes 1:2-9 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit has a man of all his labor which he takes under the sun? One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides forever. The sun also arises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to its place where it arose. The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuit. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from where the rivers come, there they return again. All things are full of weariness; man cannot express it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

It's simply just ebb and flow... ebb and flow....

Peace.

 

[mutzrein]

Reminds me of what is says in James about being doers and not just hearers of the word. Like a man looking into a mirror, and then after looking at himself he goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

Certainly that is not new.

Sudden thought: Not so sure about women though. They seem to look into mirrors longer. Woops :-?

 

[Imagican]

Mutz,

And you certainly ARE a 'funny guy'.

No seriously though, has 'doctrine', (created by 'men'), brought us 'closer' to God, or has this, ('man-made doctrine'), simply REPLACED the truth offered by God and led us in a 'different' direction than that intended?

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Briefly this is the way I see it MEC.

It is the Spirit of God that leads those who are born of the Spirit into all truth. And God has revealed to many men down though the ages certain truths which beforehand had seemingly been hidden. As these men preached the truth revealed by God, others, realizing it was indeed true also accepted it. And so, a denomination is born and with it doctrines fundamental to it.

And this is where the problem starts. Not necessarily that the doctrine was wrong, but that acceptance of the doctrine man has adopted, has become a prerequisite to knowing the truth. So, rather than the Spirit leading man into truth, man has created a system that says a doctrine can do it. It is the 'new' law - and none can be made righteous by it.

And on and on it goes.

 

[Imagican]

Ahhhhhhhh. So, this 'doctrine' CAN become MORE important than the ACTUAL truth that may have 'brought it about'? Interesting.

So, now, with this thought in mind, does this doctrine bring me CLOSER to 'the truth' or is it possible that this 'doctrine' could lead me 'away from' the truth?

MEC

 

[lovely]

Hi MEC,

I agree, good topic.

I think the Holy Spirit teaches, and leads, and God will refine His Truth in us because of our doctrine (which can serve to protect us) and in spite of our doctrine (which can be an idol unbending to God's Truth). I think God uses tribulation to break us because of our pride and carelessness in this area. I see some who strictly adhere to a doctrine, or parts, and I see others, who do not adhere to a doctrine in title, but certainly have a set of beliefs (doctrine?). I know beautiful, humble, believers in both camps who have been an example of a follower of Christ before me.

I think we all have a doctrine, and we can count on the fact that parts of it are false, and that our methods and application of the Truthful parts are lacking as well. The believer, desires to be discipled by Christ...this person simply loves God, and others, and seeks to learn at His feet...to know Him, be like Him, and glorify Him. I think that it must be possible to have this mindset...Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and still have a doctrine. The Bible teaches us doctrine, and we all have one in some form.

I see no reason for us to all agree, or for us to compromise our beliefs to be unified. I don't think our beliefs will lead us away from the Truth, if we are truly His, and are obedient to Him by putting Him first and others before ourselves. I think our beliefs, even the wrong ones, will lead us closer, because of God's process of teaching us by helping us unlearn the things of the world...and to steer from new false teachings that arise in, and out of, the church.

God has a reason for all parts of the body, and if someone, or some denomination, is one of those parts we do not have to understand, agree, or include...God will do that. We can adhere to a main-stream doctrine, or we can be more of a gleaner, but I don't think one somehow will equal more Truth than the other. I do not believe it is good to be swayed by every wind of doctrine, or to be unbending before God, and so we must pray for wisdom, discernment, and study go show ourselves approved unto God to learn how to manuever through both pitfalls. We should move when He directs, not because someone has a good argument, or because we like most of their other teachings, or because we like a new idea...or an old one, or because we are sentimental and desiring to include all people and ideas. We must walk by faith, not by sight. Christ is the head of the church, and we are to simply submit to Him, and know that He has it under control.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Drew]

I am not sure whether my post really addresses the topic since I do not plan to comment on doctrine per se....

I suggest that "through time", God is building the kingdom of heaven here on planet Earth and the world is indeed "getting better" as time progresses. I know many would dismiss this idea of "progress". I will not anticipate any particular objections but will simply propose that the idea that things were better in the past is probably a myth born out of nostalgia, not an objective appraisal of the facts.

I believe that God's kingdom is being built over time and is slowly subsuming more of our world within its confines. Although there are other kingdoms that do battle with the kingdom of heaven, God is slowly winning - the world is evolving slowly into the way that God wants it to be.

I say this realizing full well the Scriptures teach of a catclysmic end to our world as we know it. I do not deny this, but rather think that such a downturn will be an "anomaly" in an overall trend which is otherwise "upward".

The kingdom of heaven is coming into being even now, and has been doing so, even before the advent of Jesus into the world (I can explain why I say this, if anyone wants to know). The consequences of God's "divine conspiracy" to guide our world into a better state through advancing His kingdom is simply this: as time progresses. the world gets more and more like the kind of world God intends it to be.

As a result, we do indeed "see" more and more of God's character reflected in human society as time progresses. So in this sense, I would submit that we all are becoming "closer to God" through time.

 

[Solo]

I am not sure whether my post really addresses the topic since I do not plan to comment on doctrine per se....

I suggest that "through time", God is building the kingdom of heaven here on planet Earth and the world is indeed "getting better" as time progresses. I know many would dismiss this idea of "progress". I will not anticipate any particular objections but will simply propose that the idea that things were better in the past is probably a myth born out of nostalgia, not an objective appraisal of the facts.

I believe that God's kingdom is being built over time and is slowly subsuming more of our world within its confines. Although there are other kingdoms that do battle with the kingdom of heaven, God is slowly winning - the world is evolving slowly into the way that God wants it to be.

I say this realizing full well the Scriptures teach of a catclysmic end to our world as we know it. I do not deny this, but rather think that such a downturn will be an "anomaly" in an overall trend which is otherwise "upward".

The kingdom of heaven is coming into being even now, and has been doing so, even before the advent of Jesus into the world (I can explain why I say this, if anyone wants to know). The consequences of God's "divine conspiracy" to guide our world into a better state through advancing His kingdom is simply this: as time progresses. the world gets more and more like the kind of world God intends it to be.

As a result, we do indeed "see" more and more of God's character reflected in human society as time progresses. So in this sense, I would submit that we all are becoming "closer to God" through time.

Drew,
After reading your post, this verse of Scripture came to my mind:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate F6 concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:1-9

 

[Drew]

Hi Solo:

Perhaps my post could have been clearer. I believe that the state of affairs described in the scripture that you post will indeed come to pass. However I think that this represents a relatively short term "downturn" in the state of the world. This text does not require us to believe that the world is progressivley getting worse over the centuries.

 

[cyberjosh]

and there is no new thing under the sun.

It's simply just ebb and flow... ebb and flow....

Remember, Solomon (the Preacher) was discussing the vanities of human life left to itself. This does not include the vibrant life with God, especially under the New Covenant age we live in.

"Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." (Isaiah 42:9)

"Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it?" (Isaiah 43:19)

"You have heard; look at all this. And you, will you not declare it? I proclaim to you new things from this time, Even hidden things which you have not known" (Isaiah 48:6)

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

God gives us fresh life, and the Bible also tells us that his mercies toward us are fresh (new) each day.

So man doesn't really find "new ways" to come to God, but God finds new mercies to pour out on people and to draw them to Himself. God is the initiator, the creator, and the refresher of all things. We come to him because he first came to us, we love him because he first loved us. God initiates the things in our relationship, not us. Be we can reciprocate and pray for God to work in new ways in our life. Praise God for his new mercies and initiating the "days of refreshing" (Acts 3:19) through Jesus.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo:

Perhaps my post could have been clearer. I believe that the state of affairs described in the scripture that you post will indeed come to pass. However I think that this represents a relatively short term "downturn" in the state of the world. This text does not require us to believe that the world is progressivley getting worse over the centuries.

Hell-o Drew,
This post brings these Scriptures to my mind:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3:3-13


1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:1-4

 

[Imagican]

lovely,

Once again you offer words of wisdom and grace. Your post is MOST refreshing.

I agree WHOLE-HEARTEDLY in your statement concerning 'unity'. God reveals THAT which He will AS He will, to WHOM He will and there is NO DOUBT about this. Some would 'deny it', but it takes MANY 'different pieces' to 'form a BODY'. How this is done and the EXACT nature of 'each part' is something that man has struggled with since 'the beginning'.

This is NOT to say that ANY part of the 'body' is able to BE a part without certain understanding. But, as we have clearly seen, all 'understanding' is NOT needed in order to accept the loving gifts that God has to offer us through His Son.

And ALL understanding isn't even POSSIBLE to ALL people. We 'each' have 'our OWN' relationship with Our Father. There IS, most definitely, a NEED for a 'communal relationship' with ALL of God's children, but that they come to COMPLETE agreement over 'every single thought' does NOT mean that we should 'shun' those that ARE, INDEED, our brothers and sisters simply because we do NOT agree with 'their understanding'.

And this is the 'why' of this thread. Should 'man-made' doctrine truly be allowed by 'Christians' to 'separate' God's children? I mean that we ALL agree that an acceptance of Christ is PARAMOUNT to a relationship with God. But we should certainly all agree also that there is CERTAINLY a 'difference' in God's truth, and 'man-made' doctrine.

Paul offered MUCH that clearly shows that beyond the 'basics' WE EACH are convicted by The Spirit so far as understanding is concerned. And though we were commanded to 'gather', this in NO MEANS means that we MUST 'accept ALL understanding' of 'others' in order to grow 'closer' to God AND each other.

'Knock and it shall be opened, ask and ye SHALL receive'. These words PLAINLY show that 'anyone' that is willing to submit themselves to The Father WILL be granted the 'understanding that they NEED'. Otherwise these words mean NOTHING.

And there are many that seem oblivious to this point. Choosing instead, to INSIST that 'others' MUST believe 'exactly' as they in order to be a 'part' of the Body.

Thank you for the offering. Your comments and understandings are ALWAYS a 'blessing' to those that listen and heed them.

MEC

 

[Drew]

Hi Solo (and others):

I see nothing in the scriptures that you have posted that rules out a situation whereby the world gets better and better over time and then begins a rapid descent into the chaos described in these texts.

I see no scriptural warrant to believe that things will get progressively worse over time. Granted, things will be bad at "the end", but this does not rule out a long period of "improvement" before that point.

 

[stovebolts]

Fantastic post Josh, thanks for bringing in the other side of the story! It was very well done!

 

[Imagican]

Hi Solo (and others):

I see nothing in the scriptures that you have posted that rules out a situation whereby the world gets better and better over time and then begins a rapid descent into the chaos described in these texts.

I see no scriptural warrant to believe that things will get progressively worse over time. Granted, things will be bad at "the end", but this does not rule out a long period of "improvement" before that point.

While I had NO intention of debate 'as such' I feel compelled to 'step in' here.

Let me 'see' if I undertand you correctly here Drew. Are you saying that you believe that 'people' as a 'whole' are walking on 'more SECURE' Spiritual ground NOW than, let's say, two thousand years ago. That the 'world' is a 'better' place NOW than it was 'then'?

I await a 'response'.

MEC

 

[Drew]

Hello Imagican (MEC):

I am indeed saying the the world (on the whole) is a better place than it was, for example, 2 thousand years ago.

 

[Guest]

Hello Imagican (MEC):

I am indeed saying the the world (on the whole) is a better place than it was, for example, 2 thousand years ago.

Really? Wan't "The Fall" the beginning of a slippery slope (if you will) downward?

Isn't the effect of sin degrading? How is it that the world can be a 'better' place now?

 

[Imagican]

Hello Imagican (MEC):

I am indeed saying the the world (on the whole) is a better place than it was, for example, 2 thousand years ago.

Then I contend that 'the world' MUST be 'what' you live FOR.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Really? Wan't "The Fall" the beginning of a slippery slope (if you will) downward?

Isn't the effect of sin degrading? How is it that the world can be a 'better' place now?

Now, there is a 'voice of reason and wisdom'. Thank you for your offering aLone. There certainly ARE 'some' with understanding offered 'from above'.

MEC