Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[childeye]

Back to the OP; "Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"....by all accounts, there are some in here, based on their own explaination of salvation from the start of this, that should belive that works are required for salvation, yet I've not heard anyone own up to that. .....Odd

Because the idea that faith and works are mutually exclusive and in degrees at that is in semantics a minefield. Besides Danus, I am really finding the exchange presently going on quite interesting. It's amazing how the conversation has led here and how Truth is one big picture which for us is put together one little piece at a time.

 

[glorydaz]

??? :eeeekkk

You are confusing the moral law with ceremonial laws. As I told you before, laws of cult (public worship) are not the same thing as moral laws. And SURELY, you MUST know that these cultic laws do not apply to God???

SURELY you must know that God is not required to sacrifice bulls and blood?

SURELY???

Mosaic Law does not apply to God

Uh, it was God who gave Moses the Law, but that is not what we're talking about and you know it.

No, it was only the Law of Moses that required the sacrifice of bulls and blood.
God required the blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb without blemish, to take away the sins of the world.

The life of the soul is the blood. His soul (blood) was an "offering for sin". It pleased God to bruise Christ for His "righteous servant" justified many...he bore their iniquities. Jesus was an "offering" whether you like it or not.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Clearly, you are clueless. Anyone following this thread can see that you are way off base. They will also note that you provide no Scriptures to back up your own personal musings...

You seem overly concerned with what others may think, and what I've been posting is hardly my "personal musings". Most Christians are not confused about this issue at all.

To pay the devil, right? Yes, we are well aware of your thinking that God was bound by the Mosaic cultic laws

LOL You do make me chuckle, Joe. This has nothing to do with the devil. It's a matter of satisfying God's requirements, and these constant allusions to the "cultic laws" of Moses are just plain silly. Most people realize the Mosaic Law was for the Jews and were but a picture of what God required. No longer real lambs, but a perfect Lamb of God. He is the mercy of God to mankind. Read up on the Mercy Seat, Joe, you just might learn something.

 

[glorydaz]

Back to the OP; "Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"....by all accounts, there are some in here, based on their own explaination of salvation from the start of this, that should belive that works are required for salvation, yet I've not heard anyone own up to that. .....Odd

Good works follow salvation. If you're claiming that believing is a work of man, then you're mistaken.

If you consider opening the door as a work of man, then why does Jesus say to open the door?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If you believe that looking when Christ is lifted up is a work, then why are we told to look?

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Why does God tell us to choose life? Or, for that matter, why does Joshua tell us to choose whom we will serve?

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Once we're born again of God, we manifest the fruits of the Spirit....they always follow after a circumcised heart.

 

[francisdesales]

Uh, it was God who gave Moses the Law, but that is not what we're talking about and you know it.

No, it was only the Law of Moses that required the sacrifice of bulls and blood.
God required the blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb without blemish, to take away the sins of the world.

Yea, I know what you are talking about. You think that the Mosaic Law and its dictates (sacrificing blood) applies to God in heaven. The same rules apply to God as man. God must ALSO sacrifice, because the Law (cue crazy Halloween music) said so...

This is what your "doctrine" is based upon. No Scriptures. Just saying it over and over again...

I have given you numerous citations from Scriptures that tells us that God does not require blood. Words from God. But you, like Israel, won't have it...

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luke 13:34

WHERE'S THE CALL FOR BLOOD FIRST????

Who could miss the loving desire of God in these words? Where do we find the sense that God awaits the perfect law follower to be killed before He gathers up His people?

What "prevents" God, as I mentioned before, is man. Lack of repentance. NOTHING is holding God back, CERTAINLY NOT the Mosaic Law, except His will to have man turn in repentance. No Law. No paybacks. No satisfaction. Nothing but a lover awaiting the beloved.

Jesus was an "offering" whether you like it or not.

He offered himself out of love. Not out of necessity. We've been through this.

If you think otherwise, provide Scriptures...

Here is your "tradition of men" in a nice little bumper sticker.

God the Son did not die out of love, but out of command and demand for blood by His blood-thirsty Father, so that the Father could pay the command and demands of the Mosaic Law...



Forum, I rest my case. Scriptures have been posted to prove he is wrong, he has posted none to back himself up. Is there anything left to say? Maybe we should just pray for him...

 

[Danus]

Good works follow salvation. If you're claiming that believing is a work of man, then you're mistaken.

Once we're born again of God, we manifest the fruits of the Spirit....they always follow after a circumcised heart.

We agree to this, but this is what I'm surprised to hear you say based on some of your post in regards to man's ability to make the right choices that lead up to his own salvation.

If good works follow his salvation, but prior to his salvation there are no good works and salvation is not of good works, and only God does a good work in us, why then does God hold an unsaved man accountable to his own salvation?

You don't see one big huge problem with that concept? At all? That does not seem to be a contradiction to you?


On a side note: How about you describe to me what you mean by a "circumcised heart", is this to say that the flesh is cutaway from the heart once we are born again in a literal sense?

 

[glorydaz]

We agree to this, but this is what I'm surprised to hear you say based on some of your post in regards to man's ability to make the right choices that lead up to his own salvation.

If good works follow his salvation, but prior to his salvation there are no good works and salvation is not of good works, and only God does a good work in us, why then does God hold an unsaved man accountable to his own salvation?

You don't see one big huge problem with that concept? At all? That does not seem to be a contradiction to you?


On a side note: How about you describe to me what you mean by a "circumcised heart", is this to say that the flesh is cutaway from the heart once we are born again in a literal sense?

Okay, let's see if I can be more clear. God draws all men toward the Light by the Gospel message. We can turn away from the Light because we love our sins too much to let them go, or we can choose to look. When we look, we see our sins as they are and we repent and believe. Repentance is when God circumcises our heart and replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh. That just means he gives us a new heart to follow Him.

This is why I always use the picture of the open prison door. Christ has opened the door by His death on the cross (reconciliation), when we see the light we come.......or we sit in the cell and die. We look...we live (like the serpent on the stick). The seed sown in the good ground means our hearts have been prepared to receive the Word of God. God brings us to this place in our lives, by many different means...he drags us, if you will, to the light.

We choose at that point to believe (trust) that what we see is true or not. Sometimes it takes years for a man to see his sin in the light of the Word...he may never come...he refuses. As the Lord says, "Ye would not," even though he desires to draw us under the shelter of His wings. He knocks on the door, but we must open it. He does all the work, hands us this gift on a silver platter, but we must take and eat. We must drink, we must look, we must open. He won't do that for us, which is why man has a responsibility to obey...to come and repent.

 

[freeway]

I'm not going to read through all the post on this one other than to just answer the original question.. Faith only. then Faith in Jesus result in good works. the theif on the cross did not have any good works.. but he recieved eternal life form our Lord.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm not going to read through all the post on this one other than to just answer the original question.. Faith only. then Faith in Jesus result in good works. the theif on the cross did not have any good works.. but he recieved eternal life form our Lord.

You got it right!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We agree to this, but this is what I'm surprised to hear you say based on some of your post in regards to man's ability to make the right choices that lead up to his own salvation.

If good works follow his salvation, but prior to his salvation there are no good works and salvation is not of good works, and only God does a good work in us, why then does God hold an unsaved man accountable to his own salvation?

You don't see one big huge problem with that concept? At all? That does not seem to be a contradiction to you?


On a side note: How about you describe to me what you mean by a "circumcised heart", is this to say that the flesh is cutaway from the heart once we are born again in a literal sense?

Danus-----If good works follow his salvation, but prior to his salvation there are no good works and salvation is not of good works, and only God does a good work in us, why then does God hold an unsaved man accountable to his own salvation?

Grubal-----Good works follow due to the fact that, after your "born again" you have the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life, bringing about good works/fruits...Prior to salvation we only produce "worldly" good works that do not bring glory to God or spiritual reward to us...Because we, have not the Spirit in our life...Unsaved man cannot gain salvation through his "worldly" good works...God's Grace is not for sale and you cannot purchase it with your worthless "worldly" works. God offers His forgiveness and mercy (through the work of Christ) as a gift to mankind based upon God's love for humanity...

 

[Danus]

Danus-----If good works follow his salvation, but prior to his salvation there are no good works and salvation is not of good works, and only God does a good work in us, why then does God hold an unsaved man accountable to his own salvation?

Grubal-----Good works follow due to the fact that, after your "born again" you have the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life, bringing about good works/fruits...Prior to salvation we only produce "worldly" good works that do not bring glory to God or spiritual reward to us...Because we, have not the Spirit in our life...Unsaved man cannot gain salvation through his "worldly" good works...God's Grace is not for sale and you cannot purchase it with your worthless "worldly" works. God offers His forgiveness and mercy (through the work of Christ) as a gift to mankind based upon God's love for humanity...

But, according to your theology, you can purchase your own salvation by your own means of your own choice, completely void of God, and you say this is not an example of works but of your own faith, which you further say does not come from God, but from man himself by man's own choice, of which is of that man only....and again, void of any effort what so ever of God.

From all that you have expressed, Grubal this is what you have described as your theology, your belief and understanding, to which you say is Gospel based on all the scriptures you've used that talk about Man "DOING" something to initiate salvation first. Man makes the first move in your "biblical schema", but you don't label that as man's work, man's effort. Something is missing.

On the one hand you suggest that man's efforts are worthless, yet on the other hand man's choices are either right or wrong. Choosing God is the right choice, not choosing God is the wrong choice, and you say this is no effort of man, but that God also has nothing to do with it. ???? Does not add up because God is left waiting on man to make the right choice, a choice he indicates man will not make, can not make, hasn't the ability to make. This leaves a big hole you still have to fill in.

So we have two un-saved men. Both hear the word of God and one decides it's not for him and he's done. The other chooses God, still unjustified because he has yet to muster his faith before he can make the choice under your theology as you explained earlier. You believe that once man has faith from himself, he then chooses God by himself and then he is saved by God. He get's a gold star of salvation from God for what that man did by making the "right" choice. All God did, under your theology, is provide the word, and the justification, but not in any way the ability of man to do this. Under your theology, man has to do something. He has to 1. Come to God, 2. hear the word, 3. provide his own faith, and finally 4 believe by way of his faith. Then, and only then can he also do 5 repent. Then God will do the remaining bit and justify, thus save. But, you say this is not an example of works that come from man.

The church in Rome would be more apt to agree with you, as far as man's culpability and responsibility, in saying Faith + Something = Salvation. However, they would scratch their heads on the remaining part where you say you don't believe what you actually say, as you've said, yet you describe it in your post, and you get away with it in your mind by suggesting that faith is something of man, and not of God, there by saying God rewards man with salvation for man's faith in him....and that's not a work or effort by God, since the faith does not come from God, it comes from man.

This is a wrap on your theology. It does not make a lick of logical sense. It's a square peg hammered into a round hole and it needs a lot more "work" because it's extremely weak. If you present this to an unbeliever and he questions you as I have, you've not spread the gospel at all and that person is not going to see that you've said anything credible. What you have here in your theology is part of the good news, the rest is bad news since it requires of man what man can not provide. Rome makes way more sense with Sacrament of Penance in conjunction to ones faith.

Okay, let's see if I can be more clear. God draws all men toward the Light by the Gospel message. We can turn away from the Light because we love our sins too much to let them go, or we can choose to look. When we look, we see our sins as they are and we repent and believe. Repentance is when God circumcises our heart and replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh. That just means he gives us a new heart to follow Him.

This is why I always use the picture of the open prison door. Christ has opened the door by His death on the cross (reconciliation), when we see the light we come.......or we sit in the cell and die. We look...we live (like the serpent on the stick). The seed sown in the good ground means our hearts have been prepared to receive the Word of God. God brings us to this place in our lives, by many different means...he drags us, if you will, to the light.

We choose at that point to believe (trust) that what we see is true or not. Sometimes it takes years for a man to see his sin in the light of the Word...he may never come...he refuses. As the Lord says, "Ye would not," even though he desires to draw us under the shelter of His wings. He knocks on the door, but we must open it. He does all the work, hands us this gift on a silver platter, but we must take and eat. We must drink, we must look, we must open. He won't do that for us, which is why man has a responsibility to obey...to come and repent.

In your description of salvation you describe God doing it. God dragging man to the light, God getting man to see his sin, and influencing man. I agree totally.

What I'm confused on is your agreeing with, and backing up in other post, of man's effort to come to God and choose God on his own.

What you describe above is very Calvinistic, it's very Luther...God does all the work. The one question we've yet raised is, Does God know the result before hand? Now Luther and Calvin would say he does. I don't know what you or Grubal would say, and that's another topic, but if God does the work, and I agree he does, then man does nothing to save himself other than realize his own culpability, but I would contend that he can not do that part, until he is justified, and he can not be justified until he has faith, and he does not have faith until God, as you described above, intervenes. If God does the work then God also knows the outcome of the work he does before he does it, otherwise he's not the very powerful God we read about in the bible.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

But, according to your theology, you can purchase your own salvation by your own means of your own choice, completely void of God, and you say this is not an example of works but of your own faith, which you further say does not come from God, but from man himself by man's own choice, of which is of that man only....and again, void of any effort what so ever of God.

From all that you have expressed, Grubal this is what you have described as your theology, your belief and understanding, to which you say is Gospel based on all the scriptures you've used that talk about Man "DOING" something to initiate salvation first. Man makes the first move in your "biblical schema", but you don't label that as man's work, man's effort. Something is missing.

On the one hand you suggest that man's efforts are worthless, yet on the other hand man's choices are either right or wrong. Choosing God is the right choice, not choosing God is the wrong choice, and you say this is no effort of man, but that God also has nothing to do with it. ???? Does not add up because God is left waiting on man to make the right choice, a choice he indicates man will not make, can not make, hasn't the ability to make. This leaves a big hole you still have to fill in.

So we have two un-saved men. Both hear the word of God and one decides it's not for him and he's done. The other chooses God, still unjustified because he has yet to muster his faith before he can make the choice under your theology as you explained earlier. You believe that once man has faith from himself, he then chooses God by himself and then he is saved by God. He get's a gold star of salvation from God for what that man did by making the "right" choice. All God did, under your theology, is provide the word, and the justification, but not in any way the ability of man to do this. Under your theology, man has to do something. He has to 1. Come to God, 2. hear the word, 3. provide his own faith, and finally 4 believe by way of his faith. Then, and only then can he also do 5 repent. Then God will do the remaining bit and justify, thus save. But, you say this is not an example of works that come from man.

The church in Rome would be more apt to agree with you, as far as man's culpability and responsibility, in saying Faith + Something = Salvation. However, they would scratch their heads on the remaining part where you say you don't believe what you actually say, as you've said, yet you describe it in your post, and you get away with it in your mind by suggesting that faith is something of man, and not of God, there by saying God rewards man with salvation for man's faith in him....and that's not a work or effort by God, since the faith does not come from God, it comes from man.

This is a wrap on your theology. It does not make a lick of logical sense. It's a square peg hammered into a round hole and it needs a lot more "work" because it's extremely weak. If you present this to an unbeliever and he questions you as I have, you've not spread the gospel at all and that person is not going to see that you've said anything credible. What you have here in your theology is part of the good news, the rest is bad news since it requires of man what man can not provide. Rome makes way more sense with Sacrament of Penance in conjunction to ones faith.



In your description of salvation you describe God doing it. God dragging man to the light, God getting man to see his sin, and influencing man. I agree totally.

What I'm confused on is your agreeing with, and backing up in other post, of man's effort to come to God and choose God on his own.

What you describe above is very Calvinistic, it's very Luther...God does all the work. The one question we've yet raised is, Does God know the result before hand? Now Luther and Calvin would say he does. I don't know what you or Grubal would say, and that's another topic, but if God does the work, and I agree he does, then man does nothing to save himself other than realize his own culpability, but I would contend that he can not do that part, until he is justified, and he can not be justified until he has faith, and he does not have faith until God, as you described above, intervenes. If God does the work then God also knows the outcome of the work he does before he does it, otherwise he's not the very powerful God we read about in the bible.

What you don't seem to quite grasp is that, Glory is saying the same thing as I...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...The Spirit uses the Bible message to speak to our hearts and to convict us of sin...After which, we must decide or not, to place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior...If we decide (to place our faith) the Spirit comes into our life and seals us/ cleanses us and puts us in the body of Christ, at which point we are considered a "child of God." I won't address the rest of your "diatribe" due to the fact there's to much repetition all ready...

 

[reba]

What you don't seem to quite grasp is that, Glory is saying the same thing as I...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...The Spirit uses the Bible message to speak to our hearts and to convict us of sin...After which, we must decide or not, to place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior...If we decide (to place our faith) the Spirit comes into our life and seals us/ cleanses us and puts us in the body of Christ, at which point we are considered a "child of God." I won't address the rest of your "diatribe" due to the fact there's to much repetition all ready...

I read this as mans will being 'higher' than the will of God. We must decide to allow God.?...
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Danus]

What you don't seem to quite grasp is that, Glory is saying the same thing as I...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...The Spirit uses the Bible message to speak to our hearts and to convict us of sin...After which, we must decide or not, to place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior...If we decide (to place our faith) the Spirit comes into our life and seals us/ cleanses us and puts us in the body of Christ, at which point we are considered a "child of God." I won't address the rest of your "diatribe" due to the fact there's to much repetition all ready...

Well, then let me ask you a few questions.

Faith comes by hearing? Many have heard the word and have no faith.If faith in God comes from hearing the word of God then how is it so many have no faith in God when the word of God has been virtually preached everywhere?

So here is your III Phase plan for salvation, or this is God's plan as you describe it. If that's phase I of salvation (hearing the word and having faith from the word) it does not seem to work very well since many hear the word but not all develop this faith. So is that them? (man) or is it God who is dropping the ball here with the faith part?

Phase II in your formula is the "conviction of the Spirit", and the way you have it laid out here, phase I has to happen before phase II can happen, then and only then can phase III take place which in your description is all man...making a choice to accept God.

I would think God must be quite honored at this point in HIS plan where WE choose him, and so I guess it stands to reason that he might grant us salvation at that point.

I'm I understanding your idea of biblical salvation correctly?


I do not follow the three phase plan you described. I did not choose God, he chose me the moment I made the only decision I could possibly make as a man, and that was to surrender to the will of God. Surrender means to give up. Give up my will for me, and surrender it (My will) to the will of God. It was only then that I found faith...not from the word of God. I had been hearing the word all my life. That did nothing for me. My faith came when I gave up myself to God, a God I did not want by the way. I will say though that from there my faith and desire for God strengthened as I began to listen to Gods word and further my relationship with God.

So for me, my salvation is totally nothing on my own. I had no expectations of being saved or anything at the moment I gave up and surrendered. I had no idea what this God that frankly I did not even believe in, would do if in fact he was real at all......then and only then did I meet God for the first time in my life. Then and only then did he reveal himself to me, and only then did I know for a fact that God is in fact very real.

SO, I find your salvation curious since it runs counter to my own experience and that which I read in the bible. Can you help me understand your salvation any better then I have expressed?

 

[francisdesales]

The church in Rome would be more apt to agree with you, as far as man's culpability and responsibility, in saying Faith + Something = Salvation. However, they would scratch their heads on the remaining part where you say you don't believe what you actually say, as you've said, yet you describe it in your post, and you get away with it in your mind by suggesting that faith is something of man, and not of God, there by saying God rewards man with salvation for man's faith in him....and that's not a work or effort by God, since the faith does not come from God, it comes from man.

You are correct in your synopsis. There does seem to be a lack of a fundamental Christian idea, as you describe it - lack of the effect of original sin. Indeed, the idea that man can come unaided to God has been condemned at the Council of Orange in the 6th century - probably a Council that most of the Reformed mindset would wholeheartedly agree with.

http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html:

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

Regards

 

[childeye]

=francisdesales;587659]http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html:

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

Let me get this straight Joe. This is what Catholics are supposed to believe? So how is it culpability can be placed upon those who can't believe, through any subjective perspective as in freewill? This is a purely objective point of view you are presenting here giving all impetus to Godliness.

 

[Danus]

You are correct in your synopsis. There does seem to be a lack of a fundamental Christian idea, as you describe it - lack of the effect of original sin. Indeed, the idea that man can come unaided to God has been condemned at the Council of Orange in the 6th century - probably a Council that most of the Reformed mindset would wholeheartedly agree with.

http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html:

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

Regards

Good link. Thanks.

In my experience I would say most of us would agree with, however some hold a mixed bag.

 

[glorydaz]

What you don't seem to quite grasp is that, Glory is saying the same thing as I...Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...The Spirit uses the Bible message to speak to our hearts and to convict us of sin...After which, we must decide or not, to place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior...If we decide (to place our faith) the Spirit comes into our life and seals us/ cleanses us and puts us in the body of Christ, at which point we are considered a "child of God." I won't address the rest of your "diatribe" due to the fact there's to much repetition all ready...

Amen. We're persuaded by the Gospel message so we trust and believe.

Some might be "persuaded" but they love the life they have too much to follow after the Lord.... like the rich young ruler, and they turn back.

We choose life.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[glorydaz]

God the Son did not die out of love, but out of command and demand for blood by His blood-thirsty Father, so that the Father could pay the command and demands of the Mosaic Law...



Forum, I rest my case. Scriptures have been posted to prove he is wrong, he has posted none to back himself up. Is there anything left to say? Maybe we should just pray for him...

Six out of seven isn't too bad, Joe. I never said the demands of the Mosaic Law, and I've posted scripture til I'm blue in the face, but you don't have any spiritual understanding. Beside which...you're slandering God by denying the Blood of Jesus Christ.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen. We're persuaded by the Gospel message so we trust and believe.

Some might be "persuaded" but they love the life they have too much to follow after the Lord.... like the rich young ruler, and they turn back.

We choose life.

AMEN to that!!!

 

[johnnyglaire]

Having a faith because only for salvation is a no,no for me. Faith is a heartily felt by someone, because if you say faith is only necessary because you need to be save then you don't have faith you just force yourself on having them without really understanding it.