Is Gay 'Love' Real?

[stovebolts]

Thats a copout Stove. Define what the word 'romance' means to you.

You wanna give me advice on what my wife desires so come on....follow thru.

I don't think it's a copout Strangelove. We can 'define' words all we want, but until we experience it, it's just intellect.

When I speak about romance, it's recapturing, sustaining and growing that feeling where when your wife looks at you, you're the light of her world, and when you look at her, she's perfect in every way. It's about sustaining, nurturing and growing that thing you once had, but write off as... how did you put that?....

'Romantic love' is the showoff shallow cheesy exchange that courting couples have between eachother and that some couples carry on into their marriage in the vain hope that they can convince themselves that they are still young. It's the flowers, the birthdays, the dinner dates, the jewelery...all the showy material stuff.

You'll notice most married couples leave all that alone once they get into the swing of what a marriage is really about. Trust, commitment, responsibility, kids, teamwork etc.

Marriage, or relationships as a whole isn't just about the trust, commitment, responsibility and teamwork because those traits should have been there as those cheesy exchanges felt out one another. Why is it that as a couple, you can grow in trust, commitment, responsibility, teamwork etc, but dinner dates, jewelery, birthday's... the things that brought you together emotionally go to the wayside as mere "material' stuff? Why is it that the simple stuff that puts a little smile on anothers face is so hard to maintain, and then we wonder why commitment and responsibility is so much work...

Here's a link you may enjoy
http://loveandrespect.com/

 

[Strangelove]

I don't think it's a copout Strangelove. We can 'define' words all we want, but until we experience it, it's just intellect.

Well...you obviously DO think its a copout otherwise you wouldn't capitulate and give me your definition.

When I speak about romance, it's recapturing, sustaining and growing that feeling where when your wife looks at you, you're the light of her world, and when you look at her, she's perfect in every way. It's about sustaining, nurturing and growing that thing you once had, but write off as... how did you put that?....

Um...yeah....me and the old lady look at eachother...lol......we have the looks buddy. We love eachother. We just dont pamper eachother thas'all.

Marriage, or relationships as a whole isn't just about the trust, commitment, responsibility and teamwork because those traits should have been there as those cheesy exchanges felt out one another. Why is it that as a couple, you can grow in trust, commitment, responsibility, teamwork etc, but dinner dates, jewelery, birthday's... the things that brought you together emotionally go to the wayside as mere "material' stuff? Why is it that the simple stuff that puts a little smile on anothers face is so hard to maintain, and then we wonder why commitment and responsibility is so much work...

Commitment and responsibility isn't hard work at all. You just do the right thing. A lot of people make it out to be hard coz it gives them an excuse not to do it.

I got plenty of ways of putting a smile on my wifes face without pampering and lavishing gifts. If that kinda stuff makes you and your wife happy then all power to ya friend. Lolz//// If I bought my wife some jewelery she'd be furious!

What d'ya think Jesus would say on the issue?

Whats important Jesus? Buying your wife lots of gifts and mollycoddling her like a child or commitment and responsibility?

 

[stovebolts]

Well Strangelove,
I aint married to ya, and I aint married to your wife... Each person, man and woman has their own love language and by that I mean that each responds differently to different types of stimulation from their mate.

If you're not meeting your partners needs by speaking in their native tongue, then all the rest is hard work and to say that it's wrong, or it's not romantic to give a gift, or do something to put a smile on your spouses face is wrong.

While your wife would get mad at you for buying her a fine piece of jewelry, even Jesus thought it was a beautiful thing when he was showered in an expensive perfume, even when somebody else thought it wasteful.

More power to ya buddy, and may God bless you and yours.

 

[Strangelove]

If you're not meeting your partners needs by speaking in their native tongue, then all the rest is hard work and to say that it's wrong, or it's not romantic to give a gift, or do something to put a smile on your spouses face is wrong.

If I could speak my wifes native tongue (Vietnamese) I would definately make husband of the year.

 

[handy]

lamplady,

Forgive me, this thread is long and I've had a busy week so maybe I've missed something in my read through...

You seem to be struggling with the concept that gay love is wrong because the Bible condemns gay sex. So, if gay love is "real" and since love leads to sex, how can God condemn gay sex? Or, maybe, since God clearly condemns gay sex, perhaps gay love isn't real?

Hopefully, that is the gist of your query here, because it's what I'm going to address. (Now watch me be totally off! ;))

I don't think there is anything sinful about gay love, and by gay love I do mean love experienced by one gay person to another of the same sex. Just as I don't think there is necessarily anything sinful about hetero love for a person of the opposite sex that one is not married to.

I am purposely excluding from my response here the kind of love that we have for good friends, family members yadda yadda. I am speaking only of the kind of love that is the basis for marriage or long term commitments.

I can honestly say that I experienced this kind of love with three guys. One most likely would have wound up my husband except that life took us 2000 miles away from each other and the relationship didn't survive the distance. I'll call him "Tom". The other, "Harry", we were engaged for awhile, but there were issues and we broke up. The third is my beloved Steve.

For "Tom" and "Harry", my love for them was completely real. 'Smatter of fact, as much as I love Steve, I still have a very warm place in my heart for "Tom". My love for "Harry" the year we were together, was also very real. However, as has been mentioned before, sex was out of the question with either of these guys because I wasn't married to either of them. In the situation I was in with both of these guys, as well as one other guy that I was seriously attracted to, but in an unrequited way, I faced temptations that are common to all of us, straight or gay, the temptation to allow lust to enter into my heart and cause me to think impure thoughts being a biggie, but also the temptation to dream much more into the relationship that was appropriate for what we had at the time, which is also a common temptation.

You brought up a good point, the hetero at least is able to "look forward" to marriage, whereas the gay cannot. And, that is a very valid issue to address, an issue without an easy answer, especially since we really should control our thoughts and emotions about another person and not "go there" with someone we have no intention of marrying. (Easier said than done, and I won't pretend that I was successful in remaining pure in this regard.)

However, Christ-empowered gave us insight as to what God's answer can be, and this is something that can only come from God...the ability to be gay and yet, through Christ be able to form a loving relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

This was certainly the testimony of one of my gay friends who has always identified himself as a Christian first, but also gay. However, through much prayer and obedience to God, God brought a woman into his life and they are married, have been for over 20 years now and have two girls. His sexual orientation is something that he must take to the cross daily as the case may be, but nonetheless, his love for his wife is just as "real" as his love for the first guy that he was attracted to.

Another avenue that God can give homosexuals is celibacy. As someone who didn't marry for years, believe me, celibacy isn't easy, but God enabled me to be celibate, even when I was with "Tom" and "Harry", and He can enable a homosexual who is committed to obeying His commandments to be celibate as well.

During my years as a lonely celibate, I had many dreams about what married life would bring me, dreams that all my desires would be fulfilled once I was a wife and mom. Well, life just isn't like that now is it? Not that I'm complaining, I have a great marriage to a great guy, but marriage didn't fulfill all my desires.

And, this is something that the Christian who struggles with homosexuality must come to terms with as well...that it's normal to believe "if only God would allow me to be with him/her then I my happiness will be complete". Normal, but not realistic. Marriage is a struggle. While the love is real, the issues are just as real. If they weren't there wouldn't be as high a divorce rate. It would be easy for a homosexual to try to cast God as a bad guy who won't allow one's heart's desires, but it's best to keep in mind that not all of our desires are realistic or attainable in any case.

I feel for the homosexual who is committed to obey God in his/her sexuality, because once one is in love, it is really hard to remain celibate and keep the relationship. So, for a homosexual who loves another of the same sex, the situation is very tough, and most often leads to facing giving up the relationship, or falling into sin.

However, we must guard against the idea (most likely a lie of the enemy's) that God isn't aware of the special needs and issues a homosexual who is committed to Him faces. First and foremost, nobody is going to love that person more than God Himself and God, via the new life He gives all of us in Christ, can and does fulfill His promise Romans 8:28 to the gay causing all things, (even same sex sexual temptations) to work to the good of one called according to His purposes.

How He works all this out is a varied as the individuals that face the issues, but I know that He does indeed work these things out, even for gays and in ways that even the gay person winds up with joy and peace in their life.

 

[Danus]

Is "Gay" love real? What kind of question is that? How can we ask that question without first asking if any "Love" is real as expressed by man? I'd say man has little idea what love is to begin with. If we had an idea we'd hardly be in the condition we are in now.

I don't think anyone can truly say they love anyone without first experiencing the love of God to know the difference between professing love for another person vs the love of chocolate ice cream.

It's interesting to me how we mix the idea of love and sex in the world view today, but I suppose I'm not surprised. I'm sure we've all been guilty of that, but if not then congratulations. If so, then it's really a matter of sexual preference, which, in and of itself, could hardly be what love is about to being with.

That said; sex should be an expression of romantic love, and that is best expressed between a man and a woman as God would have it, since from such an expression life may be created. There is NO other union that could physically fit to create the intended end result and that of a family. The bible is pretty clear on this, and we don't have to look far to agree that it makes the most logical sense.

For those attracted to the same sex, may God bless you in such a struggle. It's sad to think that anyone would miss-out on beautiful expression as intended, but even heterosexuals are guilty of mistreating this act, and in that are no less culpable in their sin.

We try to normalize and justify our sinfulness with these arguments. The bible is not hard to understand in regards to this matter yet we don't seem to like it....tough.

 

[jasoncran]

not to offend nor incite lance.

this is my two cents on how the the devil decieves.
gay love is like a poison given from the devil. it tastes the same as normal god designed love. smells the same and so on.

but sooner or later it will cause some problems, albeit it can be in the natural but utilamately will cause that person to enter into hell.

 

[handy]

not to offend nor incite lance.

this is my two cents on how the the devil decieves.
gay love is like a poison given from the devil. it tastes the same as normal god designed love. smells the same and so on.

but sooner or later it will cause some problems, albeit it can be in the natural but utilamately will cause that person to enter into hell.

I don't disagree, but I don't think that this means that it is any less real. Sin has tainted all the kinds of love that we humans can experience. What to do about it is the question.

For the Christian, there is only one thing we can do, experience love, but in obedience to God. God doesn't forbid love in any form, at least not that I can see. But, God does expect us to hold our thoughts captive, to not lust after the one we love and to keep our sexual activity within husband/wife relationships. This is true for the homosexual as much as it is for the heterosexual.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't disagree, but I don't think that this means that it is any less real. Sin has tainted all the kinds of love that we humans can experience. What to do about it is the question.

For the Christian, there is only one thing we can do, experience love, but in obedience to God. God doesn't forbid love in any form, at least not that I can see. But, God does expect us to hold our thoughts captive, to not lust after the one we love and to keep our sexual activity within husband/wife relationships. This is true for the homosexual as much as it is for the heterosexual.

but he does deliever those that were in that sin from it completely.

if our thoughts are sinful as in male attraction. ie if i were to fall in love with a men agians , its kinda hard to just not think, want to be with him. I would have to deny that and ask the lord take it from me.

 

[lamplady]

lamplady,

Forgive me, this thread is long and I've had a busy week so maybe I've missed something in my read through...

You seem to be struggling with the concept that gay love is wrong because the Bible condemns gay sex. So, if gay love is "real" and since love leads to sex, how can God condemn gay sex? Or, maybe, since God clearly condemns gay sex, perhaps gay love isn't real?

You got it mostly right except I wasn't struggling with the concept of if gay love is wrong; I asked the question because I didn't know the answer so I was wondering.

I don't think there is anything sinful about gay love, and by gay love I do mean love experienced by one gay person to another of the same sex. Just as I don't think there is necessarily anything sinful about hetero love for a person of the opposite sex that one is not married to.

You brought up a good point, the hetero at least is able to "look forward" to marriage, whereas the gay cannot. And, that is a very valid issue to address, an issue without an easy answer, especially since we really should control our thoughts and emotions about another person and not "go there" with someone we have no intention of marrying. (Easier said than done, and I won't pretend that I was successful in remaining pure in this regard.)

However, Christ-empowered gave us insight as to what God's answer can be, and this is something that can only come from God...the ability to be gay and yet, through Christ be able to form a loving relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

This was certainly the testimony of one of my gay friends who has always identified himself as a Christian first, but also gay. However, through much prayer and obedience to God, God brought a woman into his life and they are married, have been for over 20 years now and have two girls. His sexual orientation is something that he must take to the cross daily as the case may be, but nonetheless, his love for his wife is just as "real" as his love for the first guy that he was attracted to.

So when someone like lance said he prayed for seventeen years to take the attraction of men away from him and it didn't happen - he was lying?
Maybe though it's like the answer I gave him he should accept his state ...

Another avenue that God can give homosexuals is celibacy. As someone who didn't marry for years, believe me, celibacy isn't easy, but God enabled me to be celibate, even when I was with "Tom" and "Harry", and He can enable a homosexual who is committed to obeying His commandments to be celibate as well.

And, this is something that the Christian who struggles with homosexuality must come to terms with as well...that it's normal to believe "if only God would allow me to be with him/her then I my happiness will be complete". Normal, but not realistic. Marriage is a struggle. While the love is real, the issues are just as real. If they weren't there wouldn't be as high a divorce rate. The divorce rate is high because some people are too dumb and divorce for stupid reasons that could easily be overcome if they cared about marriage at all but that's another subject ... lol ... It would be easy for a homosexual to try to cast God as a bad guy who won't allow one's heart's desires, but it's best to keep in mind that not all of our desires are realistic or attainable in any case.

However, we must guard against the idea (most likely a lie of the enemy's) that God isn't aware of the special needs and issues a homosexual who is committed to Him faces. First and foremost, nobody is going to love that person more than God Himself and God, via the new life He gives all of us in Christ, can and does fulfill His promise Romans 8:28 to the gay causing all things, (even same sex sexual temptations) to work to the good of one called according to His purposes.

I love that

How He works all this out is a varied as the individuals that face the issues, but I know that He does indeed work these things out, even for gays and in ways that even the gay person winds up with joy and peace in their life.

Thank you for your comprehensive answer - very good insight ... ...

 

[handy]

So when someone like lance said he prayed for seventeen years to take the attraction of men away from him and it didn't happen - he was lying?
Maybe though it's like the answer I gave him he should accept his state ...

No, I don't think Lance was lying. And, I know that Lance will believe me when I say that this is the only reference I'm making about him in this post. ;)

As far as a homosexual accepting their state, naturally it is something that will be with them, this they need to accept.

But, not that they then need to accept either life-long celibacy or going against God. I don't believe anyone needs to accept that choice.

How God works in the heart of another individual is something that no one else really is privvy to. I do know that all can rely upon His grace in any given situation, whether or not one does is an individual call as well.

It would be easy for a homosexual attracted or in love with someone of the same sex, pray that God would take that love away and if the love or attraction remains, then believe that God didn't answer the prayer.

But, as a long-term single myself, I can attest that prayers to not be attracted to someone or to fall out of love with someone, are not always the kind of prayers that are easily answered. Can God change the desires of one's heart? Yes. He can, but it takes a lot of co-operation from the individual and that's not always forthcoming either. Love is one of the strongest emotions we face, and it's not easily turned off.

Over time though, if one is really committed to following God, the desires of the heart can truly change. I found this to be true several times with me, and it was true with the friend I referenced above as well as other friends that I've been close enough too to know of their inner struggles. Time is a key though. It can take years. My gay friend who married a woman didn't meet her until he was 26, and even then it was two more years before they had worked through things enough to marry.

I said before that I don't think anyone need accept the choice of life-long celibacy or sinning against God. However, if God does indeed change the desires of the heart, then accepting the choice of celibacy then becomes much easier, if that is how the heart was changed.

From what I know personally, and from what I've read in various testimonies though, for those who struggle with homosexuality, generally the desire of the heart changes towards meeting a person of the opposite sex with whom one can have the kind of relationship that God Himself determined we needed back in the Garden before the Fall.

but he does deliever those that were in that sin from it completely.

if our thoughts are sinful as in male attraction. ie if i were to fall in love with a men agians , its kinda hard to just not think, want to be with him. I would have to deny that and ask the lord take it from me.

We all have things that we have to deny and ask the Lord to take from us...and all of us have varying degrees of success as to how well we give it up. There is a fine line in our thought processes where we walk between temptation and sin in thought. Taking up crosses daily isn't uncommon for all Christians. I can believe that for the Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction, Jesus fully understands, far more profoundly than anyone, how hard it is to walk that line.

 

[lamplady]

Can God change the desires of one's heart? Yes. He can, but it takes a lot of co-operation from the individual and that's not always forthcoming either. Love is one of the strongest emotions we face, and it's not easily turned off.

Over time though, if one is really committed to following God, the desires of the heart can truly change.


I love your thoughts and it's so true. Yes there's attraction and then there's love. I should imagine if it reaches the love stage things could get harder - but yes nothing is beyond the control of our God :yes ...

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Can God change the desires of one's heart? Yes. He can, but it takes a lot of co-operation from the individual and that's not always forthcoming either. Love is one of the strongest emotions we face, and it's not easily turned off.

Over time though, if one is really committed to following God, the desires of the heart can truly change.


I love your thoughts and it's so true. Yes there's attraction and then there's love. I should imagine if it reaches the love stage things could get harder - but yes nothing is beyond the control of our God :yes ...

I Corinthians XIII:XIII (Concordant Literal New Testament)
Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.