Is God a God of justice?

[Classik]

1. Most people think it is unfair of God to have hardened the heart of Pharoah. Pharoah couldn't let the children of Israel go. As a result of this Pharoah couldn't liberate them. Pharoah would have let them go (seeing all the plagues) had God not hardened his heart, people would say.
--

2. God also asked His people to annihilate an entire nation: men, women, children, animals and plants - everything.

3. I have heard some say: It was God's original plan to have Adam and Eve sin. Adam and Eve are not to blame. They had carried out God's plan.
+++
Atheist would tell us ' Your God is a wicked God'. Other people would say, 'It is Unfair of Him'.

Man does not look beyond 'now' and 'today'. God sees beyond today.
--
Protest number 1&2
What if God hadn't hardened the heart of Pharoah?
- What if Pharoah had wiped away the children of Israel?
God probably had looked into the future and had seen Pharoah destroy Israel. This is what I think - Perhaps the reason God had hardened Pharoah's heart (in order that He might successfully eliminate him). And which heart, seeing all these plagues, would not let the people go?

Protest 2
If a group ( group A) of people have sworn with their lives to trouble and eliminate another group (group B ), and the leader of group B knows about this plan and instructs group B to eliminate group A, and group B does, how would you judge the action of the leader of group B?
--
Protest 3
God was away that Adam and Eve would sin. He was away Lucifer would sin too. He was not and is not responsible for their sin. He had given them the ability to make decisions. Adam and Eve chose the wrong decision even when they knew it was the wrong one.
--
Then why would God allow both options. It is simple: A guitar and a plectrum, and a cello and a bow, a drum set and the drum sticks. Does a plectrum go with a cello, or do you give a drummer a plectrum in place of sticks. Does a guitarist need some sticks? :guitar

HE IS A JUST GOD!!!
*Instructions
*Obedience
*Disobedience
*Punishment

Does anyone have anything to add?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is just...supremely just...the very essence of justice. But more than that he is merciful. People confuse the exercise of God's greater attribute, mercy, as injustice.

 

[reba]

God can only be GODLY

 

[Pard]

Justice means "that which is right".

To know what it means to be a "just God" we must first understand sin. Sin is lawless and it insults God's very nature. The penalty for sin is death.

Now some people will say that God is not just because he allows people to "get off" of their sentence. This is wrong. Jesus is not equal to someone in our own penal system just "getting off". God realized that someone had to pay for our sins and so He sent a perfectly and sinless being (His Son) to bear that weight for us if we so choose to accept His offer. This is not "injustice" for the Law is still being satisfied.

Others will say God is not just because of the "atrocities" that were committed by Him and His people in the Old Testament. This is also wrong. Romans 1 makes it very clear that every man knows the Law. It is the responsibility of man to control his own sinful nature. God merely brings what those people sowed.

 

[jasoncran]

pard is close to how say that jesus is the high priest. first off christ came to do a work and his work isnt finished. he has one last thing to do. judge the earth in the day of the lord.

 

[Aardverk]

Justice means "that which is right".

Others will say God is not just because of the "atrocities" that were committed by Him and His people in the Old Testament. This is also wrong. Romans 1 makes it very clear that every man knows the Law. It is the responsibility of man to control his own sinful nature. God merely brings what those people sowed.

That is certainly one of the things that I could never understand when I was a Christian. If we consider the OT actions of God and judge him by today's standards - as if he were a man, then no one would say that he was 'just'. If we allow that he is big and all-powerful and can do whatever he wants then I suppose we have to say that his actions were 'just' simply because there is nothing we can do about it - he was judge, jury and executioner - with no appeals court.

To say that 'every man knows the law and it is his responsibility to control his own nature' completely disregards the children, the servants and the townsfolk of the 'sinner' who also got punished. What did they do wrong? Why was it 'just' to kill them or make them barren etc? Come to that, why was it 'just' to flood the world and kill virtually everyone for the sins of the few?

Moving to the NT, is it fair to deliberately 'set father against son, brother against sister' etc for doing nothing wrong? I struggle to see how that is 'just'. The main claim of Christianity is that God loves us but I see no evidence of that by today's standards. I see people loving God but not the other way around. I hesitate to cite the obvious diseases etc but that is the obvious question.

On balance, I can't imagine any appeals court agreeing that God was justified in his actions. Can anyone?

I do realize that it was probably a leading question so I await the answer with interest.

 

[Hitch]

On balance, I can't imagine any appeals court agreeing that God was justified in his actions. Can anyone?


Since when does God need your approval?

 

[reba]

God is only Godly. What ever He does how ever He does it or what ever He does not do He can be nothing but Godly.

He alone is the Sovereign! He is the King of Kings. If folks cant grasp that so be it.

 

[Free]

That is certainly one of the things that I could never understand when I was a Christian. If we consider the OT actions of God and judge him by today's standards - as if he were a man, then no one would say that he was 'just'. If we allow that he is big and all-powerful and can do whatever he wants then I suppose we have to say that his actions were 'just' simply because there is nothing we can do about it - he was judge, jury and executioner - with no appeals court.

To say that 'every man knows the law and it is his responsibility to control his own nature' completely disregards the children, the servants and the townsfolk of the 'sinner' who also got punished. What did they do wrong? Why was it 'just' to kill them or make them barren etc? Come to that, why was it 'just' to flood the world and kill virtually everyone for the sins of the few?

Moving to the NT, is it fair to deliberately 'set father against son, brother against sister' etc for doing nothing wrong? I struggle to see how that is 'just'. The main claim of Christianity is that God loves us but I see no evidence of that by today's standards. I see people loving God but not the other way around. I hesitate to cite the obvious diseases etc but that is the obvious question.

On balance, I can't imagine any appeals court agreeing that God was justified in his actions. Can anyone?

I do realize that it was probably a leading question so I await the answer with interest.

The story and it's issues are far more complex than this and judging God by our standards is certainly not what should be done. God certainly is just and loving from the beginning of the story in Genesis to the end in Revelation.

 

[GojuBrian]

My kids think I'm unfair, but they don't know what I know.

 

[Brokenhearted]

I think what you are really asking is 'does God avenge us?"

Justice is revenge, dressed up and glorified. The state avenged those who attack it, whether they are good or evil, doesn't matter. Revenge is relative to the victim, justice is all relative to the victim.

What do you care, if someone you don't know, did something, to someone you don't know? Is it your place to do them justice? In fact, would YOU be sinning, against your victim, if you were to do justice, for another victim? I'm sure many judges wonder those things. You are injuring someone, on behalf, of someone else.

So you are asking God, to do grave injury, to someone, who may have never done anything to God personally. He may have done something that made God love them, more than the person they injured.

that's what Christianity is all about. It's not what you do, it's who you know. If you are friends with God, he really wants you to be a good person, and be nice to people, but secretly he doesn't really care that much about the heathen and unbelievers.

 

[WIP]

The main claim of Christianity is that God loves us but I see no evidence of that by today's standards.

It would appear that we are judging God by our standards. What right do we have?

 

[reba]

As you well know WIP :yes we don't have the right to judge the potter.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Christ_empowered]

God is just and merciful. I used to think, as a non-believer, that there was no reconciling the OT and NT God. The first seemed so harsh and wrathful, the second so kind and loving. Then I realized: its God. His justice can't be separated from his mercy. At Christian Rehab, they always said that The Cross was a perfect example of God's mercy and God's justice coming together in the most important day in history.

Later on, I realized that His ways are higher than our ways and, as other posters have pointed out, He doesn't answer to us. Further examination shows the OT shows restoration and mercy in the OT (Moses made a leader after killing an Egyptian; Jonah's long strange trip) and a surprising amount of frightening judgment in the NT (Ananias and Sapphira; Jesus' many warnings about Hell, with "weeping and gnashing of teeth"), so there really is a good bit of consistency. I just think you might have to be a believer to see it.

 

[Aardverk]

Given the question, an answer can only be given by today's standards or a 'cop out' answer of some sort. I tried to answer it from two points of view and clarified when I was considering the question by today's standards. I also made it clear that I was talking about what was 'just', deliberately typed in inverted commas, to make it distinct from 'justice' which can be misinterpreted several ways.

I did also give a 'cop out' answer, as have several people above. The following was probably the most interesting.[/FONT]

I think what you are really asking is 'does God avenge us?"

No, I was talking about what was 'just' as judged by today's standards. Whilst there are clearly different standards between us, we generally agree that it is not 'just' to punish the children of a miscreant.

Justice is revenge, dressed up and glorified.

I do hope you are wrong about that. I see justice as a far more important part of our lives. It may be interesting to ask a judge what he believes 'justice' means!

What do you care, if someone you don't know, did something, to someone you don't know? Is it your place to do them justice?

I care! I really, really care if I see injustice being done to some poor helpless person. I frequently cry at the news of yet another tragedy where innocent victims are abused or killed. I would hope that we all do that even if you only do it when you are alone where no one can see you cry.

Is it my place to do them justice? An interesting question. Would I be the man in the street who stepped in to help a victim? I hope I would.

So you are asking God, to do grave injury, to someone, who may have never done anything to God personally. He may have done something that made God love them, more than the person they injured. that's what Christianity is all about. It's not what you do, it's who you know. If you are friends with God, he really wants you to be a good person, and be nice to people, but secretly he doesn't really care that much about the heathen and unbelievers.

To be quite clear, I am not asking God to injure anyone.

This paragraph is very interesting though. It expresses the exact opposite of what I perceive to be 'just' and seems to be saying Christians are OK because they have God on their side and non Christians are not because they don't. "It's not what you do, it's who you know". Wow, I do hope you are wrong about that. It is that attitude that has led to wars and grave injustice over the history of mankind. Fortunately the court system disagrees with you.

"that's what Christianity is all about". Is it really? I suspect some of your friends would disagree with you.

 

[jasoncran]

in theory the courts disagree, but i find me judges kid who is a druggie and so forth and i dont you find justice meted to that kid unless he kills someone.

if a cop wants to ruin his career in the local town, give that boy a ticket and continue to arrest him. i have heard of such things.

 

[Aardverk]

The story and it's issues are far more complex than this and judging God by our standards is certainly not what should be done. God certainly is just and loving from the beginning of the story in Genesis to the end in Revelation.

Yes, I fully agree that it is far more complicated than can be explained in a brief post. I was hoping for something though.

I understand the argument against us judging God - who do we think we are to do that etc but the question has been posed. To answer it we must make a decision - a judgement. Most Christians do judge God and declare their judgement loud and clear. They judge him to be a loving God and presumably they have come to that conclusion by a careful, reasoned process and are not just echoing what they have heard others say?

That was not a judgement that I could readily agree with and I gradually lost my faith. Periodically I come to forums (fora?) like this to learn and see if I can pick up words of wisdom. It has been quite interesting but there seems to be a reluctance to address the difficult issues such as this question raises. Would it not be more appropriate to say that we don't understand why God acted the way he did but we simply trust he had a good reason?

My children think I'm unfair but they don't know what I know.

I understand that illustration but presumably you explain the reasons for your decisions to your children so that they can then recognize that you are 'just' and they can gradually garner wisdom from you. They may still moan but at least they will understand.

That is the process that I have always lacked. I have never had the opportunity of God explaining his actions nor any person explaining to me why they think God's actions were 'just'. Again, that is why I am here, hoping to learn.