Is God finished with Israel?

[seekandlisten]

They were driven out of their land for their disobedience but they will return to their promised land. It speaks of the 144,000 in Rev. is this not the 12 tribes of Israel?

I do not think this 144,000 are in any sense "ethnic Jews". However, I am not prepared to argue the point right now. But, of course, those who hold the position that I hold need, at some point anyway, to offer and defend the view that these 144,000 are not ethnic Jews.

I agree with you in the fact that I don't think the children of Israel are 'ethnic Jews'.

 

[seekandlisten]

If you are going to say God's promise to Israel was broken because of unbelief well I would have to say the 'church' is in trouble.

I dont know if I understand where youre coming from.
Are you saying that God never ended/broke/annulled a covenant He made ?

Depending on what you are getting at here? I don't think God can break a promise plain and simple. Are there covenants made with more than one group? I would have to say yes. I believe God's Plan is to try and save everyone but we will really not fully realize this plan until all has been fulfilled and we are resurrected with Christ.

 

[Cornelius]

Well I see evidence of people being punished for disobedience I have not seen any evidence of God not fulfilling His promises?? If you are going to say God's promise to Israel was broken because of unbelief well I would have to say the 'church' is in trouble.

I hope you can see through the scripture I provided that its not me who said that, but God tells us they could not inherit His promise through unbelief. Nothing God could have done about it.

Secondly I agree with you about the 'church" being in trouble , because of the same reason. That too is Scriptural. We are repeating the same mistakes they made and we too would be prevented through unbelief . VERY few believe the promises that God gave to us.

Here is the problem. We (Like Israel) believe IN God,............but we do not BELIEVE God.

 

[seekandlisten]

Well I see evidence of people being punished for disobedience I have not seen any evidence of God not fulfilling His promises?? If you are going to say God's promise to Israel was broken because of unbelief well I would have to say the 'church' is in trouble.

I hope you can see through the scripture I provided that its not me who said that, but God tells us they could not inherit His promise through unbelief. Nothing God could have done about it.

Secondly I agree with you about the 'church" being in trouble , because of the same reason. That too is Scriptural. We are repeating the same mistakes they made and we too would be prevented through unbelief . VERY few believe the promises that God gave to us.

Here is the problem. We (Like Israel) believe IN God,............but we do not BELIEVE God.

Interesting point you raise here.

 

[Cornelius]

The reason why today we have a different church regarding the power aspect of the Gospel, is that we have stopped believing in the promises (Promise Land is just that ! a type for the promises of God) Those who do not believe in the the promises cannot enter.

If we read Hebrews, God calls our "Promise land"= to the REST. He then tells us that we (like Israel) cannot enter that rest, if we suffer from the same sin (unbelief) The REST comes when we KNOW the promise is true. Then we rest in that knowledge. No faith= no rest= no entrance into the promise.

 

[destiny]

25- For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11)

 

[Cornelius]

Jesus teaches us this principle in the parable of the sower. The Sower sows the seed (Word of God) in our hearts. Some do not believe it and it just dies. Others accept it gladly, but then just like Israel we get to go into the wilderness with that seed to be tested. Then some fall in the desert , because the Seed (Word) gets taken from them through the trial in the "desert" This produces no crop and causes failure.

That is why, when we realize this principle, we can "count it all joy " when we are tested via all kinds of temptations. (That is the desert! ) and when our faith, which is more precious than gold , has withstood the test, we receive the manifestation of what we have believed for. In THIS life.

 

[Cornelius]

25- For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11)

Scriptures like this one is only part of the puzzle and should be read with the full revelation of the whole Bible, before we come to a conclusion that this particular verse is the total revelation.Its not the full revelation.

It does say that the blindness will be removed. But if we want to know from whom, we have to read the rest of the Bible.

 

[destiny]

When Jesus Christ returns at the end of this age, where will the location of His return be and at that moment what will He accomplish for whom?

 

[seekandlisten]

Cornelius,
What are your thoughts on these passages?

"(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

"(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

These may not apply specifically to 'Israel' but are relevent to the direction we take.

 

[Relic]

When Jesus Christ returns at the end of this age, where will the location of His return be and at that moment what will He accomplish for whom?

Exactly! :yes

.

 

[seekandlisten]

When Jesus Christ returns at the end of this age, where will the location of His return be and at that moment what will He accomplish for whom?

Exactly! :yes

.

Did I miss something here?? I see a question that can't be answered and an agreement? Sorry, confused.

 

[Cornelius]

When Jesus Christ returns at the end of this age, where will the location of His return be and at that moment what will He accomplish for whom?

The Mount of Olives has always been the place where false religions and altars went up. Even today if you go there, there is a Church of All Nations,(One religion for all). We are the body of Christ and we who are the end of the age can be called the "feet" if we look back in time towards Jesus and the Bible tells us He is the HEAD. Everything has been placed under the "feet" (us) So in the end times, when Jesus manifests in His body (Rev 12, John 16) then the "feet" will touch down on this "mountain" , meaning we will split the kingdom of false religion.

Why does God want division in that kingdom?

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

God is going to split the worldly false church with the truth, which will come through the "feet" of His Body of Christ, during the time of the end, when He comes in His body.

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius,
What are your thoughts on these passages?

"(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

"(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

These may not apply specifically to 'Israel' but are relevent to the direction we take.

If you open a thread in Apologetics, then we can discuss anything you want to talk about I was already thinking that I might be derailing this thread and I do not want to do that.


C

 

[seekandlisten]

Cornelius,
What are your thoughts on these passages?

"(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

"(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

These may not apply specifically to 'Israel' but are relevent to the direction we take.

If you open a thread in Apologetics, then we can discuss anything you want to talk about I was already thinking that I might be derailing this thread and I do not want to do that.


C

Fair enough. Thanks for posting about that church at the Mount of Olives, it intrigues me a bit.

 

[Cornelius]

Fair enough. Thanks for posting about that church at the Mount of Olives, it intrigues me a bit.

Much of the prophecies are written in pictures. The Bible calls them "types and shadows" It just means that we have to not always look at the letters, but we have to learn how the pictures work. Its a puzzle and God hides things . He loves hiding things and we, the kings in the Kingdom ,must find the clues and figure it out, by praying for the truth (knock , seek, ask )

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[shad]

I believe that the people of Israel, while they might have been the chosen nation before the cross, I don't think so now. As it says in the beginning of 1 Peter, we are a royal priesthood, a holy nation with an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. The cross is for Jews and Gentiles. We are all one and the same now.

Amen, Nick.

 

[Drew]

25- For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11)

I am not sure what your point is. This text says that God has hardened (most) Jews as part of his redemptive plan. Fine - I would not argue with that.

But the fact that this is so in no way implies that God has promises "still on the table" for ethnic Jews.

 

[veteran]

People get very heated when this topic gets discussed, but the Bible is clear that the covenant with the Jews came to an end .

It's because of those who fail to recognize God's promises to Israel did not stop to His people Israel, mainly because some are wrongly taught to think only non-believing Jews are Israel after Christ's death on the cross.

But the good news for them is that now they can still get saved in the same way that any non-Jew gets saved. By faith in the Son of God. There is simply no other way.A remnant of them will be saved , but not all of them.

That's also how the Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles believed, on the Promise God first gave through Abraham, which was about the Promise of The Saviour by Faith. Many in OT times simply didn't get to see it manifested in their day, unless Christ showed them. And at the end of John 8, Christ revealed that Abraham saw His day, and was glad. That's proof of The Salvation Promise having existed since Abraham's day. So what if many of Israel then refused to believe, that Promise by Faith never stopped, not for a moment. Nor was that Promise part of the Old Covenant, but the Old Covenant and law was to point to it. All that was happenning long before The Gospel ever went to the Gentiles through Apostles like Paul.

 

[destiny]

When Jesus Christ returns at the end of this age, where will the location of His return be and at that moment what will He accomplish for whom?

The Mount of Olives has always been the place where false religions and altars went up. Even today if you go there, there is a Church of All Nations,(One religion for all). We are the body of Christ and we who are the end of the age can be called the "feet" if we look back in time towards Jesus and the Bible tells us He is the HEAD. Everything has been placed under the "feet" (us) So in the end times, when Jesus manifests in His body (Rev 12, John 16) then the "feet" will touch down on this "mountain" , meaning we will split the kingdom of false religion.

Why does God want division in that kingdom?

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

God is going to split the worldly false church with the truth, which will come through the "feet" of His Body of Christ, during the time of the end, when He comes in His body.

Mount of Olives:
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.â€
I see way too much involvement and prophecy between God and Israel in the last days to ignore it. I will just keep my eye on the things that are unfolding and be satisfied that it will all be revealed in time.