Is God finished with Israel?

[mondar]

i think he was from that tribe in the flesh and the lord was saving the jews along With the gentile.

If Paul was from that tribe in the flesh, then is he not referring to Israel in the flesh? Is that not the primary meaning of the term "Israel?"

Concerning that the Lord saves Jews and Gentiles, I dont see that as the question. Who is disputing that question? Does this question assume that I must be an Israelite to be saved? And where would a concept like that be found in the scriptures?

then using you reasoning we should make up a tribe and say the we are of the jews. i think that he was showing the gentiles that are saved that lord isnt partial in removing isreal aside and grafting one then in.that if we think are all that and a bag of chips that we earned our salvation by our holiness or birth linageage we are wrong. it was by grace that we are saved.

Somehow, your missing what I am saying. I dont see that I am saying that "we should make up a tribe and say that we are of the Jews." That is close, but not quite what I am saying. I am simply saying that we need not destroy the meaning of the term Israel as a genetic term when we look at ourselves as included in Israel. This would mean that Israel does have a future and that God is not finished with genetic Israel. Also, I dont see that we have to look at Israel as a non-Genetic term.

If I can take an illustration from the post above. If I am a multi-trillionaire and I promise to give every genetic American a new TV. Then I begin also giving TVs to all naturalized citizens who came long after that promise, does that mean that I don't have to give the native born American a TV? Are they no longer Americans?

Is this not the matter Paul discusses in Romans 11:1-2,11?
Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Rom 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel will become Jealous and return to God. But they will not return, until God circumcises their hearts. It is promised.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And Jehovah thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of Jehovah, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

 

[glorydaz]

IS ISRAEL A NATION?
36 If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

HAS ISRAEL CEASED TO EXIST?
37 Thus saith Jehovah: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Jehovah.

I am especially interested in an interpretation of the words in red in verses 36 and 37. Verse 37... is it not saying that God will never cast off the seed of Israel? Is this not the same Israel that verse 36 calls Israel a nation?

The seed of Israel shall never cease from being a nation...now it's the Israel of God...the holy nation.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

When Israel according to the flesh is no longer a nation the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Has God cast off Israel? No, there is a remnant left..(Rom. 11)...The believing remnant.

The others cast themselves off by their unbelief.

 

[glorydaz]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:
More questions....
In Romans 1:11 it implies that God did not cast off his people. Who is he talking about? I notice his extreme answer in the optative mood "God forbid." Paul says he is an "Israelite." Then he goes on to describe what he means by the term "Israelite." He says he is from the "seed of Abraham" and the "tribe of Benjamin."

So then, if we saved Gentiles are "spiritual Israel" should we not be able also to tell everyone what tribe we are from also? Can anyone from Spiritual Israel tell me what tribe they are from? If not, why not? Who is Paul talking about here that will never be "cast off?"

We're children of Abraham by faith.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

We don't have a "tribe". That would be after the flesh...we're "adopted"...grafted on.
Israel after the flesh sought not by faith. They stumbled on the "rock of offense" (Jesus), so only the believing remnant shall be saved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[mondar]

The seed of Israel shall never cease from being a nation...now it's the Israel of God...the holy nation.

And maybe tomorrow God will again change his fickle mind on how he wants to define Israel?

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

So when the text says "an holy nation" how does that mean "Israel had no future?" This is comparing apples and oranges.

When Israel according to the flesh is no longer a nation the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Man is this proof text out of context.
Notice the illustration before verse 8.
Rom 9:7 neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So then Isaac was not a genetic child of Abraham?

Has God cast off Israel? No, there is a remnant left..(Rom. 11)...The believing remnant.

The others cast themselves off by their unbelief.

Temporarily this is true. The unbelief of Israel means Israel has been partially and temporarily rejected.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
The fullness of Israel is the time when Israel will become a believing nation and will inherit her promises. Until this fullness Israel will be partially and temporarily rejected because of her unbelief.

Of course in missing that Israel has a future, you miss that there is also more for Gentiles. These texts are saying that if Israel's stumbling brings God's riches of Grace to Gentiles, how much more will Israels restoration bring God's riches of Grace to Gentiles.

Glorydaz, things are getting kind of old and stale from my point of view. When I begin a rebuttal and demonstrate your reading things out of context, you merely jump to a different passage. Do you think that the more verses you can quote out of context the better your argument will be? That gets old from my point of view.

 

[glorydaz]

If you can't handle being set straight then you can simply ignore my posts.

Any future promises are for the Israel of God.
God is not fickle...this has always been His plan.
The verses I've provided should help you to see that, but you're obviously not open to learning.

 

[jasoncran]

Is this not the matter Paul discusses in Romans 11:1-2,11?
Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Rom 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel will become Jealous and return to God. But they will not return, until God circumcises their hearts. It is promised.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And Jehovah thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of Jehovah, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.[/quote]
then we are on the same page, the lord will intend prokove the jews with jealousy to return to him.

 

[glorydaz]

Is this not the matter Paul discusses in Romans 11:1-2,11?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Rom 11:11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel will become Jealous and return to God. But they will not return, until God circumcises their hearts. It is promised.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And Jehovah thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of Jehovah, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

then we are on the same page, the lord will intend prokove the jews with jealousy to return to him.

The jews were provoked to jealousy when the gentiles started flocking in droves to their Messiah.
Even some of the early believers (Peter comes to mind) wanted the gentiles to have to be circumcised and obey some of the other long-held traditions.

They've been provoked, now they only need to believe and come with a circumcised heart. That's their only hope of receiving the promises. May a great number enter into the Israel of God.