Is God immutable?

[JM]

Instances of prophectic [quantity] time or time as seen by God as future.

“And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things therein, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should BE TIME NO LONGER:†(Rev. 10:6, KJV)

Time must exist for it to be no longer.
"Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:"
(Genesis 41:29 KJV)

"And there shall arise after them seven years of famine; and all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine shall consume the land;"
(Genesis 41:30 KJV)

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
(Daniel 9:24 KJV)

Daniel’s Sevenity weeks speak of a future week.
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
(2 Peter 3:8 KJV)

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
(Revelation 20:4 KJV)

A future period is known to exist by God, it were not known by God what the Bible tells us about the future cannot be realible. That's why open theism is false and heretical.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33

The Biblical idea of God's foreknowledge is the same as His determinate counsel, they can’t be separated. (Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2) When someone is elected by God it’s based upon the will of God, Thayer offers “pre-arranged†as one possible alternative for the Greek.

I like the way the Westminster Shorter Catechism states it:
Question 11. What are God’s works of providence?
Answer. God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures, and all their actions.

God is in control of every action and deed, “…and upholding all things by the word of his power…†nothing and no one is exempt, “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.†God is before time.
For God, “there is no distinctions of time†[Tertullian, Against Marcion]. Everything that exists or existed or will exist God is seen all at the same time. Like the way we view a time line with a beginning and end, God sees everything in this way, without exception.

Augustine wrote: “For what is foreknowledge if not knowledge of future events? But can anything be future to God, who surpasses all time? For if God’s knowledge includes these very things themselves, they are not future to him but present; and for this reason we should no longer speak of God’s foreknowledge but simply of God’s knowledge.†Agreeing with Augustine, Gregory the Great wrote: “Whatever is past and future to us is immediately present in his sight.â€Â

We as finite man see time as moving forward, but for God it’s always present. It’s a human idea to think that God is affected by time, it’s also a human idea to separate God’s omniscience from His all knowing foreknowledge and mix it with humanity’s nostalgic thinking. The Scriptures fully teach the omniscience of God as antecede to creation. [http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_04.htm]Without understanding this, without fully recognising God’s foreknowledge as being truly preceding creation we cannot come to terms with divine omniscience. I found in the works of Tertullian [Against Marcion] that attempts to harmonize human freewill with God’s omniscience, the tendency is to over emphasize human freewill above God’s omniscience. For God to foreknow anything, man’s will for example, He would have to know before the will is made because God is omniscient. For man to be created with a will, God would have to know what will to give man, this is also based on His omniscience. God’s wisdom doesn’t depend on human will, human will depends upon God’s infinite wisdom.

Augustine wrote, “If foreknowledge does not foreknow things that are certain to happen, it is nothing at all.â€Â

In essences, since God foreknows the will of man [fallen and dead in sin, or absolutely free to choose] Gods foreknowledge determines what that will it is going to be. The will comes into being because God has foreknown it. Our wills are therefore not limited but have as much power as God wants us to have, and have with certainty. Whatever the will does, it does as a matter of foreknowledge. Since time doesn’t exist for God, foreknowledge then becomes [strictly speaking], knowledge for God knows before, during and after it happens…just as we view a time line.


~JM~

 

[Drew]

A future period is known to exist by God, it were not known by God what the Bible tells us about the future cannot be realible. That's why open theism is false and heretical.

I suspect that no one disagrees that God knows some things about "the future". The texts that JM has provided amply testify to this. There is simply no justification for jumping from various specific predictions about what God knows will happen (e.g. 7 years of famine) to a general sweeping conclusion that God knows everything as exhaustively settled. Can someone provide either a Biblical or a "logical" justification for this "jump"?

As I have said before, I think that we humans have invented the concept of "the future" as a kind of mental device. We have to have a shorthand way of talking about and thinking about what may happen as time flows. However, I think that a little reflection reveals that we probably accord the "future" more reality than it deserves. A hint about how we may have stumbled can be gleaned from a consideration of "the past". Does the past have the property of existence? I would say "no", or at least that it does not exist in the sense we think it does in day to day thinking.

I suspect that the reality is that we have a highly impoverished imagination and find it mind-boggling that God might not know everything that will happen and yet still maintain "control". Well, so be it. It is mind-boggling. To me, it speaks to the majestic complexity of God's sovereignty. I am suspicious that we accord exhaustive foreknowledge to God because of our intellectual weakness - our inability to imagine how a partially open future can be reconciled with the notion that God will bring his will to pass. I hope to say more about this in later posts.

I do not see the Scriptures as doing more than pointing out that some events are known by God before they come to pass. Where do the Scriptures say something that can be used to justify the idea that there is a "fixed" future?

 

[unred typo]

Instances of prophectic [quantity] time or time as seen by God as future.

“And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things therein, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should BE TIME NO LONGER:†(Rev. 10:6, KJV)

Time must exist for it to be no longer.

Time is the marking of passing events into regular intervals. The tick of a clock, the revolution of a planet or group of stars, etc. all things used to mark this passing of the present into the past are just measures like length and width are measurements of space. Does ‘length’ have a value or an existence unless we give it one?
Time will be no longer because there won't be anyone keeping records of measured time spans and the effects of aging on our bodies, minds and spirits will be over forever.

Genesis 41:29 , Genesis 41:30 , and Daniel 9:24 all are plans of God that he has decreed will happen. They are not seeing into the distant future and knowing what is happening then. It is no more ‘seeing’ or ‘knowing’ the ‘future’ than when someone plans a wedding or any event. The difference is that God has all power to assure that nothing unexpected can happen to ruin his plan. Years of famine or plenty are merely controlling the weather conditions. Impossible for man but no problem for God.

Daniel’s Sevenity weeks speak of a future week.
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8
…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
(Revelation 20:4 KJV)
A future period is known to exist by God, it were not known by God what the Bible tells us about the future cannot be realible.

A future period of a thousand years of Christ’s reign is planned by God, just like you plan a retirement or a vacation. Your plans may get cancelled but not his. Do you doubt that God can bring his future kingdom into being? Who or what can stop him?

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8

When it says that one day is as a thousand years, it means that God is not bothered by the aging process or the boredom associated with long intervals that we with small minds and finite bodies experience. He’s in no hurry and he can take all the time he wants to do whatever he pleases. We’re not getting any younger, but he’s not getting any older.

For God, “there is no distinctions of time†[Tertullian, Against Marcion]. Everything that exists or existed or will exist God is seen all at the same time. Like the way we view a time line with a beginning and end, God sees everything in this way, without exception.

Augustine wrote: “For what is foreknowledge if not knowledge of future events? But can anything be future to God, who surpasses all time? For if God’s knowledge includes these very things themselves, they are not future to him but present; and for this reason we should no longer speak of God’s foreknowledge but simply of God’s knowledge.†Agreeing with Augustine, Gregory the Great wrote: “Whatever is past and future to us is immediately present in his sight.â€Â

If that were true, there would be no end to Christ’s suffering on the cross. He would continue to suffer, forever suspended in never ending present moments of constant agony. Thankfully, this is simply a figment of dull little minds who can’t see the truth of God’s greatness and power or trust him with their future unless they can pretend he has completely worked out all details to perfection. Nope, the future isn't the present and the past has passed: it is finished.

:fadein:

 

[JM]

Time is the marking of passing events into regular intervals. The tick of a clock, the revolution of a planet or group of stars, etc. all things used to mark this passing of the present into the past are just measures like length and width are measurements of space. Does ‘length’ have a value or an existence unless we give it one? Time will be no longer because there won't be anyone keeping records of measured time spans and the effects of aging on our bodies, minds and spirits will be over forever.

Length like time is a quantity, yes, it has a value.

Genesis 41:29 , Genesis 41:30 , and Daniel 9:24 all are plans of God that he has decreed will happen. They are not seeing into the distant future and knowing what is happening then. It is no more ‘seeing’ or ‘knowing’ the ‘future’ than when someone plans a wedding or any event. The difference is that God has all power to assure that nothing unexpected can happen to ruin his plan. Years of famine or plenty are merely controlling the weather conditions. Impossible for man but no problem for God.

These decrees are arbitrary, illogical and whimsical and like wedding plans, can be destroyed by outside influence. Therefore when the god of open theism makes a decree it’s meaningless.

A future period of a thousand years of Christ’s reign is planned by God, just like you plan a retirement or a vacation. Your plans may get cancelled but not his. Do you doubt that God can bring his future kingdom into being? Who or what can stop him?

If it’s like the way we plan our retirement or vacation, the god of open theism is often overruled and controlled by circumstance. Some god! You’ve created a problem for yourself. The first sentence describes your manlike god as planning a prophetic events that can be cancelled. Then you ask, what I can only assume is a rhetorical question, that seems to strive to prove the opposite point. Which is it? Does you manlike god make plans that depend on man’s reactions or does your manlike god control man’s actions to bring about “it’s†will?

When it says that one day is as a thousand years, it means that God is not bothered by the aging process or the boredom associated with long intervals that we with small minds and finite bodies experience. He’s in no hurry and he can take all the time he wants to do whatever he pleases. We’re not getting any younger, but he’s not getting any older.

This chapter is about God Almighty and His prophectic plan and not, as you suggest, “the aging process or the boredom associated with long intervals.†The idea is ridicules. Adam Clarke wrote: “All time is as nothing before him, because in the presence as in the nature of God all is eternity; therefore nothing is long, nothing short, before him; no lapse of ages impairs his purposes, nor need he wait to find convenience to execute those purposes. And when the longest period of time has passed by, it is but as a moment or indivisible point in comparison of eternity. This thought is well expressed by Plutarch, Consol. ad Apoll.: “If we compare the time of life with eternity, we shall find no difference between long and short.†And if God isn’t affected by time as you admit, then how does “it†[the god of open theism] rely on time to make “it’s†decisions? Foolishness! JFB wrote, “Moses there says, Thy eternity, knowing no distinction between a thousand years and a day, is the refuge of us creatures of a day. Peter views God’s eternity in relation to the last day: that day seems to us, short-lived beings, long in coming, but with the Lord the interval is irrespective of the idea of long or short. His eternity exceeds all measures of time: to His divine knowledge all future things are present: His power requires not long delays for the performance of His work: His long-suffering excludes all impatient expectation and eager haste, such as we men feel. He is equally blessed in one day and in a thousand years. He can do the work of a thousand years in one day: so in 2Pe_3:9 it is said, “He is not slack,†that is, “slowâ€Â: He has always the power to fulfil His “promise.â€Â

Both commentators agree, one is Ariminian and the other a Calvinist. Both consider your idea of a god not knowing as unbiblical, unorthodox and heretical.

If that were true, there would be no end to Christ’s suffering on the cross. He would continue to suffer, forever suspended in never ending present moments of constant agony. Thankfully, this is simply a figment of dull little minds who can’t see the truth of God’s greatness and power or trust him with their future unless they can pretend he has completely worked out all details to perfection. Nope, the future isn't the present and the past has passed: it is finished.

More silliness. Christ ishe lamb that was slain before the foundations of the world [Rev.13:8]. As for “dull little minds,†Calvinists and Arminians agree on this point. God knows the future. This is called Biblical orthodoxy.

So yup, the future is seen as present to the God of the Bible, just not the “it†of open theism.

~JM~

 

[Drew]

A future period of a thousand years of Christ’s reign is planned by God, just like you plan a retirement or a vacation. Your plans may get cancelled but not his. Do you doubt that God can bring his future kingdom into being? Who or what can stop him?

If it’s like the way we plan our retirement or vacation, the god of open theism is often overruled and controlled by circumstance. Some god! You’ve created a problem for yourself.

Consider a football field that runs north-south. Along the 50 yard line are three large rocks. Somewhere along the southern goal line there stands a hunter with a rifle. There is a rabbit hiding behind the middle of the three rocks.

The hunter, like a God who only knows the future partially, knows that that the rabbit will sprint for one of the other rocks. He does not know which rock nor does he know when the rabbit will make his dash. The hunter does not know "the future" - in fact there is no "single future" that can be said to exist in the hunter's mind.

Is the rabbit doomed? Yes he is, precisely because this hunter controls enough variables to assure that he will be able to shoot the rabbit, even though there is no single future that exists. If he has a perfect rifle, if he never loses concentration, if the rocks are far enough apart, and if the rabbit is only so fast, the hunter can guarantee a kill.

Is the real world like this? I am not sure that it is. What is clear, though, is that it is very much an open question as to whether God can achieve his purposes in an environment where there is no single "future" and where God does not control all the "pieces".

If God's plans purposes were so exacting that every event had to go a certain way, then yes, there might be a problem with what unred and I are saying. But no one has made any kind of case that God has such exhaustive plans.

If the situation is analogous to the hunter whose "purpose" is to bag a rabbit, then God can indeed fulfill his plans without knowing the future exhaustively.

 

[unred typo]

Length like time is a quantity, yes, it has a value.

I didn’t say it didn’t have a value or quantity, but it only has one that we give it. It is a measurement not a person, place or thing that has identity of itself. There is no Father Time, no Back to the Future option, no timemachine or time warp thingie that can be set to a future date and transport us through it’s portals into another dimension. As someone once said, “more silliness.â€Â

These decrees are arbitrary, illogical and whimsical and like wedding plans, can be destroyed by outside influence. Therefore when the god of open theism makes a decree it’s meaningless.
If it’s like the way we plan our retirement or vacation, the god of open theism is often overruled and controlled by circumstance. Some god! You’ve created a problem for yourself. The first sentence describes your manlike god as planning a prophetic events that can be cancelled. Then you ask, what I can only assume is a rhetorical question, that seems to strive to prove the opposite point. Which is it? Does you manlike god make plans that depend on man’s reactions or does your manlike god control man’s actions to bring about “it’s†will?

Reading actual prophesies should give you the insight you need to establish the truth. What are the decrees you read most in both the major and minor prophets? God sends a man like Isaiah or Jeremiah to the king or people with a message that says, do ‘this’ or I am going to allow or cause ‘this’ to happen to you. Reading on, you will find that either they repented and did what God said to do or they continued to disobey and were punished just as he told them he would. No need to speculate that he had established this thing that happened to them from before the beginning of time.

Why would you think that because God doesn’t know the unknowable future, he is somehow limited in what he can accomplish today or tomorrow or whenever by his power and might? JM, listen: he has all power in heaven and in earth. What makes you think someone, anyone can mess up his plans? You make no sense whatsoever. Not knowing the future has nothing to do with being able to do whatever he desires to do, right now, next week, next year or two thousand years from now. He has all power, all wisdom, and all available knowledge in every corner of his entire creation, at all times. Think about it. What more can he possibly need to do whatever he wants at whatever time or place he has decreed to do it?

Adam Clarke ….Calvinists and Armenians ….Plutarch, Consol. ad Apoll…JFB

Let us bow down and worship the infallible minds here. Or not. Opinions of men. Who needs them when we have access to the mind of Christ? I have found answers to the questions of my heart quite freely given, thanks. Most of the time, I find the biggest obstacle to understanding the truth is the holding onto those preconceived notions of well meaning theologians who had their own preconceived notions to overcome.

More silliness. Christ is the lamb that was slain before the foundations of the world [Rev.13:8].

That just means that he was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the lamb slain for the sins of man, not that he was already slain long before he was born as a man. These are not literal but figurative expressions, obviously. Or rather obvious to normal readers. It is strange that anyone would make such a outlandish claim that such obvious imagery could be taken literally. It almost seems that the more one accepts outrageous fallacies as normal, the less able he is to make logical, sane evaluations.


:infinity:

 

[JM]

Consider a football field that runs north-south...

Consider the Bible instead.

I didn’t say it didn’t have a value or quantity, but it only has one that we give it. It is a measurement not a person, place or thing that has identity of itself. There is no Father Time, no Back to the Future option, no timemachine or time warp thingie that can be set to a future date and transport us through it’s portals into another dimension. As someone once said, “more silliness.â€Â

The Holy Spirit lead men to write about time as it exists in the future and even said this future would have an end. I posted scripture to support this belief, where's yours?

Reading actual prophesies should give you the insight you need to establish the truth. What are the decrees you read most in both the major and minor prophets? God sends a man like Isaiah or Jeremiah to the king or people with a message that says, do ‘this’ or I am going to allow or cause ‘this’ to happen to you. Reading on, you will find that either they repented and did what God said to do or they continued to disobey and were punished just as he told them he would. No need to speculate that he had established this thing that happened to them from before the beginning of time.

It seems you have trouble understanding what a decree is, so I'll post a quote from Websters.

DECREE, n. [L. To judge; to divide.]

1. Judicial decision, or determination of a litigated cause; as a decree of the court of chancery. The decision of a court of equity is called a decree; that of a court of law, a judgment.

2. In the civil law, a determination or judgment of the emperor on a suit between parties.

3. An edict or law made by a council for regulating any business within their jurisdiction; as the decrees of ecclesiastical councils.

4. In general, an order, edict or law made by a superior as a rule to govern inferiors.

There went a decree from Cesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. Luke 2.

5. Established law, or rule.

He made a decree for the rain. Job 28.

6. In theology, predetermined purpose of God; the purpose or determination of an immutable Being, whose plan of operations is, like himself, unchangeable.

DECREE, v.t.

1. To determine judicially; to resolve by sentence; as, the court decreed that the property should be restored; or they decreed a restoration of the property.

2. To determine or resolve legislatively; to fix or appoint; to set or constitute by edict or in purpose.

Thou shalt decree a thing, and it shall be established. Job 22.

Let us not be solicitous to know what God has decreed concerning us.

Why would you think that because God doesn’t know the unknowable future, he is somehow limited in what he can accomplish today or tomorrow or whenever by his power and might? JM, listen: he has all power in heaven and in earth. What makes you think someone, anyone can mess up his plans? You make no sense whatsoever. Not knowing the future has nothing to do with being able to do whatever he desires to do, right now, next week, next year or two thousand years from now. He has all power, all wisdom, and all available knowledge in every corner of his entire creation, at all times. Think about it. What more can he possibly need to do whatever he wants at whatever time or place he has decreed to do it?

I posted it before, it does contain scripture, maybe you'll look them up this time?
Omniscience is from the Latin omnis = “all†combined with scientia = “knowledge†the combination meaning to know all or to have perfect knowledge.

God’s omniscience is His knowledge of all things including actual and possible, past, present, and future (foreknowledge).

God is all knowing, and His knowledge is in no way restricted by temporal considerations. He knows and sees the past, the present, and the future with equal clarity and absolute certainty. To Him, all is the present.

God knows all things perfectly (Ps. 147:5; Job 37:16; 1 John 3:20), sees and hears everything (Ex 3:7; 2 Chr 16:9; Ps 34:15; 102:19, 20; Pr 5:21; 15:3; Jer. 16:16), knows from all eternity the entire plan of the ages and the part of every man in that plan (Isa. 46:9-11; 48:3-7; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:3-12).

God has perfect knowledge of each individual person and of all his ways (Ps. 33:13-15; 139:1-16; Pr. 5:21), his words (Ps. 139:4; Matt. 12:35-37), his thoughts (1 Chr 28:9; Ps. 94:11; 139:1-2; Matt. 9:4), his afflictions and trials (Gen. 21:17-19; 1 Cor. 10:13; Rev. 2:9-10, 13) and his future actions and final state (Gen. 18:19; Ex. 3:19; Isa. 44:28-45:5; Matt. 25:31-34, 41; Acts 27:22-25).

God’s omniscience means that nothing anyone does escapes the knowledge of God and that one day we will be called to give an account at the bar of God for God will deal with each according to the truth of his life (Ro 2:2, 3, 6; 14:10-12). For more information on the various judgments, see The Doctrine of the Judgments.

God's omniscience gives us confidence in prayer knowing that He will not lose our prayers and that He always knows the best answer, even knowing our needs before we ask (Matt. 6:31-34; Isa. 65:24).

Let us bow down and worship the infallible minds here. Or not. Opinions of men. Who needs them when we have access to the mind of Christ? I have found answers to the questions of my heart quite freely given, thanks. Most of the time, I find the biggest obstacle to understanding the truth is the holding onto those preconceived notions of well meaning theologians who had their own preconceived notions to overcome.

They know just as much of the future as you "god" does. You suffer from the stink of pride, are you better then other believers that you can simply disregard what they have written? Do you consider yourself without need of a Pastor, or brethren to advise you in spiritual matters? Is you mind and opinion infallible? I'm glad you realize you suffer from "preconceived notions" and associate Biblical doctrine with those who hurt you in the past.

That just means that he was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the lamb slain for the sins of man, not that he was already slain long before he was born as a man. These are not literal but figurative expressions, obviously. Or rather obvious to normal readers. It is strange that anyone would make such a outlandish claim that such obvious imagery could be taken literally. It almost seems that the more one accepts outrageous fallacies as normal, the less able he is to make logical, sane evaluations.

Thanks to jg who sent me Greek text books to study, I no longer have to guess at the meaning of these words. The Greek should be translated the way the AV has it translated and not as you suggest. Christ was slain in the Father’s eternal counsel [do a Bible search on the everlasting covenant] as we find 1 Pet. 1:19-20. This passage also teaches that election is eternal, hence, God must know the future Rev. 3:5, Rev. 17:8.

~JM~

 

[JM]

unred, it’s fruitless to continue, it’s clear you view me in the roll of a persecutor from your past because of my beliefs. The last word will be left to Drew and yourself in this thread as I'm done with it.

~JM~

 

[Drew]

Consider a football field that runs north-south...

Consider the Bible instead.

Please do not be so dismissive. If my analogy has no weight or value, please tell me (and the other readers) how it fails.

 

[unred typo]

The Holy Spirit lead men to write about time as it exists in the future and even said this future would have an end. I posted scripture to support this belief, where's yours?

I asked you to read the major and minor prophets. I know some would post them here in their entirety in an attempt to discourage the reading of a thread that had gone badly for them, but I assume you have a Bible of your own. Here are a few highlights if your reading time is so limited: Isaiah 1:19-20, 28-31, Isaiah 3:10-11, Isaiah 5:3-7, 20-23, Isaiah 7:7-9, Isaiah 8:1-4, Isaiah 9:12-21, Isaiah 10:5-12, and the rest of Isaiah reads the same way, Jeremiah 1:11-19, Jeremiah 2:7-20, Jeremiah 2:21, Jeremiah 2:29-37, Jeremiah 3:3, Jeremiah 3:7-8, Jeremiah 3:10-15, Jeremiah 4:1-4, and the rest of Jeremiah reads the same way, Ezekiel 2:3-8, Ezekiel 3:4-11, Ezekiel 3:17-21, Ezekiel 5:5-17, Ezekiel 6:1-7, and the rest of Ezekiel reads the same way, Daniel 5:18-30, Daniel 9:3-27, and Daniel’s other visions and prophesies read the same vein, and so do the minor prophets. Read them all, JM. Get a clue. God sees wickedness, sends a prophet with a warning to repent or expect judgment, the people either repent or not and the consequences are enacted upon them.

God tells of days to come. So do you and I. God knows the days are coming, whether he has seen them in his ‘crystal ball’ or not. He is an eternal being with no beginning and no end. If he died and the world ended in an instant, do you think you can get a refund for your promised eternal life? Better get up early, it’s going to be a long line. :

I posted it before, it does contain scripture, maybe you'll look them up this time?
Omniscience is from the Latin omnis = “all†combined with scientia = “knowledge†the combination meaning to know all or to have perfect knowledge.

God’s omniscience is His knowledge of all things including actual and possible, past, present, and future (foreknowledge).

‘Omniscience from the latin’ conforms perfectly with the attribute of my God. Unlike some who think they know it all, he really does.

Foreknowledge is simply knowing something beforehand. God knows beforehand what he will do about sin, about saving sinners, about building mansions in heavenly places, about causing the righteous to be born again, about raising the dead to be judged. He has foreknowledge of these things because it is his will to do them when he gets good and ready to do them, on his appointed days for everything he has appointed a day for. I know you would like to think you’re so special that he has appointed a day that ~JM~ will be glorified, but I’m afraid you will be humbled to know that you are only one of his sheep when you remain in his Son, follow his instructions and obey his reign over your life.

I believe I answered the list you claim I didn’t read on the bottom of this page of this thread:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 7f1892687c

I don’t mind reading all your verses and giving good solid interpretations of them, but it takes up a lot of space and you never seem to see them, or make your own comments on my comments. I am really disappointed in you, using a cut and paste for this post, in fact. Did YOU write this in your previous post or did you forget to give credit to the author:

God’s omniscience means that nothing anyone does escapes the knowledge of God and that one day we will be called to give an account at the bar of God for God will deal with each according to the truth of his life (Ro 2:2, 3, 6; 14:10-12). For more information on the various judgments, see The Doctrine of the Judgments.

Why should I read something from an author who is unavailable for further explanation of his work? I have access to the God of creation, who offers to explain everything I’m willing to listen to. If you would like to offer your own explanation, and not an unoriginal facsimile, I would be happy to discuss our views. If I were satisfied with a dictionary definition of him, I wouldn’t really know God at all, would I?

Thanks to jg who sent me Greek text books to study, I no longer have to guess at the meaning of these words. The Greek should be translated the way the AV has it translated and not as you suggest.

Your fallacy in this is that although you may have accurate knowledge of the terms, your understanding is still flawed. If I call you a “dead duck in regards to this thread,â€Â, and you pull out your dictionary and read me the meanings of “dead†and “duckâ€Â, and thereby attempt to prove that you are NOT a “common water bird with webbed feet, short legs, and a broad flat bill, found all over the world, with the exception of Antarctica,†whohas NOT “passed from the living state to being no longer alive,†you have still misinterpreted what I said. Common sense apparently is as rare as ducks in Antarctica.


:roll:

 

[Drew]

Why would you think that because God doesn’t know the unknowable future, he is somehow limited in what he can accomplish today or tomorrow or whenever by his power and might? JM, listen: he has all power in heaven and in earth. What makes you think someone, anyone can mess up his plans? You make no sense whatsoever. Not knowing the future has nothing to do with being able to do whatever he desires to do, right now, next week, next year or two thousand years from now. He has all power, all wisdom, and all available knowledge in every corner of his entire creation, at all times. Think about it. What more can he possibly need to do whatever he wants at whatever time or place he has decreed to do it?

I agree with this and will re-assert that it is probably our lack of comprehension of the sophistication of God that deludes us into thinking that He simply must know "the future" in order to accomplish his purposes. My opinion is that God has enough control (perhaps not total control - he has ceded free will to mankind, I believe) to ensure that his plans are fulfilled.

Besides, the status of "the future" as a "thing that can be known" (even by God) is extremely questionable.

 

[unred typo]

unred, it’s fruitless to continue, it’s clear you view me in the roll of a persecutor from your past because of my beliefs. The last word will be left to Drew and yourself in this thread as I'm done with it.

You poor boy, please do not be so concerned for my wounded heart. My battle scars have healed and I am well on the road to recovery. Some day, I’ll probably thank you for your great concern but until then, please continue as if I were in my right mind, though you may consider me a variance from the normality of your own experience. I will try to keep the “You suffer from the stink of pride†comments from influencing my opinion of your distress over my previous encounters with Calvinist/Reformed theology majors and continue to discuss the issues at hand. No harm, no fowl.
8-)

 

[Vic C.]

I was going to refrain from jumping in, but I have to say that statements like:

"whether he has seen them in his ‘crystal ball’"
"stink of pride"
and
"Read them all, JM. Get a clue"

are really unneeded. The discussion seemed to be going well otherwise.

Lets keep the insults and condescension out of the debates please.

Thanks.

 

[unred typo]

I apologize. I’ll amend my “Read them all, JM. Get a clue†to “Read them all, JM. Gain insight into the actual indeterminate nature of most of prophesy.†The “crystal ball†concept is the best way I could think of to describe looking into the future and actually seeing events happen that, in reality, haven‘t occurred. It was not meant as a derogatory statement. I’m not exactly sure what JM meant by the “stink of pride†but I’m not all that offended. It was quite an imaginative description of what he feels of me and despite what he has tried to imply, I am not suffering from some post fundamental trauma syndrome nor am I hyper-sensitive to insolent remarks.

 

[unred typo]

I agree with this and will re-assert that it is probably our lack of comprehension of the sophistication of God that deludes us into thinking that He simply must know "the future" in order to accomplish his purposes. My opinion is that God has enough control (perhaps not total control - he has ceded free will to mankind, I believe) to ensure that his plans are fulfilled.

Besides, the status of "the future" as a "thing that can be known" (even by God) is extremely questionable.

It is puzzling that some people cannot see God as having ultimate control, and still allow us to have responsibility for our own destinies, by obeying or ignoring his commands. A good father has control over his children but allows them the freedom to obey of their own free will. My Dad never held my hand to a shovel or broom and did my chores with me, breathing threats down my neck, nor did he refrain from expressing displeasure at the occasion of any disobedience. Sometimes punishment was swift and sometimes even severe, I felt, but when the conditions allowed, I was given a space to repent. I don’t see that God’s ways are so different in dealing with the human family.

When my Dad gave a command, with a consequence for not following his instructions, it was a prediction you could be sure of, and he didn‘t know the future. To imply that God, who is in the position of ultimate power (with abilities to create from nothing, read minds and hearts, and be everywhere present,) cannot do whatever he predicts, is absurd. Is he going to wake up too sick to get out of bed and cause Assyria to go to war with Jerusalem? How hard would it be to put such a desire in the Assyrian king’s heart? A dream, a vision to his prophets, a word by messenger that Jerusalem has an unguarded treasure to be had for the taking, and off they go.

As easy as child’s play for God. A study of the Messianic prophesies would be an interesting lesson in how God moves people and situations to bring his predictions to pass. To extend this manipulation to include all events and hearts being always controlled in the past, present and future, is totally unwarranted.

 

[Solo]

I was going to refrain from jumping in, but I have to say that statements like:

"whether he has seen them in his ‘crystal ball’"
"stink of pride"
and
"Read them all, JM. Get a clue"

are really unneeded. The discussion seemed to be going well otherwise.

Lets keep the insults and condescension out of the debates please.

Thanks.

I was getting ready to post that it is fairly obvious that unred typo's username describes his inability to read and type the truth while drew's username indicates that he continually drew a blank when contemplating the truth, but since you have chastized them for their improper conduct, I will not post this information to them.

 

[unred typo]

I was getting ready to post that it is fairly obvious that unred typo's username describes his inability to read and type the truth while drew's username indicates that he continually drew a blank when contemplating the truth, but since you have chastized them for their improper conduct, I will not post this information to them.

I’m sure no one would expect you to stoop so lo as to make those offensive unnecessary remarks after being asked so nicely to keep insults and condescension out of the debates. BTW, Drew was not chastised for improper behavior. He was, as always, a gentleman and a scholar. JM was the other offending party with his 'stinky' comment.

One might even wonder if you might be purposefully trying to get the thread locked before JM gets a chance to answer our posts. I'm sure that would upset him.
:-D

 

[Vic C.]

One might even wonder if you might be purposefully trying to get the thread locked before JM gets a chance to answer our posts. I'm sure that would upset him.

No one is trying to get the thread locked, so PLEASE stop provoking on any and all levels. Everyone...

 

[Solo]

Birds of a feather.

 

[unred typo]

Birds of a feather.

~JM~ has quit writing to this thread in ignominy.

Instead of writing some disparaging remark that has nothing to do with the topic, would you like to take up the torch and carry it a while for him? Perhaps you have something enlightening to reply in regards to my last post on the previous page or something Drew has contributed to the subject. It’s really not fair to Drew for ~JM~ to give up the discussion because of my disdain for his Calvinist and Reformed views, is it.
:-?