Is God in Control?

[Eventide]

To WILL is present with me...

Well the Evangelist said that God is in control of our lives to some degree so to what degree? Should I assume a lot of day to day events are the work of God guiding me in answer to prayer. Are the situations I find myself in part of God's plan for me or is it just if I prayed or what?

Let me be blunt and then try to support these things with scripture..

God is in control as much as you allow Him to be...

That's my blunt answer..

If you're born again by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit... you now have the DIVINE NATURE of CHRIST living within your earthen vessel... but there's another problem... YOU are still in that vessel as well.. so now there's a constant struggle between your OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and the new man which is CHRIST IN YOU.

This isn't going to go away until the day we die.. Paul speaks of it as this body of death.. and the problem is this..

To WILL is PRESENT with me.. and there is sin in my members..

So who sits upon the throne of my life... is it me, my old man.. ? no doubt he certainly wants to control my life.. or is it CHRIST who reigns now over all aspects of my life..?

Perhaps the most difficult thing to understand in this is that according to the scriptures it is ALREADY SETTLED.. for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in CHRIST with God.. but it's not OVER in a PRACTICAL sense.. that war within our members will be there until the day we lose this body of death... and that's our hope.. that when He comes He will change our vile body and it shall then for ever be fashioned like unto HIS infinitely GLORIOUS BODY..

Even in a moment.. the blink of an eye.

 

[Gordon]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

This makes sense to me. I feel my life is different now and hopefully God will be able to take greater control of my life as it goes on.

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

This makes sense to me. I feel my life is different now and hopefully God will be able to take greater control of my life as it goes on.

I'm sure He will Gordon.. although imo He's not going to force it.. He will simply prove Himself TRUSTWORTHY over and over again with respect to your entire life.. and the deepest demands of your heart and mind will be perfectly and for ever SETTLED in Him.

 

[smaller]

Well the Evangelist said that God is in control of our lives to some degree so to what degree? Should I assume a lot of day to day events are the work of God guiding me in answer to prayer. Are the situations I find myself in part of God's plan for me or is it just if I prayed or what?

Having believed for a fairly long time I can look back, even as an unbeliever, and see the workings of God in Christ in my life. And some of those matters are not pleasant to observe. God in Christ IS a very harsh task master in many respects, chastisements are exceptionally real and vivid, to force us to consider many matters. And as a testimony, delivery is also a very real matter from various ills and discomfiture. God will put a believer in the places of trouble, within and without, in order for those 'in Him' to understand His Workings.

There is no better thing to come to understand than a legitimate fear of the Lord. Not lip service. Genuine fear. Perfect love will cast out the fear that the world or any man can bring, but it will be replaced with Godly tasted fear which is a fear one learns to take heed and pay attention to. It will bring you into submission rather quickly.

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps one of the deepest aspects of this particular topic is this..

Is God controlling every aspect of His creatures... or is He affording them the freedom to 'see for ourself' so to speak.. even if that means us going astray..

And even in His seeking for us.. when He finds us.. does He force the hearts and minds of His creatures to be reconciled to Himself.. or does He win the hearts and minds of His creatures.. because of the very substance of His love and grace..?

We LOVE Him because He first loved US..

WE are not forced into this relationship at all.. Rebekah was found at the well and was told about the one who had inherited all things of his father.. she willingly left all that she had (even her own family) and went with that servant to be with Isaac..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only rightful KING for our LIFE.. and there is justification of LIFE in Him alone.. He IS the way, the truth, and the LIFE..

And His meekness coming into our life is just as it was when He rode into Jerusalem upon that foal..

The bottom line is this..

Are we going to let Him take His rightful place upon the throne of our life.. or will we ask for a robber and murderer to be released to us instead..?

We ALL want to reign in life... but the way to get there is through death.. denying self.. because once we're out of the way.. then the true KING of kings shall reign in our life.

And even then we're going to STRUGGLE.. because our old man doesn't like sitting below Christ.. nope.. he wants to rise up and play as well... and he often does.. he so often gets the best of us... but once again and to the eternal glory of our Lord Jesus Christ..

The matter is for ever settled in heaven.

 

[smaller]

Perhaps one of the deepest aspects of this particular topic is this..

Is God controlling every aspect of His creatures... or is He affording them the freedom to 'see for ourself' so to speak.. even if that means us going astray..

And even in His seeking for us.. when He finds us.. does He force the hearts and minds of His creatures to be reconciled to Himself.. or does He win the hearts and minds of His creatures.. because of the very substance of His love and grace..?

We LOVE Him because He first loved US..

WE are not forced into this relationship at all.. Rebekah was found at the well and was told about the one who had inherited all things of his father.. she willingly left all that she had (even her own family) and went with that servant to be with Isaac..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only rightful KING for our LIFE.. and there is justification of LIFE in Him alone.. He IS the way, the truth, and the LIFE..

And His meekness coming into our life is just as it was when He rode into Jerusalem upon that foal..

The bottom line is this..

Are we going to let Him take His rightful place upon the throne of our life.. or will we ask for a robber and murderer to be released to us instead..?

We ALL want to reign in life... but the way to get there is through death.. denying self.. because once we're out of the way.. then the true KING of kings shall reign in our life.

And even then we're going to STRUGGLE.. because our old man doesn't like sitting below Christ.. nope.. he wants to rise up and play as well... and he often does.. he so often gets the best of us... but once again and to the eternal glory of our Lord Jesus Christ..

The matter is for ever settled in heaven.

It is a hard matter for believers to see, the present workings of God in Christ in their lives. And many try and force the issues.

As you know I am quite fond of allegorical/parable studies and name association terms. There are many many legitimate 'patterns' in these various matters shown in the text, but the nature of them is hidden and will remain hidden, purposefully so.

Once they begin to be dug out or surfaced however, one can observe those patterns and see in front of their own eyes, God in Christ presently working, not only in their own lives after these patterns, but also in and with the world. They are in essence the finery of sight that His Word does bring. And yes, very very real and vivid, to this day.

We can deploy any number of 'religious' exercises, putting down the old man, self, all what I might term 'surface reflections' of simplistic matters. The meat of Gods Workings however are predictable, patternistic and quite secure understandings that are worked throughout the text.

To enter therein is in fact to be caught up into the LIVING Mystery. But certain doors, though they be set before our eyes, remain locked and are so with Divine Purposes in locking and keeping them locked. They can be opened by 'no man.' There are 'hard and difficult' Words of God that must be 'personally ingested' in order to 'move through' into understandings and most believers will fall as the early disciples did who left Him, in offense and being offended. And that is a pity really, but God will not 'damn' such. There is in fact a worldly pride, even from the god of this world upon such, that will keep many from entrance in understandings just as it did then. Those who are called into discipleship will not leave Him on this basis:

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Others are simply not meant to hear or to enter any further, post salvation. They will remain engaged with their enemies unseen. And that too is part of the mystery in allegorical patterns. And yes, it's quite quite real.

s

 

[Eventide]

We can deploy any number of 'religious' exercises, putting down the old man, self, all what I might term 'surface reflections' of simplistic matters. The meat of Gods Workings however are predictable, patternistic and quite secure understandings that are worked throughout the text.

For the sake of an excellent OP topic here.. I'd like to define who I believe the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN are, within this lump of clay through which we experience this Christian life...

The OLD MAN is me.. who I am as I was born naturally through my parents...

The NEW MAN is Christ in me, born in me miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit after I trusted in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and after I believed.

What meat might you see that supports the direct teaching of the Apostle Paul with respect to putting OFF the old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. and putting ON the Lord Jesus Christ..

You're suggesting that you have some greater 'meat' here.. so please share what that is in light of Paul's obvious teaching.. on this very important matter.

Perhaps your definitions of the old man and the new man are different.. and if so, please explain.

 

[smaller]

For the sake of an excellent OP topic here.. I'd like to define who I believe the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN are, within this lump of clay through which we experience this Christian life...

The OLD MAN is me.. who I am as I was born naturally through my parents...

The NEW MAN is Christ in me, born in me miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit after I trusted in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and after I believed.

What meat might you see that supports the direct teaching of the Apostle Paul with respect to putting OFF the old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. and putting ON the Lord Jesus Christ..

You're suggesting that you have some greater 'meat' here.. so please share what that is in light of Paul's obvious teaching.. on this very important matter.

Perhaps your definitions of the old man and the new man are different.. and if so, please explain.

Each and every believer has and will continue to have a very hard time until they come to factual grips with the evil present in our own hearts. Any number of fanciful exercises will be attempted to gloss over this fact. And every such attempt will fail and was doomed to fail from the beginning.

All of those various formulas and formats are excuses for honest looks inside the heart, and are made to justify the fact of evil within that all of us have for no uncertain fact.

Continue circling. That is part of Gods Way. The Circuit of the Priest, the movement of the prophets and even of Jesus in Galilee, the whirlwind, the Chariot, are all typologies of this matter and of Gods Workings.

No doctrine or methodology will be able to cover the fact of evil in mens hearts. Most of christian formats/doctrines are all vain and futile attempts to cover up, justify, and overlook this exact matter. And to these, the doors will be locked until they come forth with the fruit of simple honesty.

The Word was always meant to be AN INTERNAL X-RAY. To take us into our OWN temples and have an honest look at ourselves.

On that ground believers will be blinded and divided, or bound in Truth.

s

 

[Eventide]

Each and every believer has and will continue to have a very hard time until they come to factual grips with the evil present in our own hearts. Any number of fanciful exercises will be attempted to gloss over this fact. And every such attempt will fail and was doomed to fail from the beginning.

All of those various formulas and formats are excuses for honest looks inside the heart, and are made to justify the fact of evil within that all of us have for no uncertain fact.

Continue circling. That is part of Gods Way. The Circuit of the Priest, the movement of the prophets and even of Jesus in Galilee, the whirlwind, the Chariot, are all typologies of this matter and of Gods Workings.

No doctrine or methodology will be able to cover the fact of evil in mens hearts. Most of christian formats/doctrines are all vain and futile attempts to cover up, justify, and overlook this exact matter. And to these, the doors will be locked until they come forth with the fruit of simple honesty.

The Word was always meant to be AN INTERNAL X-RAY. To take us into our OWN temples and have an honest look at ourselves.

On that ground believers will be blinded and divided, or bound in Truth.

s

That's all fine but let's get to the point.. who are the old man and the new man in your opinion and what's the meat with respect to what the Apostle teaches concerning them ?

 

[smaller]

That's all fine but let's get to the point.. who are the old man and the new man in your opinion and what's the meat with respect to what the Apostle teaches concerning them ?

No amount of religious paint is going to be able to justify this working ET, and that's all there is to the matter. It is in fact an inviolate LAW that can not be avoided by ANY.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

You can 'old man' that fact to death and the fact of it REMAINS a fact.

Blaming the facts of our 'sin' on any number of 'excuses' and 'exercises' of doctrines or understandings will not and can not erase this matter of fact.

THEREFORE, the whirlwind of God comes INTO the believers.

s

 

[Eventide]

No amount of religious paint is going to be able to justify this working ET, and that's all there is to the matter. It is in fact an inviolate LAW that can not be avoided by ANY.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

You can 'old man' that fact to death and the fact of it REMAINS a fact.

Blaming the facts of our 'sin' on any number of 'excuses' and 'exercises' of doctrines or understandings will not and can not erase this matter of fact.

THEREFORE, the whirlwind of God comes INTO the believers.

s

Once again.. just asking for your opinion on WHO you believe the old man and the new man actually are.. regardless of what else you might think concerning them... we should first establish exactly WHO Paul is speaking of with respect to the OLD MAN, and the NEW MAN.

So WHO is the OLD MAN ?

WHO is the NEW MAN ?

Simple but important questions if we're going to understand the Apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[Deborah13]

I really feel like you guys are hijacking another thread. If you want to debate the OLD MAN v NEW MAN please start a thread with that title and subject, this discussion is not that. PLEASE
I know it does come into it but not the idea of the original post IMO. I think it was intended more as the idea of what GOD does not what we do.
LIKE in what does GOD control in the world and our lives as in a path for our lives. It's really a different discussion. IMO

 

[Eventide]

I have already shared that I believe that the OLD MAN is me.. who I am naturally as born through my parents.

The NEW MAN is Christ in me, when I was born AGAIN by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit.

If we differ on these points then it would be difficult to go further. If that's the case then you can share who these men are or who they represent in us, within this earthen vessel.

 

[smaller]

I really feel like you guys are hijacking another thread. If you want to debate the OLD MAN v NEW MAN please start a thread with that title and subject, this discussion is not that. PLEASE
I know it does come into it but not the idea of the original post IMO. I think it was intended more as the idea of what GOD does not what we do.
LIKE in what does GOD control in the world and our lives as in a path for our lives. It's really a different discussion. IMO

The point of the observation from my post has exactly ZERO to do with the old man/new man.

God DOES control the 'evil' in the hearts of all men, and particularly so 'in believers.'

And does so predictably and ADVERSELY.

If the intent of this thread is to carry on and heap up all and only the nicey things we all love to lay upon ourselves, then by all means, carry on.

And NEVER get to the heart of CONTROL of GOD over EVIL.

And yes, He is very MUCH so in control of that working, that it NOT be unleashed at any more measures than He Himself 'allows.'

s

 

[Gordon]

You guys seem to be taking this real deep. Could you please come back to the practical aspects of God, Satan, Chance effecting our lives when you finish?

One thing I was thinking about was God promising to make nations out of various lines. How angels of God promised that. This tells me that God was protecting and arranging things supernaturally to keep his promises. I also think of Jesus referring to children having an angel. Should we be trying to find the spiritual meaning of our circumstances? As though God and the Devil are responsible for what is going on? Should we feel some things just happen? Maybe a complete understanding isn't given but I am wondering how people are approaching their lives based on their understanding.

 

[Eventide]

I really feel like you guys are hijacking another thread. If you want to debate the OLD MAN v NEW MAN please start a thread with that title and subject, this discussion is not that. PLEASE
I know it does come into it but not the idea of the original post IMO. I think it was intended more as the idea of what GOD does not what we do.
LIKE in what does GOD control in the world and our lives as in a path for our lives. It's really a different discussion. IMO

I'm absolutely willing to drop it all and not go into any details.. it is a great topic and I've already shared much of what I had in mind.

Continue on !

 

[Eventide]

You guys seem to be taking this real deep. Could you please come back to the practical aspects of God, Satan, Chance effecting our lives when you finish?

One thing I was thinking about was God promising to make nations out of various lines. How angels of God promised that. This tells me that God was protecting and arranging things supernaturally to keep his promises. I also think of Jesus referring to children having an angel. Should we be trying to find the spiritual meaning of our circumstances? As though God and the Devil are responsible for what is going on? Should we feel some things just happen? Maybe a complete understanding isn't given but I am wondering how people are approaching their lives based on their understanding.

The simplest way I can try to 'say' it is that it's a matter of the Lord Jesus Christ winning and earning your TRUST.. not forcing His will upon you.. but proving His great love in every circumstance.. even convincing you that He suffered that unimaginable death upon the cross for our sins.. to bring us back to His Father..

He is trustworthy and worthy of our life.. but of course it's infinitely easier said than done when the rubber meets the road of life... we like to drive to..

Has the Lord proven Himself trustworthy to you ? It's a personal question and it's just something to consider.

The first matter is that you must be born again.. and if you have trusted in the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins then you're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the EARNEST (or advance) of our INHERITANCE in Him.. unto the PRAISE of HIS GLORY and unto the day of redemption..

There's road ahead.. and you're in GOOD HANDS.. and don't be surprised if there are quite a few bumps along the way..

 

[Gordon]

Thanks Eventide I can see you like to go right for the heart of the matter. I kinda want to back up though. Lets say you just got fired from your job. What is your understanding of what just happened? Is it that God has another plan for you? Is it a man made a freewill decision to let you go? Is it the devil is giving you problems? Do you just not know and trust in the Lord? Do you think he will help get you get a job by providing an opportunity? Or do you think an hr girl/guy will have to make a freewill decision to hire you?

 

[smaller]

I'll try an OPEN DOOR post here of a very brief study, which I don't post much of here.

Job is one of my favorites to find understandings of adversity, OF WHICH I PERSONALLY HAVE EXPERIENCED, so I take these matters quite seriously.

Job. The meaning of his name? "HATED." "To be treated as an enemy"

So, what do we read of him and the 'early' engagements of his dilemma?

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Yeah, so far so good. Sounds like most of us who believe.

UZ: "Wooded" or "TO COUNSEL, PLAN"

All of these association terms are taken from Hebrew and their root words.

Wood/Trees are an association term in the text for MAN for those who like the short track. (another study)

In actions, Job, also very considerate of his own family, doing all the right things he knew to do.

4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Feared God. Eschewed evil. Even seeing that a curse of God in the hearts of his children could be a very DIRE problem.

Let's see what was 'planned' for JOB by GOD, as to pattern and methodologies:

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

I take it we all know that the 'god of this world' is termed that and given that power by the HAND OF GOD?

If not, HELLO.

13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

First to go. Servants, save for a single divinely spared messenger, and cattle, specifically oxen and asses. There is also significance where the sons and daughters were eating, as to 'in who's house, the ELDER' 'the edge of the sword' the 'plowing.' Maybe another day.

SABEANS: "Seven or an oath"
OXEN: root word? "TO SEEK, TO CONSIDER, TO REFLECT"

ASSES: "STRONG and PERSISTENT in the sense of PATIENCE."

There is also other significance in associations above. This is brief.

First round of destruction done.

Round two.

16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Sheep: 'small migrating flocks' Think HEBREWS as WANDERER SHEEP. They are called sheep and Hebrews for DIVINE REASONS, which picture our 'present journey' in this wicked world.'

Round 3:

17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Chaldeans: CLOD BREAKERS
Camels: Beast of burden, forbidden for food, to deal out to or to also reward. Camel is a TWO FOLD term that can go TWO directions in meanings, both good and bad.

Round 4:

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Followed by one of the greatest 'statements of faith' in the text!

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

This man understands DIVINE PROVIDENCE.

Round 5.

6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

boil: inflamed spot, inflammation, eruption, of man, leprosy, of man and beast

These are FIVE measures of planned destruction. There are many patterns of God in these matters that connect and correlate. The text is especially intricate and intimate in these 'ways.'

THINK 5 virgins on the LEFT HAND who will NOT go through the door.
THINK 5 brothers who will not hear.

Patterns.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Eventide]

I kinda want to back up though. Lets say you just got fired from your job. What is your understanding of what just happened? Is it that God has another plan for you?

It would be important obviously WHY the person was fired from their job.. if it's based on their own fault in the matter then that's one thing, and if it's not their fault then it's another matter obviously.. regardless of that though.. God has infinitely greater plans for you.. there shall literally be no end to our inheritance in Christ Jesus our Lord..

Is it a man made a freewill decision to let you go? Is it the devil is giving you problems? Do you just not know and trust in the Lord? Do you think he will help get you get a job by providing an opportunity? Or do you think an hr girl/guy will have to make a freewill decision to hire you?

IMO your life is very REAL, and miraculous to say the least.. the God given heart and mind of man are staggering.. I certainly believe that the Lord gave us that WILL of our own because that's what makes us who WE ARE so to speak... and to have us subjected to the world in which we live.. in order for you to know His great love for you..

IMO for you and I to experience these things in the way that we do is to simply glorify Himself in the most maximum way imaginable.. through the very flesh and bone of His creatures..