Is God in Control?

[Gordon]

Thank you, Job suggests we should be looking for the spiritual meaning to our circumstances. God was both protecting and blessing him. Satan was responsible for his misery. God then was responsible for his return to prosperity.

The problem I have about it is what we might infer if the case of Job was the method of God in all our lives. Is everyone suffering being tested? If they don't return to prosperity have they failed the test? Or were they not righteous people being blessed if they didn't have anything? Is there some chance involved as well or should we always look for spiritual explanations?

 

[Deborah13]

Hebrews 2:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Ephesians 6:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Is satan a defeated foe? Yes, but like a stiff necked (stubborn) being he will not give up. He still thinks he can win.
So on a daily bases he continues to lie, steal, and destroy what he is allowed to destroy. Man allows this to a point but only at our Lord's return will it be finished. God with foreknowledge knows how man will respond in each battle both in our personal lives and in the world as a whole. He has told us what will happen.

What we see, hear, touch is not the reality of what is going on, it is just the outcome. Reality is in the spiritual realm. There is a very real battle as we see in Eph 6:12. We can get so wrapped up in our personal lives that we fail to knowledge the big picture.

I don't believe God lays out a detailed plan for our lives. Such as choosing your spouse, "your soul mate" some would say. However, if you were praying about it He may have you meet someone that fits the bill. It is our place to make choices based on the Word first and foremost and to talk to God about it. If you think He'd ever set up an UNevenly yoked relationship I don't think He would. Why not? Because He would never tell you to do something He has said in His word is not a good idea. Even when it comes to the 5 fold ministry God will lead those He has chosen and sometimes very strongly but these are anointed. Too many step out on their own without God leading.

God has given every believer a grave responsibility and huge amount of power. Thank goodness He doesn't always allow the words that we say come to fruition we'd be dropping like flys and so would the people around us. But as we learn to bridle our tongues (and fingers, as in posting, I'm guilty) and pray for wisdom, He can use us to accomplish His will. How do we know His will, we read the Word, we see it there before us and His will will be accomphished. He says so. But the details of the battle will twist and turn just as in any battle both in our personal lives and in this world.

He is faithful to accomplish all that He has said He will do. We are to live without fear!

 

[Gordon]

Thanks Deborah.

 

[smaller]

Thank you, Job suggests we should be looking for the spiritual meaning to our circumstances. God was both protecting and blessing him. Satan was responsible for his misery. God then was responsible for his return to prosperity.

Job at the core will show many matters. The first order of priority of sight is that God not only does, but PROMISES destruction upon us. And for Divine Intentions. Even good intentions. This is a pattern for us to also find understandings in our present circumstances.

Many scriptures can draw these matters out in intimacy. Jude for example points us here:

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

This was inclusive of both Moses and Aaron. I do not say they are not saved, but 'present destruction' is a very and most serious matter.

You will find however that most will not heed, and will instead heap and pile all the good and pleasant things upon themselves. Such really wallow in blindness IN PART, and by Divine Intentions. I do not say it is not from God, how and why they see 'only that.'

For others, myself for example, I was 'forced' to engage these matters, having the exercise of destruction put upon me, and this by GODS OWN PROMISES. I have come to find some understandings in these matters.

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Sons of God will know The Hard and Factual Hand of disciplines, and they will NOT wallow around under all and only the 'good things.' And even in those who do and claim such, were we to take a real look at their lives, we'd probably find out they are not as blessed as claimed in public forums. I happen to know better, knowing that whom He LOVES He also disciplines.

It's also why I tend to lay down certain facts of our present conditions, so that I may know my brothers in truth and those who are suffering from temporary blindness under only THE GOOD LIGHT, ignoring reality.

The first command from His Discipline is to TELL THE TRUTH. In such is born the FRUIT of HONESTY.

Part of that honesty is seeing the fact that God will NOT deal easily with the EVIL PRESENT within any of our hearts, no matter how hard we try to 'cover it up' as JOB DID. Gods Hand came to BITE HIM and to PROVE him anyway and REGARDLESS of where he thought he stood.

The problem I have about it is what we might infer if the case of Job was the method of God in all our lives.

There are patterns that are on the table for all of these matters. Will you experience the identical things as Job? Obviously no. The discipline patterns however will remain exceptionally consistent.

Is everyone suffering being tested?

Oddly enough it is the ones who believe themselves in the 'best standings' with God in Christ are actually the ones who bear the worst possible discipline in their hearts. And they do not even see it and are not even aware of it. It is the worst possible burden to bear. That of being only and always RIGHT.

In Gods Discipline, the lowest seat in the house is the best seat. Those on the highest seat are actually in a lot worse shape than they think or know.

If they don't return to prosperity have they failed the test?

I know this is a present difficulty for many, right now. But the 'rich man' and the 'wealthy buying their way out of crime' is a larger spiritual picture that God is presently engaging the 'world' with, among many other 'patterns.' We all get caught up in God waging the dragons tail. It's part of life.

For example, FAMINE often came to the Old Testament figures BY GODS HANDs, and it forced them into Egypt. There are great lessons learned in Egypt as well, and NONE avoids their encounters therein.

Even for N.T. believers this was a continuing fact:

Hebrews 10:34
For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Or were they not righteous people being blessed if they didn't have anything? Is there some chance involved as well or should we always look for spiritual explanations?

Having been at the bottom of the pile with exactly zero, I learned to walk one day at a time, with one foot in front of another as there was no other way to walk. God often leads that way. In patience and endurance there is MUCH MUCH gain to be had, and I do not speak of solely financial gain, which I would not trade for more valuable matters.

God saves WEAK men and into weakness THEY WILL GO.

I had old sages in Christianity who tried to 'explain' these things to me at the time of my own troubles and I could not relate, though in time I now see and more importantly have experienced what they spoke of.

Delivery and Reunion are blessed instruments that covers all scars and turns all tears of sorrow to joy.

s

 

[Deborah13]

Do you think that God had a LEGAL right to put a hedge around Job?

AND, some very interesting points in your post. I'll have to take sometime with it.

I do have to say though that I THINK Job was off on his assumption that God had taken away. Satan did it not God. Job doesn't even to be aware of satan at all.

 

[Gordon]

I lost a lot before I turned to God as the center of my life. This is really interesting stuff because people's answers have a lot to do with their approach to life.

 

[smaller]

Do you think that God had a LEGAL right to put a hedge around Job?

Fact is God can work both sides of the ledgers with any of us, both GOOD AND BAD.

Those in Him will assuredly taste THE BAD. Those who think He has NO REIGN on that side of the ledgers to apply I might suggest have been left to wallow in their imaginations.

As to Satan and not God? lol

It was all by exact and DIVINE INTENT with Job and was so precisely because he was 'a strong believer.' These will be the FIRST IN LINE in LIFE for severe punishments.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Those left 'settled' on their 'lees' will have the rug quickly snatched away, again, by Divine Intent.

Zephaniah 1:12
And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

Lees: DREGS/WATCH

Jesus:

Mark 13:37
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

s

 

[smaller]

I lost a lot before I turned to God as the center of my life. This is really interesting stuff because people's answers have a lot to do with their approach to life.

God will also bring men to their knees in weakness. The proud and the strong have no call of God in Christ set upon them.

s

 

[Deborah13]

I KNEW I shouldn't include what I thought about God or satan doing the bad to Job you anwered that.

But could you please answer what You think about whether God had a LEGAL right to put a hedge around Job?

If you did I apologize for my ignorance, because I didn't understand

 

[smaller]

He is faithful to accomplish all that He has said He will do. We are to live without fear!

Those who follow the 'footsteps' of the fathers of faith left 'the world' to wander precisely on this ground:

"And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake."

Paul speaks identically in many places:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

No instrument will divide a person from wickedness faster than Godly fear. Is it for fear of eternal destiny? No. It is fear for present retributions, justly served. It is in fact a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of our Living GOD.

If one bears Godly due respect of fear, the world and all it's men will in fact HATE you and they will know you on sight no differently than the evil spirit who spoke to the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19.

Such will see the world we are factually engaged with, beyond the flesh realm, with their own eyes, laid into them by GODLY FEAR.

s

 

[smaller]

I KNEW I shouldn't include what I thought about God or satan doing the bad to Job you anwered that.

That's OK. Funny how that works isn't it? There is no doubt in my mind that what happens to me, personally, is from God on BOTH sides of the ledgers.

But could you please answer what You think about whether God had a LEGAL right to put a hedge around Job?

God can work either side of these matters exactly as He So Pleases. As believers we should know that WORSE things can factually be put upon us, by God! And that is a cause of Godly FEAR, rightfully DUE by His Sole Election to do so.

Paul did not seek to avoid the fearful Godly Given encounters, but met them headlong, and it eventually caused him his own head by a Roman Sword.

He was 'warned' for example in Acts by a prophet, what would happen in advance. It did NOT deter him in fear of those men or what they could or eventually wound up doing to him. He met those appointments, Godly given and appointed. He was more fearful for NOT engaging.

1 Corinthians 9:16
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

If you did I apologize for my ignorance, because I didn't understand

There is no reward for things that will have no eternal values. They will all be left behind and in the dust.

To gauge these matters on dollar bill is a shame.

s

 

[Gordon]

Another example of this I have come across is Joseph's explanation of his brothers selling him into slavery being part of God's plan.

Originally they were going to kill him. If this had happened Joseph never would have come to power and helped his family. If they had not sold him into slavery he never would have come to power in Egypt.

So what I gather from this is God can work on our hearts and even use things like jealousy to accomplish his purpose. It seemed like everyone was just reacting to their situations and emotions but God had control of the situation. Another example is in Job where the men who eventually killed his servants and took his livestock must have been given this idea by Satan. What was preventing them from doing this before? God must have been preventing this somehow possibly in their minds.

I have also personally experienced what I believe to be thoughts from God. That I was doing something wrong or that I should return home. I think we can also find spiritual explanations to ours and other peoples thoughts and emotions. I have encountered people who had an irrational hatred of me. I have also heard people say God had put something on their heart to help me in some way. I think this is another way God is in control.

 

[smaller]

It is often hard to see the benefit of God when one is personally being butchered. The exercises are not always pleasant. But they do yield to patient perseverance and hope for a certainty and a good outcome. We've heard it said that it is darkest before the dawn. That old truism is a truism.

Godly fear does cause us to seek out Grace because in the end, that is the only place remaining to stand when all else is seemingly lost.

When one mountain is traversed, the tendency is to sit back and rest on our laurels and achievements, when in fact another even larger mountain has been forming on the horizon. Such is the walk of faith and therein God Himself continues to prove Himself True and Able.

s

 

[Eventide]

Thematic Study of the holy scriptures...

Another example of this I have come across is Joseph's explanation of his brothers selling him into slavery being part of God's plan.

Originally they were going to kill him. If this had happened Joseph never would have come to power and helped his family. If they had not sold him into slavery he never would have come to power in Egypt.

So what I gather from this is God can work on our hearts and even use things like jealousy to accomplish his purpose.

Another marvelous and vitally important part of this story is that it's also a part of the grand story of our Lord Jesus Christ... Joseph is a wondrous picture of our Lord Jesus Christ..

Loved by his father and hated by his own brethren.. was given a coat of many colours..

Was sold to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver..

Went from the pit to the prison to the throne...

Was given a Gentile wife...

Provided a REVELATION of future prosperity and then famine..

THEN, when the famine did come... who came looking to him for sustenance.. ? That's right.. his brethren.. and they were led to repentance and in the end were saved... and JACOB (the one who was deived into thinking that his son was dead).. learned late in his life that the son of his old age was not only alive.. but ruler over all..

Thematic study of the holy scriptures is very important.. for in the volume of the book it is written of ME saith the Lord..

 

[smaller]

Re: Thematic Study of the holy scriptures...

Another marvelous and vitally important part of this story is that it's also a part of the grand story of our Lord Jesus Christ... Joseph is a wondrous picture of our Lord Jesus Christ..

Loved by his father and hated by his own brethren.. was given a coat of many colours..

Was sold to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver..

Went from the pit to the prison to the throne...

Was given a Gentile wife...

Provided a REVELATION of future prosperity and then famine..

THEN, when the famine did come... who came looking to him for sustenance.. ? That's right.. his brethren.. and they were led to repentance and in the end were saved... and JACOB (the one who was deived into thinking that his son was dead).. learned late in his life that the son of his old age was not only alive.. but ruler over all..

Thematic study of the holy scriptures is very important.. for in the volume of the book it is written of ME saith the Lord..

Upon 'early' engagements in these matters almost none of it made any sense.

Today I could write volumes of meaningful 'association' matters as you state above. These matters do not yield themselves up to the first glance, but are born out to view by intimate engagements of the participants.

As a minor example, Joseph BOUND SIMEON in prison until they brought back Benjamin. Now who in the world would 'guess' why he chose Simeon?

Simeon's name means HEARING.

The Spirit working through Joseph BOUND HEARING in their SIGHT.

In Joseph's account there is so much intimacy of understanding it is mind blowing and detailed. Right there before our eyes, yet BOUND and released by The Holy Spirit, vivifying, allowing us in to HEAR as well.

Otherwise those details are there before the eyes, yet unseen and unknown as to method and intentions. Nearly meaningless to any casual glancer.

Every single event in those matters has deep intimacy about the ways and workings of God.

Every jot and tittle.

Precious.

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Re: Thematic Study of the holy scriptures...

Originally posted by smaller,

Those in Him will assuredly taste THE BAD. Those who think He has NO REIGN on that side of the ledgers to apply I might suggest have been left to wallow in their imaginations.

Yes, but most of Christendom believes He has NO REIGN on that side (evil), and that erroneous belief is responsible for 99% of the 200 million false doctrines that darken the sky of Babylon (Revelation 9:16)

But you are correct.


2 Chronicles 18:22 "Now therefore the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of…thy prophets and the Lord hath spoken evil against you."

Micaiah told Ahab the truth. But God had blinded Ahab because "the Lord hath made ALL things for himself, yes EVEN THE WICKED (Ahab) for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4).


For Ahab, his trip to Ramothgilead was "the day of evil" and he died because he listened to his prophets whom God, through evil spirits, had deceived. But God wants us to know He is the One who hath given them eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear:

Romans 11:8 "God hath given them…eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear."



Notice here:

Ezekiel 14:9 "If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet and I will stretch out my hand upon him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

(This is addressed to "the elders of Israel" who had come to Ezekiel to "enquire" of God - Ezekiel 14:1-3.)



And remember:

1 Samuel 16:14 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him."

If depravity is needed as in the case of king Saul, who was constantly trying to annihilate David then "the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord was sent to trouble Saul"


This pattern is repeated with Job before Saul and king Ahab after Saul. If total depravity is what is called for, as in the case of the betrayal of Christ, then Satan himself (i.e. - as with Judas) is sent to make sure that the necessary steps are taken to accomplish "whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel hath determined beforehand to be done."



The truth is:


Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (Heb. Ra): I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6 "...Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."



And the purpose behind it all:

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL."

Acts 4:28 "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

 

[Robert Hern]

Re: Yes, but most of Christendom believes He has NO REIGN on that side:


Total dominion of the earth was given to Adam
Dominion of Earth was taken from Adam by Lucifer
Because of sin, Adam and his decedents also carry this sin and Satan rules the worldly people because it is his dominion
God’s plan is to recover humanity, the only way was the perfect sacrifice of the lamb, Jesus
This sacrifice gives us the right to become children of God.
When all is said and done, by God presences alone, the Heavens and earth will be burned up.
There will be a new heaven and a new earth.
God is always in control.

 

[Gordon]

Another part of this issue I am thinking about is did humans help in writing the Bible? For instance are all the stories exactly as God intended? Could Jonah have obeyed God originally? Or did God know he would run or even set the situation of him running? Was this so Jesus could reference him later? Were the things people said to Jesus set up by God for our benefit? Is it exactly how it was intended or did human action play some part?

If you think the Bible was exactly how God intended then how would that apply to our lives? Are the situations we find ourselves in exactly what God intended or even pretty close? Is it just Biblical matters God used his foreknowledge to arrange or everything? Did God see everything that would happen some being his purpose some left to human's will and say this pleases me so I will create it?

 

[Robert Hern]

Another part of this issue I am thinking about is did humans help in writing the Bible? For instance are all the stories exactly as God intended? Could Jonah have obeyed God originally? Or did God know he would run or even set the situation of him running? Was this so Jesus could reference him later? Were the things people said to Jesus set up by God for our benefit? Is it exactly how it was intended or did human action play some part?

If you think the Bible was exactly how God intended then how would that apply to our lives? Are the situations we find ourselves in exactly what God intended or even pretty close? Is it just Biblical matters God used his foreknowledge to arrange or everything? Did God see everything that would happen some being his purpose some left to human's will and say this pleases me so I will create it?

very good point
things happen for a reason, even now
for those who belong to the Lord, there is always a lesson to learn from poor judgment
we all make mistakes and it seems bad experiences make us better people, for those in the Lord

All things (good or bad) work for the good to those who love the Lord.

 

[Robert Hern]

The heart of Pharaoh, in the time of Moses, was hardened many times giving God the opportunity to demonstrate His power.

Was God in control?