Bible Study Is Hell Eternal, Anhialation or temporary??

[Doulos Iesou]

Even if no preacher had preached on Hellfire and Damnation, we would still have the plain and direct words of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels to warn sinners of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. This doctrine comes straight from Christ Himself. That should suffice because He is God.

Jesus' very particular way of referencing the final punishment is quite different from all the others due to the audience he was addressing. Words like "Gehenna" represented Old Testament imagery and ideas, such as the "Valley of Slaughter," which God named the Valley of Hinnom after the children were sacrificed to Moloch.

It's rather interesting that in all the writings of the Apostles, they never speak of "hell," or torment of any kind.

Above and beyond that, if there were no such place, then why was it even necessary for the Son of God to descend to this earth, and suffer, and bleed, and die a horrible death for our redemption?

It would be necessary to pay the penalty for sin, which is death, and to be raised to life to bring about the New Creation. There are many reasons for why Jesus came to die on the Cross for our sins, never does he state, that he came to die to save people from eternal torment.

Redemption from what? Deliverance from what? Salvation from what? People need to make the connection between the Cross and Hell, and all will fall into place.

The Cross and Hell are never directly connected in Scripture, I wonder why that is.

Finally people need to meditate on the absolute and perfect attributes of God. His holiness, His righteousness, His justness, His mercy, His grace, and His love. They are all connected to the doctrines of Hell and Salvation. God's holiness demands Hell, God's justice demands Hell, but God's mercy and grace offer the Cross. It is that simple.

I don't know how a being as Holy as God is could permit the existence of evil for eternity, especially with that evil and suffering will be far more plentiful in that scenario. I also don't see how Eternal Conscious Torment makes sense of God's justice, as it does not in any stretch seem to be a proper punishment. Tyrants use torment and torture as a perverted and barbaric form of "justice," when really it is simply to appease their insatiable taste for violence. Also, an infinite amount of time for given as punishment for every single person regardless of the crime betrays all logic, and can only be seen as right when one disregards reason and turns to "mystery."

IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE (2 Peter 3:9).

Perish means to die, to be destroyed, it does not mean to eternally torment in hell.

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus made it crystal clear..

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

everlasting fire

everlasting punishment

you'd have to add personal opinion the change what he said..

tob

 

[Boyce]

Hmm looks like we've all got our views on this. Mathew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Sorry but I don't think God would allow his creation (who he knew would go their own way) to suffer eternal torment. Sounds a bit sychotic. And God knows that's what I think so whatever. You don't create something, knowing false prophets would arise ( and with all your power not kill these false prophets but let them lead people to eternal torment) Now I get some people would say that takes away free will, I'd link a video to lead you to think otherwise but I'm not up to 20 posts.

Also I've seen a few people say hell was created for satan and his demons, if so why aren't they there right now, why let them roam around messing up our lives then send them AND us to hell?

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus isn't just some people Boyce he's the living word of God..

tob

 

[Kathi]

Jesus made it crystal clear..

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

everlasting fire

everlasting punishment

you'd have to add personal opinion the change what he said..

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hmm looks like we've all got our views on this. Mathew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Good text, this is one of the clearest texts on the total destruction of the individual cast into hell. That not only their body is destroyed, but also their soul.

Most argue that the text only speaks to God's ability to do this, but within the context, it doesn't make any sense for Jesus to instruct his disciples to fear God for something he would never do.

Sorry but I don't think God would allow his creation (who he knew would go their own way) to suffer eternal torment.

Indeed there is an issue with God's omniscience and the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, especially when you take into account the love of God. That he would have Jesus demonstrate God's love for all men on the Cross, to love them so much, and yet foreknow that the majority of humanity would reject Jesus and go to Eternal Conscious Torment. How could God eternally torment those he loved so much that he gave his Son for? It would seem that God would have to have a broken heart for all eternity.

Sounds a bit sychotic. And God knows that's what I think so whatever. You don't create something, knowing false prophets would arise ( and with all your power not kill these false prophets but let them lead people to eternal torment) Now I get some people would say that takes away free will, I'd link a video to lead you to think otherwise but I'm not up to 20 posts.

Free will is likely a different discussion.

Also I've seen a few people say hell was created for satan and his demons, if so why aren't they there right now, why let them roam around messing up our lives then send them AND us to hell?

The issue here is Dominion, in that humanity sacrificed their God given dominion to the powers of Darkness, and Jesus came to reclaim that by setting up his Kingdom. Though the Kingdom of God has not fully come, but is in the heart of every believer, and we drive back the powers of darkness in spreading the Gospel of Light. This is more the Problem of Evil type question, in that how can a good God allow evil to happen and continue. The answer is not the easiest and that alone deserves an extended conversation, but know that God is patient with you in your struggles to understand these things. Don't get caught up in God within these secondary issues, look to the Cross.

 

[jasonc]

Since Satan is a spirit being, Hell fire will certainly be literal, but also of such intensity and quality that spirit beings will suffer there eternally. Since no human being knows the exact nature of Hell, we must believe that God in His infinite wisdom has created a lake of torment which will cause both men and angels to suffer eternally.

a spiritual place with a spiritual fire that doesn't presently hurt satan. spiritual real but not a fire that is caused from this stuff,

ie the oxidation of carbon based materials, a chemical fire, a metal fire. and electric fire. that is what I meant. I believe in sheol, and mentioned it and the levels. at least read up what is said about that. the jews do still teach that, albeit most of its universalim and but some rabbis believe in eternal torment.
so there is a physical 02 in heaven? a septic system for that food we eat there? think about from that angle.

 

[Malachi]

Jesus' very particular way of referencing the final punishment is quite different from all the others due to the audience he was addressing. Words like "Gehenna" represented Old Testament imagery and ideas, such as the "Valley of Slaughter," which God named the Valley of Hinnom after the children were sacrificed to Moloch.

The audience Jesus was addressing was not merely the ones receiving His warning, but all sinners for all times and ages. God's words are eternal and His warning are as valid and fresh today as when He spoke, while on earth, about Hell. While the physical Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) symbolized Hell, it was by no means the eternal burning and the eternal fire that Christ spoke about.

It's rather interesting that in all the writings of the Apostles, they never speak of "hell," or torment of any kind.

You may wish to revise that opinion after reviewing 2 Thess 1:9, 2 Pet 2:4-9, Jude 1:5-13, Rev 20:1-15; 21:8, and many other passages in the epistles and Revelation. If Christ preached on Hell in more detail and the apostles in less detail, that does not mean that the apostles had abandoned that doctrine.

There are many reasons for why Jesus came to die on the Cross for our sins, never does he state, that he came to die to save people from eternal torment.

The fact that John 3:16 uses the word "perish" is sufficient to establish that the primary reason for believing the Gospel is that sinners should not be banished to eternal Hell. That word "perish" (Strong's 622) is the Greek apollumi, which means to destroy fully. Vine's dictionary further clarifies this. It does not mean extinction, but total ruin or loss of well-being. When all the Scriptures are taken together, it means exactly what is stated in Rev 14:10,11:
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
What is true for Satan-worshippers is true for all the unsaved, as other Scriptures confirm in Revelation.

The Cross and Hell are never directly connected in Scripture, I wonder why that is.

Please read John 3:10-21 to see the connection. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, these are "heavenly things".

I don't know how a being as Holy as God is could permit the existence of evil for eternity

That's exactly the point. It is precisely because God will not allow sin and evil to pollute this universe for ever that He has created "the Lake of Fire", which is located in "Outer Darkness", and where Satan and all his evil angels, along with the wicked and the ungodly, will be CONFINED and punished eternally. Sin and evil will be banished from the universe eternally after this is accomplished, as described in Revelation.

 

[jabhat]

Guys, "hell" is a prison..originally made for demons/the fallen angels....The Lake of Fire is the place for disbelievers, sinners, sexual immoral people...and those who will be condemned after their Judgement Day ....Their judgement will be after they will spend some time in prison ....The Judge is the Son of God.
I.e. hell is a "solitary confinement" before the Judgement Day.

 

[smaller]

This is a good point, and perhaps good to discuss in another thread, but it is about how the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment has been used throughout history and even in our modern times to manipulate people into the Kingdom through fear. Questions revolving around God's Justice, Love and Goodness really come to bear on this topic, more so than any other issue.

Part of my own very long struggle of studies in this particular matter were cleared up immensely when the fact is viewed that, technically speaking, there are two separate and distinct entity classes bound up within all people. That would be the person and the devil and his messengers. There are a multitude of N.T. scriptures that show this fact. See Satan being addressed in Peter or Satan entering Judas for the easier/quick references. It became disingenuous theology for me to not look at the obvious overlap in the parties. Adding the facts of Mark 4:15, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 9:19-21, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 4:4 only amplifies the facts of this overlap.

And at that point of recognition it became profitable in my own sight to give the benefit of the doubt to humanity at the sacrifice of the other parties, the devil and his messengers, to solve the theology equations. And of course that also required sacrificing a lot of bad theology that I picked up along the ways of 3 plus decades of study as well.

There will be no sacrificing of the command to love our neighbors as ourselves.

And that comes with taking a very long and hard look at this same issue that operates within all of us, as sin is, after all, of the devil.

Do the math from there and most believers will quickly exonerate themselves. But they shouldn't exonerate the other party.

Therefore the eternal torment scriptures apply to that which we ourselves carry in our own flesh and between our own two ears in the form of temptation of the TEMPTER.

Few will hear in this direction. Why? Because they are intentionally blocked by a greater entity than themselves. And that, by Gods Allowance.

My take in a nutshell.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's not that simple, in that it takes a good amount of time. Perhaps there are specific topics or passages you would want me to address?


I've addressed just about every passage on the subject in other threads on this forum, I've probably spoken on this issue than any other issue in my time here.

Here are some of the many threads where I was a regular participant.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/annihilationism-and-the-gospel.52969/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/why-wasnt-jesus-eternally-tormented.46894/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/is-physical-pain-experienced-in-hell.47374/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/eternal-conscious-torment-and-justice.51830/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...lationism-ignores-important-scriptures.51622/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/annihilationism.54148/
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...w-does-c-i-and-e-c-t-affect-the-gospel.54194/

I still need the scriptures that make your case so that I may do this study you are touting here. The links are not to a study and all the hand full of scriptures presented in them do is to disprove what you are teaching when they are placed back into their context.

The Word of God is true and is self explaining when they are read in their context. I am trying every way I know not to get into a mess here but what you are handing us here is not, to this point, a Bible study with the answer to the question unless and only if we accept you as greater than God.

I am not asking for your interpretation of any given scripture or scriptures. All I need to do a study is the study material you are teaching from. The scriptures in your links, without your comments are not that material. So please, lets study and not dance, ok?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The audience Jesus was addressing was not merely the ones receiving His warning, but all sinners for all times and ages. God's words are eternal and His warning are as valid and fresh today as when He spoke, while on earth, about Hell. While the physical Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) symbolized Hell, it was by no means the eternal burning and the eternal fire that Christ spoke about.

You and I have different hermeneutical approaches it seems. I believe that we should understand the text within it's original historical context, both in why Jesus said what he said and then also why the authors of the gospel included the account. These both have purposes for their original authors, and though they're relevant to all subsequent generations, that doesn't mean we ignore that original audience when we come to the text.

You may wish to revise that opinion after reviewing 2 Thess 1:9, 2 Pet 2:4-9, Jude 1:5-13, Rev 20:1-15; 21:8, and many other passages in the epistles and Revelation. If Christ preached on Hell in more detail and the apostles in less detail, that does not mean that the apostles had abandoned that doctrine.

I'm not saying they abandoned the topic, but rather their views are expressed very differently on the whole than Jesus and that is due to Jesus' original audience. In regards to these passages, you can read this thread:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...lationism-ignores-important-scriptures.51622/

The fact that John 3:16 uses the word "perish" is sufficient to establish that the primary reason for believing the Gospel is that sinners should not be banished to eternal Hell. That word "perish" (Strong's 622) is the Greek apollumi, which means to destroy fully.

This is a proper definition, it is a strong word for destruction and death, not continued existence.

Vine's dictionary further clarifies this. It does not mean extinction, but total ruin or loss of well-being. When all the Scriptures are taken together, it means exactly what is stated in Rev 14:10,11:

Vine's dictionary is frankly terrible reference material.

Matthew 2:13 V-ANA
GRK: παιδίον τοῦ ἀπολέσαι αὐτό
NAS: for the Child to destroy Him.


Matthew 10:28 V-ANA
GRK: καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ
NAS: Him who is able to destroy both


Mark 1:24 V-ANA
GRK: Ναζαρηνέ ἦλθες ἀπολέσαι ἡμᾶς οἶδά
NAS: Have You come to destroy us? I know


Luke 4:34 V-ANA
GRK: Ναζαρηνέ ἦλθες ἀπολέσαι ἡμᾶς οἶδά
NAS: Have You come to destroy us? I know


Luke 6:9 V-ANA
GRK: σῶσαι ἢ ἀπολέσαι
KJV: life, or to destroy [it]?


Luke 9:56 V-ANA
GRK: ψυχὰς ἀνθρώπων ἀπολέσαι αλλα σῶσαι
KJV: come to destroy men's


Luke 19:47 V-ANA
GRK: ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν ἀπολέσαι καὶ οἱ
NAS: were trying to destroy Him,


James 4:12 V-ANA
GRK: σῶσαι καὶ ἀπολέσαι σὺ δὲ
NAS: to save and to destroy; but who

In these individual usages, which one of these means "total ruin or loss of well-being." Vine's Dictionary fails to take into account a few things, 1) that words have Semantic Ranges and you can't just export a particular meaning to apply to whatever text you want so that it fits within your doctrinal dogma, and 2) That the "ruin" is in reference to the idea of a city being destroyed, when this word is used in reference to a person it involves the idea of a violent destruction, not simply a loss of well-being. When Jesus' was sought by Herod as a child, I don't think he wanted to simply take away Jesus' well-being, but rather he wanted to snuff out his life... destroy him.

Please read John 3:10-21 to see the connection. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, these are "heavenly things".

I see no connection here, simply a contrast between life and death for those who believe and those who reject the Son and are condemned already.

That's exactly the point. It is precisely because God will not allow sin and evil to pollute this universe for ever that He has created "the Lake of Fire", which is located in "Outer Darkness", and where Satan and all his evil angels, along with the wicked and the ungodly, will be CONFINED and punished eternally. Sin and evil will be banished from the universe eternally after this is accomplished, as described in Revelation.

Hell or the Lake of Fire, is still God's creation and by saying it's simply in another "dimension" or something does not detract from the fact that sin and evil still exist, and the suffering is far more multiplied in that scenario. Just because it's in a different place changes nothing. That's like me saying that the United States is a much more terrorist free zone, because we have simply moved the violence to the middle east. The suffering and evil still exists, just elsewhere.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's rather interesting that in all the writings of the Apostles, they never speak of "hell," or torment of any kind.

Come on guy, this is a Bible study and not subject to opinion, please check what I found on the first web site;

http://carm.org/what-are-the-verses-that-mention-hell

Depending on the Bible, there is anywhere from 13 to 23 times that the word "hell" appears in English Bibles. The King James has more verses than all the other Bibles because it renders three words (gahenna, hades, tartaros) into "hell" where modern Bibles render them as hell and hades.

Gehennah, Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6
Hades, Matt. 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1 Cor. 15:551; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14
Tartaros, 2 Pet. 2:4

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I still need the scriptures that make your case so that I may do this study you are touting here. The links are not to a study and all the hand full of scriptures presented in them do is to disprove what you are teaching when they are placed back into their context.

You and I clearly disagree on the conclusions we draw from the evidence, so I won't even address that assertion. But I already said that you should ask me.

Perhaps there are specific topics or passages you would want me to address?

The Word of God is true and is self explaining when they are read in their context.

Yet you talk to ten Christians and you get about 10 different interpretations. If you don't understand your own biases, then you'll never be effective and handling the Word of God. The interpretation of Scripture is not as easy as you make it appear, and I think anyone who has honestly thought about this would agree with that assessment. Revelation.. Romans.. Isaiah.. etc... these are hard texts, that are written in an ancient time to ancient peoples and we have a bunch of history that can cloud our judgment and perspective.

I am trying every way I know not to get into a mess here but what you are handing us here is not, to this point, a Bible study with the answer to the question unless and only if we accept you as greater than God.

Why would you do that when I have stated I am a completely fallible teacher? I also suggested you ask me questions, and then we could go from there.

I suppose since you haven't done that we can focus on this text.

“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny. And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:26-33 (ESV)

I am not asking for your interpretation of any given scripture or scriptures.

If you don't want my interpretation, then why would we even have this discussion? You and I see the Scriptures differently, and delving into the reasons why we see it differently is where the discussion is to be found. It doesn't really do anything to post texts without explanations.

All I need to do a study is the study material you are teaching from.

The Scriptures are my source material.

The scriptures in your links, without your comments are not that material. So please, lets study and not dance, ok?

Actually they are my material, since I used them as my source in those posts rather than a Bible Study from someone else's interpretation. I appealed to the Scriptures, and sometimes within the original language to convey my interpretation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Come on guy, this is a Bible study and not subject to opinion, please check what I found on the first web site;

Everything is subject to opinion, it's your opinion that the Bible is not subject to opinion. We are subjective emotional beings who often carry heavy biases, especially when it comes to matters of religion and God. These influence so strongly that there are nearly countless divides on doctrinal and interpretation issues as it relates to the Bible.

So to say opinion is not welcome in this forum, is to end the conversation entirely and tell everyone to shut up and agree with your "straightforward approach." We don't see eye to eye, would you like to know why?

http://carm.org/what-are-the-verses-that-mention-hell

Depending on the Bible, there is anywhere from 13 to 23 times that the word "hell" appears in English Bibles. The King James has more verses than all the other Bibles because it renders three words (gahenna, hades, tartaros) into "hell" where modern Bibles render them as hell and hades.

Gehennah, Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6

Many of those references to Gehenna are restated accounts, or in one case an interpolation (but that's an irrelevant point).

Hades, Matt. 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1 Cor. 15:551; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14

Hades doesn't really have anything to do with Hell, except that the translators of the King James really messed that one up in a number of instances. Hades is simply the Greek word used in the Septuagint to represent Sheol as described in the Old Testament, which is the realm of the dead/the grave, and this word was carried over in the writing of the New Testament.

If anything one could say that Hades is intermediary state of some form, while Hell is a reference to the final punishment.

Tartaros, 2 Pet. 2:4

The rendering of this word as "hell" only reveals the many presumptions ECTers have regarding this doctrine, and how inconsistent it is.

 

[turnorburn]

What does this mean in light of what Jesus says?

"give the benefit of the doubt to humanity at the sacrifice of the other parties"

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

everlasting fire

everlasting punishment

This isn't a bible based argument your proposing this is closer to a humanist approach when your giving the benefit of the doubt to humanity..

tob

 

[Chopper]

That's right Obadiah. When I saw the thread, I said to myself, OH NO!! As much as I was involved in the other one, I came out with two view points, or interpretations....#1 The Lake of Fire is the final abode of the lost and it will be forever without any end based on a literal interpretation of the Word. When you take each word like everlasting, it means everlasting, period....#2 The wages of sin is death. That word death, not necessarily biblical but a human understanding that when death occurs, the person is dead! Nothing remains, such as a fire that consumes the object entirely. Nothing worth while is left. So you are to make a choice between the two.

 

[Ricko]

Hell is eternal, but God does not want any to spend eternity there. All who go to hell freely choose that. Should God take away free will and annihilate those who have clearly made a different decision? We all have a choice. Also, I don't read in the bible that God is the source of the torment in hell.

 

[Boyce]

Hell is eternal, but God does not want any to spend eternity there. All who go to hell freely choose that. Should God take away free will and annihilate those who have clearly made a different decision? We all have a choice. Also, I don't read in the bible that God is the source of the torment in hell.

Sorry but most people don't have a choice of "free will" in this world anymore. And no eternal torment isn't fair for under 100 years of inherited sin and generational curses.

 

[Boyce]

God created hell right? So why a torture chamber and why make it last trillions of years if God is all powerful. Why would a God that can predict the future allow those who he knew would reject him suffer? That's not all love that's a power trip.