Is Hell Permanent or Temporary?

[n2thelight]

Hell is not a place of eternal torture, God did not create His children to torment some of them for ever! The term "for ever and ever" is an idiom meaning that no longer shall they be for ever. The torment is in being blotted out and not partaking of Heaven with God for an eternity. So complete will this blotting out of a soul be that nobody else will ever know that they had even existed. This is the SECOND death.

And it truly shall be a torment to those whom, having just stood before God Himself on Judgment Day, they will have just spoke face to face with God and can see the Glory of Heaven, then they must march into the Lake of Fire never to be anymore. Below we see some Scriptures that document that 'hell' is an eternal perishment, not torture.

2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)

1 Cor 1:18
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (KJV)

At this present time there is only one soul that has been condemned (by name) to 'hell' (eternal perishing), and that is satan. Below we see it said of satan "never shalt thou be any more." It does not say that satan will roast and suffer in the fires of hell or in some eternal Nazi-type torture chamber of God - God forbid!:

Ezek 28:18-19
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

Below you see a veiled reference to the complete blotting out of a soul till there is nothing left. The below Scripture is speaking about those involved in the occult and what happens to them on Judgment day. They are cast into the flame (the lake of fire) [Rev 20:14]. And then there is nothing left of them, no remains glowing warm, nothing left to burn. This of course goes against the common perception that man has of a "Hell" as a place of eternal burning and suffering. I hope you can see it in the Scripture, like I said, it veiled or somewhat hidden:

Isa 47:11-15
11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee. (KJV)

Below we see one of satan's many names "the son of perdition" which means "the son who is judged to PERISH." Some people may tell you that the son of perdition was Judas Iscariot whom betrayed Christ, but in verse 4 below we see what this 'son of perdition' will be doing. Judas never claimed to be God! The son of perdition is satan by another name, and antichrist by yet another. But it is the same one entity:

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV)

And even furthermore, below we see the place that those judged to 'hell' go. It is the lake of Fire, not 'hell' as we often conceive it to be. In fact, the word 'hell' in the Bible is actually translated from a Hebrew word that means 'the grave' and also the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. In the lake of Fire souls perish, they are not tormented day after day for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

Below we see the Lake of Fire being dried up and the evil ones are never anymore. That my friend is the SECOND death and that is true hell to those who perish!

Rev 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (KJV)

 

[mamre]

At this present time there is only one soul that has been condemned (by name) to 'hell' (eternal perishing), and that is satan. Below we see it said of satan "never shalt thou be any more." It does not say that satan will roast and suffer in the fires of hell or in some eternal Nazi-type torture chamber of God - God forbid!KJV)

onelove,

Satan is a spirit, and a spirit cannot "roast." Spirits do not feel physical pain, they don't have a physical body. Besides the scriptures say he is a son of perdition. And the sons of perdition will be in a placed called "outer darkness." Which is reserved only for those that utterly rejected the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That is they knew what is right, they truly KNEW who is Christ (like Judas Iscariot) but they went against. The word Satan means Rebel. (To rebel against something you need to know that thing, not just believe.) So those that KNOW the truth but reject it purposefully are the sons of perdition. There are not very many of them. These, like I said, will go to the outer darkness. As God is light, that means His light doesn't shine in that place (remember they rejected light). So. if you talk about "roasting" or about lake of fire, it must be figuratively because there is no fire in total outer darkness.

The vast majority of mankind will not follow Christ (narrow and straight path). But a great number will be good people. So if you read Paul you will understand. After those that didn't accepted the gospel are judged in the 2nd resurrection, they will receive their punishment that is an infinite punishment, as they have broken the law and justice requires a penalty (this is the meaning of the lake of fire, and second death). But after the infinite type of punishment, they will receive a recompense for what they did that was good. They will live in different "heavens" according to Paul. But since they didn't accept the gospel they will not have eternal life and live with God (Third Heaven?).

Only those that overcome, like Christ did, will receive the type of life God has, which is life eternal. That means that only those that REALLY KNOW (not just believe) Christ and God will be with them. Remember, life eternal is this: that we may KNOW (not just believe) God the eternal father and Christ?

The remaining will receive different degrees of glory according to Paul (some like the moon, others like the stars), but not with God Himself.

Have a great day,
mamre

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[JudaicChristian]

Is there life in hell or not? The Serpent and it's seed says that we will not surly die, but God and Yahshua say that we will die. So who do you think is telling the truth?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Satan is a spirit, and a spirit cannot "roast." Spirits do not feel physical pain, they don't have a physical body.

How do you know so much about Satan? Did you create him or did he you? Satan has surely deceived the Christian world into believing that Satan is some kind of Immortal Deity and he can never die and also that we are all Gods just like him and we can never die and we'll all reign in this magical place called hell that is never ending because God the Father who created all of us by His Son is just not powerful enough to cause us to cease to exist.

When the Bible says that God is the only one "who has immortality"1st Timothy 6:16 I have reasoned in my mind that that doesn't include all powerful Satan who gave humans immortal souls in the garden who promised us that we could sin all we want because God is unable to cause us to cease to exist and the dead won't be really dead we'll be mighty phantoms somewhere in a mystical place somewhere outside of God's presence. Even though the only way to every be outside of God's presence is to cease to exist because God's is omnipresent/everywhere present.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Is there life in hell or not? The Serpent and it's seed says that we will not surly die, but God and Yahshua say that we will die. So who do you think is telling the truth?

Cricket, cricket, cricket.

 

[n2thelight]

At this present time there is only one soul that has been condemned (by name) to 'hell' (eternal perishing), and that is satan. Below we see it said of satan "never shalt thou be any more." It does not say that satan will roast and suffer in the fires of hell or in some eternal Nazi-type torture chamber of God - God forbid!KJV)

onelove,

Satan is a spirit, and a spirit cannot "roast." Spirits do not feel physical pain, they don't have a physical body. Besides the scriptures say he is a son of perdition. And the sons of perdition will be in a placed called "outer darkness." Which is reserved only for those that utterly rejected the testimony of the Holy Ghost. That is they knew what is right, they truly KNEW who is Christ (like Judas Iscariot) but they went against. The word Satan means Rebel. (To rebel against something you need to know that thing, not just believe.) So those that KNOW the truth but reject it purposefully are the sons of perdition. There are not very many of them. These, like I said, will go to the outer darkness. As God is light, that means His light doesn't shine in that place (remember they rejected light). So. if you talk about "roasting" or about lake of fire, it must be figuratively because there is no fire in total outer darkness.

The vast majority of mankind will not follow Christ (narrow and straight path). But a great number will be good people. So if you read Paul you will understand. After those that didn't accepted the gospel are judged in the 2nd resurrection, they will receive their punishment that is an infinite punishment, as they have broken the law and justice requires a penalty (this is the meaning of the lake of fire, and second death). But after the infinite type of punishment, they will receive a recompense for what they did that was good. They will live in different "heavens" according to Paul. But since they didn't accept the gospel they will not have eternal life and live with God (Third Heaven?).

Only those that overcome, like Christ did, will receive the type of life God has, which is life eternal. That means that only those that REALLY KNOW (not just believe) Christ and God will be with them. Remember, life eternal is this: that we may KNOW (not just believe) God the eternal father and Christ?

The remaining will receive different degrees of glory according to Paul (some like the moon, others like the stars), but not with God Himself.

Have a great day,
mamre

Have a great day,
mamre

I have no idea what you are talking about but the lake of fire is the second death...

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Death means death,not outter darkness...

The different degrees you refer to if you want to call it that,is simply your reward for your works as that is the only thing you can take to heaven

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[mamre]

Satan is a spirit, and a spirit cannot "roast." Spirits do not feel physical pain, they don't have a physical body.

How do you know so much about Satan? Did you create him or did he you? Satan has surely deceived the Christian world into believing that Satan is some kind of Immortal Deity and he can never die and also that we are all Gods just like him and we can never die and we'll all reign in this magical place called hell that is never ending because God the Father who created all of us by His Son is just not powerful enough to cause us to cease to exist.

When the Bible says that God is the only one "who has immortality"1st Timothy 6:16 I have reasoned in my mind that that doesn't include all powerful Satan who gave humans immortal souls in the garden who promised us that we could sin all we want because God is unable to cause us to cease to exist and the dead won't be really dead we'll be mighty phantoms somewhere in a mystical place somewhere outside of God's presence. Even though the only way to every be outside of God's presence is to cease to exist because God's is omnipresent/everywhere present.

With all due respect. No offense ever intended.
It is clear you don't have any idea of what you are talking, or writing about. Everything I wrote is in the scriptures, study the scriptures you'll understand.

Do you know what is immortality?
How you don't know that Satan is a spirit is beyond comprehension.

I hope you are not mocking.

Have a great day.

mamre

 

[SonByAdoption]

I can't believe I'm even asking the question, but it came up in another thread intended to be a prayer need. I didn't feel it would be appropriate to discuss this differing theology in a thread in which someone new to the faith was asking for advice. We both agreed to take this discussion elsewhere.

This is not to publicly flog her for her belief. It's just the first time I have ever heard anyone in new ageism or otherwise imply that Hell was a temporary state. It's almost like saying it's some sort of purgatory, making Hell unnecessary or unreal. Even if you have a belief that there is no actual "Hell", but a separation from God's presence, I've never heard it said that it a soul could go from that state to then be with the Father in paradise.

Mamre has used the scripture pointing to Jesus descending into Hell and rising as support for her belief that Hell is a temporary circumstance for people and Heaven is possible to reach after spending a given amount of time there. She wrote:

"I think we all picture the idea of hell as a permanent, and final place. However, I have read a couple of passages in the scriptures that shows clearly that hell is a sort of a temporary place or state.
Talking about the Savior's three days before His resurrection, Paul says:
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Acts 2: 27, 31
While the Lord Jesus was a perfect man with no sin, still He did spend a period in hell as the scriptures say that His soul would not be left there. Not being left there implies He was there. Now, since He was without sin, it seems then that He was there for a different reason."

To rebut your stated belief, I would point to a few passages. From Matthew 25:
"44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

From Mark 9:43
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

From Revelation 14:
"11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

I'd like to know if anyone has a similar belief. Mamre, I'd be interested to know where you heard this, if you haven't arrived at this conclusion on your own. I look forward to this discussion. Thanks!

mjjcb

"This is not to publicly flog her for her belief. It's just the first time I have ever heard anyone in new ageism or otherwise imply that Hell was a temporary state."
Do you know what's new ageism. You belief that you have an immortal soul is newageism. Please check this Jewish website and find out that Jews including Christ and His disciples did not believe in an immortal soul that a soul can exist consciously without the bible. The people that started that false doctrine was the Ancient Egyptians who passed it down to the Greeks but the Jews never believed in immortal soul until they learned it from the Greeks like Plato because the immortal soul doctrine is nowhere in the bible. You just think it their because you're reading it in there even when it is not and it would be my absolute pleasure to go over all those bibe verses with you at a later time. Just quickly do you notice when Jesus talks about hell he always talks about people going there with their bodies. That one you posted with the two maimed hands that verse the man went to hell with his body even in the parable the sinner went to the grave /hadies with his body and angels carried his body there and he was asking for water on his tounge and stuff like that. Jesus did not believe that souls exist outside their bodies or that hell/gehena would be forever. Eternal Punishment not Puninshing it is not an on going thing. The effects of the punishment will be forever. But once the person is thrown into the lake of fire with his body he will be all burnt up body and soul.

JewishEnclyclopedia.com
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL By : Kaufmann Kohler
Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... z0lEmECe3K
"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10)...As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality...Hellenistic View.The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended...
Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... z0lElxYe5D


Hell is not going on right now because all the sinners who ever lived are peacefully sleeping but when it happens it will be temporary. Peter talks about Christ setting the whole earth on fire will all the sinners in it. Then when all of the sinners and Satan and his angels are burnt up Christ is going to recreated the earth so no hell will not be eternal because hell is going to be on earth. It can not last forever.

 

[Mike]

Okay, I said I don't like to get into debates with Christians, especially in a public forum where those outside of the Body of Christ will misinterpret this as infighting. But this response was especially strong. I'm not going point the finger at you and judge you for your beliefs. I'm just defending my belief and ask that you would avoid from labeling me as a heretic. I wouldn't do that of you.

I believe it's clear that the punishment of the wicked will not only remain after the end of the world, but is everlasting. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

"2 Thes 1:8-8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Now, what can be meant by a thing being everlasting? After all, temporal things come to an end. But that which is everlasting is without end.

Such expressions are used to set forth the duration of the punishment of the wicked, as are never used in the scriptures of the New Testament to signify anything but a proper eternity. It is said, not only that the punishment shall be forever, but for ever and ever. Rev. 14:9-11

"9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever."

Mat. 25:44-46

"44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

From Mark 9:

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'"

That's all I'm compelled to share. I have my beliefs that I feel are grounded in scripture. While I would not say that you are outside of the Body of Christ, I would ask for the same courtesy as a follower of our Lord. I regret that anyone would give fodder for the atheist to point at or those on the fence to discourage them. I would think that our mutual love for Jesus, acceptance of His sacrifice and our striving to live lives that are in worship of Him would be enough to bind us.

Thanks to all of my Christian brothers and Sisters for their fellowship. :yes

 

[awaken]

Consider the following verse, in several Bible translations:

"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, NIV)

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, KJV)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, NASB)

"and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, ASV)

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, YLT)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name." (Revelation 14:11, DBY)

"Smoke from their torment will rise age after age. No respite for those who worship the Beast and its image, who take the mark of its name." (Revelation 14:11, Message)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, WNT)

Some Christians say that the people in the above verse will be tormented day and night for all eternity ("for ever and ever"), and other Christians say that these people will be tormented day and night for a limited period of time ("for ages and ages"). If this is meant to be a limited period of time, it's still a very long period of time.

 

[Free]

Do you know what's new ageism. You belief that you have an immortal soul is newageism.

Technically, no, it is not.

Please check this Jewish website and find out that Jews including Christ and His disciples did not believe in an immortal soul that a soul can exist consciously without the bible.

But we have the Bible... ;) :D

JewishEnclyclopedia.com
IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL By : Kaufmann Kohler
Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... z0lEmECe3K
"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10)...As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality...Hellenistic View.The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended...

It is fallacious to conclude that the idea of an immortal soul isn't true simply on the basis that it came from Greek thought.

Additionally, a problem with the Kohler's statement is that he says on the one hand "The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture," but then goes on to say "the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness."

Just how is it that the soul both doesn't exist after death and yet leads "a shadowy existence without life and consciousness" in Hades? Clearly, that is a contradiction.

Jesus did not believe that souls exist outside their bodies or that hell/gehena would be forever. Eternal Punishment not Puninshing it is not an on going thing. The effects of the punishment will be forever. But once the person is thrown into the lake of fire with his body he will be all burnt up body and soul.
....
Hell is not going on right now because all the sinners who ever lived are peacefully sleeping but when it happens it will be temporary. Peter talks about Christ setting the whole earth on fire will all the sinners in it. Then when all of the sinners and Satan and his angels are burnt up Christ is going to recreated the earth so no hell will not be eternal because hell is going to be on earth. It can not last forever.

Actually, if the soul doesn't exist without the body, then believers just aren't sleeping, they don't even exist.

Not to mention, the above ignores what Jesus states in Luke 12:43-48:

43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Just as Scripture talks about levels of reward for the believer, it also talks about levels of punishment for the unbeliever. How can this be the case if the dead don't exist and are resurrected to be thrown in the Lake of Fire where "he will be all burnt up body and soul?" That makes the punishment for all unbelievers the same but Jesus clearly states some will be "beaten" severely and others lightly. When do the varying punishments happen, if not now?

 

[LaCrum]

It is important to understand that distinction, because that shows that God is just and will not simply send people to hell (lake of fire) if those people did good but not accepted the Gospel. God would be unjust to not recompense those that did good, because all good comes from God.

The very fact that God is just is the reason that people do get sent to Hell. It is laid out very clearly in John 3:16 the requirements to get into heaven.

You’re trying to make the argument that being a “good person†while not following God through acceptance of Jesus as our Savior, is good enough to get into Heaven. You’re making two fatal mistakes here 1) You’re defining “goodness†by human standards and 2) That a person can be “good†by God’s standards without the redemptive work of Christ and the teaching of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Can a person truly be “good†without God working in their lives?

We are creatures of the flesh, and thus it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be good (by God’s standards) without us allowing Him to work in our lives.

The only reason God accepts us into Heaven is because Christians have chosen to enter into the New Covenant by believing in Christ.

By saying that believing in Christ’s atonement for our sins is not necessary, you’re completely negating the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Don’t you understand that this is the whole purpose of the Old Testament? It shows us that we aren’t good enough, we can’t obey the laws He lays out for us, and we can’t measure up to God’s standards.

It’s glaringly obvious that your understanding of the OT and NT and the Covenants within each are seriously lacking. Otherwise you would never make that argument that “good works†can save us from our sins and the punishment we rightly deserve for them.

 

[n2thelight]

We only have 2 choices....life or death....You will either live forever or you will be dead forever...The soul is not automatically immortal,it must become that way...

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The soul can and will die

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All those that take part in the lake of fire shall cease to exist.....period!!!,As witnessed by what becomes of satan himself...

Ezekiel 28

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Just to point out also,as per the above,satan was not created evil,he became that way...


17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[mamre]

You’re trying to make the argument that being a “good person†while not following God through acceptance of Jesus as our Savior, is good enough to get into Heaven. You’re making two fatal mistakes here 1) You’re defining “goodness†by human standards and 2) That a person can be “good†by God’s standards without the redemptive work of Christ and the teaching of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Sorry La Crum,
You have not read everything I have wrote, or you don't understand it.
God will not throw away good things that people have done. Even though the vast majority of people will not accept the gospel, they still will do good things. (that doesn't mean they will live with God)

ONLY doing good things doesn't qualify you to get to be WITH the Father.

To be with the Father, and have eternal life as the Father has, you need to make an keep covenants with Him. These covenants include many things such us repent and be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. etc.

As Jesus said, the path is straight and narrow is the gate and FEW are the ones that find it. So, by this statement we see that the VAST majority of people that have lived, live and will live upon this earth will not find that path and gate.

However, the vast majority of those people will not be such a bad people, they just don't care about the gospel. They simply don't care about making covenants, and don't want to be with God. That doesn't mean they will be destroyed. They will have to pay for their wrong doings because the Atonement of Christ will not apply to them as they didn't accepted it, remember?

When they have paid, then they will have to be put somewhere and JUSTLY receive their recompense for what good they have done. THAT DOESN'T MEAN they will be with God and have eternal life with those that overcome. But they will be living in some lesser place, away from the Father. Read Paul's explanations about different types of resurrections, you may be able to understand what I am saying.

AGAIN, only those that kept their covenants with God (the ones that overcome) will live with Him and Jesus Christ and those are very few comparatively with the vast multitude of people that live, lived and will still live upon this earth. That is why the true church of Christ is called "little flock" sometimes. Because few are those that care to make and keep the covenants with God and endure.

God doesn't gloss over anything, He is just, and any amount of good you did you receive your reward for it. He doesn't throw the "baby" with the wash, I repeat HE IS JUST. If you did justice, you will receive justice, for God is fair.

Having said that, you can see that there is way, way more than just saying you accept Jesus to receive eternal life. You need to make covenants with the Father to be part of His Kingdom. And those covenants need to administered by authorized servants of the Most High.

As Jesus said: one needs to KNOW God and Jesus to receive eternal life. Do you REALLY know God? Do you know who He is? How He is? And I mean REALLY KNOW, not just believe? (even the demons believe, so believing is not enough). Do you, sincerely KNOW Him? Can you stand and say I KNOW GOD because HE has talked to me? If you cannot, then you have some work to do?

Have a great day,

mamre

 

[SonByAdoption]

Technically...[immortal soul doctrine] is not.

God says in 1st Timothy 6:16 I am not quoting "I am God and I am the only one who is immortal" But we say with our satan inspired doctrine "Not so lord.our souls are also immortal we are also Gods and satan and his demons too we believe they are also immortal also Gods and lord you do not have the power to destroy us cause us to cease to exist so why not put us up in a magical place called hell forever and ever so we'll be in your hair for all time a constant reminder of your failure to convert us. ha ha ha your son died for nothing. we will sin in our hearts cursing you while we are tortured in hell for as long as you shall live" This might very well be everyday Christianity for people who believe in the immortality of the soul doctrine but to me this sounds like New Ageism and Spiritualism and Satanism.

But we have the Bible... ;) :D

We sure do and people say absent from the body and souls under the altar there you have it. Let's interpret these bible verses in such a way to make a false doctrine that contradicts the rest of the whole bible. From Genesis [man kicked out so he couldn't be immortal because he failed test] all the way to Revelation 22:14[where we will have a right to the tree of life] no man has anything immortal about him until the 2nd coming

It is fallacious to conclude that the idea of an immortal soul isn't true simply on the basis that it came from Greek thought.

He said it was the Greeks that brought it to his Jewish people. Not that it originated from them. Before them was the Babylonians and before them was the Ancient Egyptians who first introduced this immortality of the soul doctrine with their Egyptian book of the dead And they actually came out and said they were Gods. Anyways its a false doctrine and like all false doctrines it has originated with satan who told Eve that she could sin against God all she wants and still live forever.

Just how is it that the soul both doesn't exist after death and yet leads "a shadowy existence without life and consciousness" in Hades? Clearly, that is a contradiction.

With all do respect kind Sir that comment is a tad nitpicky because if you didn't have consciousness [as the bible says many times when you die your thoughts perish]than how would you know if you existed or not? Of course you wouldn't know. Look I think you think that Sheol or Hades is some magical place off world somewhere but these words sheol and hades mean grave. Whereever you die if you sink to the bottom of the ocean that is you sheol or you die in a vocano that is your sheol or you fall in a crator or wherever you die that is your sheol. The whole entire earth is sheol.

Actually, if the soul doesn't exist without the body, then believers just aren't sleeping, they don't even exist.

Hey I'm not going to argue with you there. When you die you don't know you exist. Satan and his angels don't know you exist. Angels in heaven don't know you exist. But Christ knows and he will put your unconsious spirit or your soul or your mind or you character or your personality what ever you call it whatever you think that is you back into your body glorified body with a glorified brain in the first resurrection or same old tired sick body at the 2nd ressurection. That's why the bible calls them dead in Christ. They exist in His mind. He won't forget. He will bring us back to life at the appointed time and the last thing we think when we die is the first thing we remember when we resurrect so let's hope that last thought was praise Jesus.

Besides you folks who don't believe the dead are sleeping make Christ seem like such a cruel person. I mean those people he resurrected. Their soul balls were bouncing around in heaven having such bliss but he resurrected the body and brought the soul back to this sinful planet cutting their paradise short. How cruel is that.

Not to mention, the above ignores what Jesus states in Luke 12:43-48:

43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Just as Scripture talks about levels of reward for the believer, it also talks about levels of punishment for the unbeliever. How can this be the case if the dead don't exist and are resurrected to be thrown in the Lake of Fire where "he will be all burnt up body and soul?" That makes the punishment for all unbelievers the same but Jesus clearly states some will be "beaten" severely and others lightly. When do the varying punishments happen, if not now?

Listen if hell is going on right now than God is just as cruel as satan says he is. Because if I murdered someone today but Cain murdered someone 6000 years ago than why should he burn 6000 years longer than me who did the same thing. Everybody is getting the reward at the same time with the exception of Enoch and Elijah and Moses and I think some people were ressrected with Christ and he took them to heaven but I'm not sure on the last one but I think so. Other than that we are all getting our rewards at the same time. I mean besides the thousand years in between resurrectiosn.

Listed Jesus said that Hell is going to be made for Satan and His Angels so why would we burn before Him? He's the one who's going to be the guest of honor.Demons are having a good time deceiving us they are not suffering so why should we put our humans there with our doctrine. Even though demons have convinced you to believe otherwise they know that hell is not going on now"Jesus have you come to torment us before our time" Certainly all sinners who ever lived are sleeping peacefully until the judgement and they will be throne into the earth lake of fire at the same time

And to answer your question. God is abel to control how fast or how long we get burnt and how much we suffer and of course demons will burn longer than humans and satan will burn the longest of all. But this is much more humane and much more loving and much more just than the popular doctrine. Before anyone goes to hell all sinners will willingly drop down on one knee and confess to Jesus that he is just and he did everything possible to save us and he is just and loving for putting us out of our misory because after all living in heaven would be hell for us the unconverted sinner. What heaven has no violent video games no lustful movies no baken and shrimp all we do is worship God. Truly heaven would be hell for the sinners

 

[JudaicChristian]

Is there life in hell or not? The Serpent and it's seed says that we will not surly die, but God and Yahshua say that we will die. So who do you think is telling the truth?

My question above should be a no brainer for Christians. God is not a liar, the concept of Hell has been introduced into scriptures by the Catholics. Stop trusting the Catholics to lead you in correct doctrine. The reward is eternal life and the punishment is death.

 

[Free]

He said it was the Greeks that brought it to his Jewish people. Not that it originated from them. Before them was the Babylonians and before them was the Ancient Egyptians who first introduced this immortality of the soul doctrine with their Egyptian book of the dead And they actually came out and said they were Gods. Anyways its a false doctrine and like all false doctrines it has originated with satan who told Eve that she could sin against God all she wants and still live forever.

Regardless of where the belief originated, it is fallacious to conclude that it is false based on the beliefs and culture of where it originated.

Just how is it that the soul both doesn't exist after death and yet leads "a shadowy existence without life and consciousness" in Hades? Clearly, that is a contradiction.

With all do respect kind Sir that comment is a tad nitpicky because if you didn't have consciousness [as the bible says many times when you die your thoughts perish]than how would you know if you existed or not? Of course you wouldn't know. Look I think you think that Sheol or Hades is some magical place off world somewhere but these words sheol and hades mean grave. Whereever you die if you sink to the bottom of the ocean that is you sheol or you die in a vocano that is your sheol or you fall in a crator or wherever you die that is your sheol. The whole entire earth is sheol.

This isn't being nitpicky. I have pointed out a clear contradiction in the statements made.

Actually, if the soul doesn't exist without the body, then believers just aren't sleeping, they don't even exist.

Hey I'm not going to argue with you there. When you die you don't know you exist. Satan and his angels don't know you exist. Angels in heaven don't know you exist. But Christ knows and he will put your unconsious spirit or your soul or your mind or you character or your personality what ever you call it whatever you think that is you back into your body glorified body with a glorified brain in the first resurrection or same old tired sick body at the 2nd ressurection. That's why the bible calls them dead in Christ. They exist in His mind. He won't forget. He will bring us back to life at the appointed time and the last thing we think when we die is the first thing we remember when we resurrect so let's hope that last thought was praise Jesus.

But you are arguing the point and in doing so, you are still making the same contradiction. There is no soul to "put back" into a glorified body; they would need to be completely re-created. Either the soul exists as something apart from the body or it does not; it cannot be both.

Besides you folks who don't believe the dead are sleeping make Christ seem like such a cruel person. I mean those people he resurrected. Their soul balls were bouncing around in heaven having such bliss but he resurrected the body and brought the soul back to this sinful planet cutting their paradise short. How cruel is that.

I certainly never said anything remotely like that.

Listen if hell is going on right now than God is just as cruel as satan says he is. Because if I murdered someone today but Cain murdered someone 6000 years ago than why should he burn 6000 years longer than me who did the same thing. E

That is not what Scripture says nor is it the point I was making. Please re-read what I wrote.

Certainly all sinners who ever lived are sleeping peacefully until the judgement and they will be throne into the earth lake of fire at the same time

This point cannot be sustained by Scripture but I would like to see your support for this. And, again, this is that contradiction making another appearance.

And to answer your question. God is abel to control how fast or how long we get burnt and how much we suffer and of course demons will burn longer than humans and satan will burn the longest of all. But this is much more humane and much more loving and much more just than the popular doctrine.

And I never said that that wasn't the case. In fact, if you read closely what I wrote, I think you will find, at least implicitly, that that is where I am going with this.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Free"Regardless of where the belief originated, it is fallacious to conclude that it is false based on the beliefs and culture of where it originated."

Your statement suggests to me that religious truth is a scavenger hunt and God has given all different religions in different cultures some truth so we should go out and study all religions and put all their various truths in a big melting pot or something.

Well I see things differently. I see God has one very small group of believers like the days in Noah's Ark. All those other cultures who supposedly had their own originated truth didn't make it. So you are welcome to believe every cultures originated truth you want but I'd advise against it.

S.B.A."The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation....the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness."

"Free wrote:Just how is it that the soul both doesn't exist after death and yet leads "a shadowy existence without life and consciousness" in Hades? Clearly, that is a contradiction."

SBA"... a tad nitpicky because if you didn't have consciousness [as the bible says many times when you die your thoughts perish]than how would you know if you existed or not?"

Free"This isn't being nit-picky. I have pointed out a clear contradiction in the statements made."

Why didn't you answer my question. If you didn't have consciousness would you know if you existed?

It's clearly not a contradiction at all. When the world says that a soul exists after death they mean it continues as something moving and thinking and living apart from the body am I right? That's what you believe?

But I would say a soul doesn't exist like that like a moving living object. The soul exists after death as an inanimate object. It's dead. It doesn't think. It leads a shadowy existance without consiousness and without life.

" Free wrote:Actually, if the soul doesn't exist without the body, then believers just aren't sleeping, they don't even exist."
Free"But you are arguing the point and in doing so, you are still making the same contradiction."

First of all there is no contradiction because I never said a soul didn't exists after death. You just didn't read carefully so I'll quote myself from that post I wrote mjjcb
SBA"Please check this Jewish website and find out that Jews including Christ and His disciples did not believe in an immortal soul that a soul can exist consciously without the bible."
I didn't say the soul doesn't exist without the body. I said it doesn't exist consciously without the body. Yes I know I said bible in my quote but that was a typo I meant body.

Free"There is no soul to "put back" into a glorified body; they would need to be completely re-created. Either the soul exists as something apart from the body or it does not; it cannot be both."

The soul is dead just like the body is dead. The soul doesn't leave the body. God made adam a complete man body + spirit = soul. Jesus who was born in eternity as the Son of God equal in nature to His Father but not equal in age gave up His immortality during His incarnation so he could truly die completely body and soul. And His soul never left His body and went anywhere nor did it move or think nor did His soul know if it existed or not. It stayed in the grave because that's all that the word hades and sheol means is the grave.
Psalms 16:10 "because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."New International Translation
"because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay." God's Word Translation

SonByAdoption wrote:Besides you folks who don't believe the dead are sleeping make Christ seem like such a cruel person. I mean those people he resurrected. Their soul balls were bouncing around in heaven having such bliss but he resurrected the body and brought the soul back to this sinful planet cutting their paradise short. How cruel is that."
Free"I certainly never said anything remotely like that."
You don't have to say that. Your immortal soul belief says it. The soul was happy somewhere having the time of its life and what did Jesus do brought it right back to this sinful planet when he resurrected the body where he could be depressed and sorrowful how cruel this false immortal soul belief makes Jesus look.

Free"That is not what Scripture says nor is it the point I was making. Please re-read what I wrote."
My point is still valid even if you ignore it. God they say that you've been burning Cain ever since his death and that he's getting 6 thousand more years of punishment than a murderer who died today. God they say these lies about you but I know "that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

He'res me rereading what you wrote.
Free "Just as Scripture talks about levels of reward for the believer, it also talks about levels of punishment for the unbeliever."
Nobody get's there reward sinner or saint whether they be dead or alive until Christ's 2nd coming. Before Christ leaves heaven He will say this.He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."Revelation 22:11 He's going to collect His saints and kill all the sinners at the same time. No one is going to be left behind alive. But that's off topic. I was looking for the next verse.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."Revelation 22:12
See. People are not rewarded as soon as they die. Just like John 14:1-3 says. He is building us mansions in heaven and He will personally come back to take us there.

"SonByAdoption wrote:Certainly all sinners who ever lived are sleeping peacefully until the judgement and they will be throne into the earth lake of fire at the same time"

"This point cannot be sustained by Scripture but I would like to see your support for this."
Than I would love to show you. Every time Jesus and His disciples preached about Christ they always used the O.T. and nowhere in the O.T is an every burning hell and nowhere in the O.T does sinners go to hell at death or saints go to heaven at death.

Job19:25
I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
26And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
N.I.V.

This was the hope of all O.T. believers and the hope of Christs disciples because they believed in the O.T. even if we chose not to. Not go to heaven at death but sleep unconsiously and patiently resting in peace until Christ's return and if saints don't get their reward until Christ's 2nd coming which is the first resurrection than sinners don't get their reward until after the thousand years when we all come back with Christ in the floating New Jerusalem and he wakes up all the sinners to be judged at that time.

Free"And, again, this is that contradiction making another appearance."
Never was a contradiction I said a soul doesn't exist consciously without the body not that it doesn't exist. Please read more clearly.

Free"And I never said that that wasn't the case. In fact, if you read closely what I wrote, I think you will find, at least implicitly, that that is where I am going with this."
Here's me rereading what you wrote.
Free"When do the varying punishments happen, if not now?"
Your question suggests to me that you believe that hell is going on now before the judgment where Christ punishes all sinners including satan and His angels. Maybe you believe that hell is presently going on and Satan is in charge and that there are different levels and the deeper you go the more you are tortured. But the scriptures are clearly against this fantasy. No sinner is going to be tortured in the lake of fire before satan and no sinner is going to remain after him. He's the last sinner to be disintegrated.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Okay, I said I don't like to get into debates with Christians, especially in a public forum where those outside of the Body of Christ will misinterpret this as infighting. But this response was especially strong. I'm not going point the finger at you and judge you for your beliefs. I'm just defending my belief and ask that you would avoid from labeling me as a heretic. I wouldn't do that of you.

I believe it's clear that the punishment of the wicked will not only remain after the end of the world, but is everlasting. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

"2 Thes 1:8-8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Now, what can be meant by a thing being everlasting? After all, temporal things come to an end. But that which is everlasting is without end.

Such expressions are used to set forth the duration of the punishment of the wicked, as are never used in the scriptures of the New Testament to signify anything but a proper eternity. It is said, not only that the punishment shall be forever, but for ever and ever. Rev. 14:9-11

"9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever."

Mat. 25:44-46

"44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

From Mark 9:

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'"

That's all I'm compelled to share. I have my beliefs that I feel are grounded in scripture. While I would not say that you are outside of the Body of Christ, I would ask for the same courtesy as a follower of our Lord. I regret that anyone would give fodder for the atheist to point at or those on the fence to discourage them. I would think that our mutual love for Jesus, acceptance of His sacrifice and our striving to live lives that are in worship of Him would be enough to bind us.

Thanks to all of my Christian brothers and Sisters for their fellowship. :yes

Good Morning MJCB
Evelasting destruction not everlasting destructing. It's not an on going thing.

mjjcb "Now, what can be meant by a thing being everlasting? After all, temporal things come to an end. But that which is everlasting is without end."

mjjcb "Such expressions are used to set forth the duration of the punishment of the wicked, as are never used in the scriptures of the New Testament to signify anything but a proper eternity. It is said, not only that the punishment shall be forever, but for ever and ever. Rev. 14:9-11"

That Bible verse reads very similar to one from the Old Testament.

"It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever..."

Do you see that the first part of this verse sounds just like the one in Revelation smoke goes up forever and forever so must be talking about cruel God torturing people for all eternity right? Wrong! let's look at the 2nd part of the verse.

"...from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." Isaiah 34:10

mjjcb "44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Again eternal punishment and not eternal punishing. The effect of the punishment last for ever but the punishing is not an ongoing thing.

From Mark 9:

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'"

I don't know why you are not getting this. Do you know what a resurrection is? God brings the dead back to life. He wakes up the sleeping sinners so they can be judged and he throws the whole person into the lake of fire where they will be destroyed body and soul.

Do you see this going to hell with both hands and feet in your body?

Me sharing the truth about hell to Christians and sinners does not discourage but encourages them to share that God is more loving than they thought before. God is fair and he will not and has not been burning sinners before Satan will get burnt. They have been sleeping peacefully.

And since you are so stuck on eternal fire. The bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt with eternal fire but those cities are not being burnt today. Sodom and Gomorrah are our examples of what the final lake of fire will be like. But instead of two cities the whole world will be destroyed with all sinners in it just like the flood but with fire this time.

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Jude 7 English Standard Version

"if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;"2nd Peter 2:6 E.S.V.

"That the wicked is reserved[sleeping] to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth[ressurected] to the day of wrath.""The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve[sleeping] the unjustt unto the day of judgment to be punished:""But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition[hell] of ungodly men."Job 21:30and2 Peter 2:9and2 Peter 3:7

Peter says the lake of fire will be on earth burning sinners including satan and his angels.

Listen answer my question. Jesus said that hell is for Satan and his angels. So why do you think that human sinners will burn before them. Your immortal soul belief makes God look unfair which is a red flag of who created it. Satan himself. So you can keep on believing satan if you want but God says that He alone is immortal 1st Timothy 6:16

Answer my question. Don't just quote me a bunch of bible verses. If the Bible says only God is immortal than use your common sense and answer me how do you have an immortal soul. Are you God?

Besides the Bible says that Satan the creatator of the immortal soul doctrine that you believe in will burn until he is ashes in Ezekiel 28:18

Satan and sinners will all be burnt until they are ashes. No sinners not even Satan has anything immortal about them.

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

But God didn't just keep Andam and Eve from eating the tree of life and being immortal. He kept satan and his angels from eating the tree of life as well so they are not immortal and they will burn until they are ashes and the whole world will burn until it is ashes and then Christ will recreate it just for us and the universe will be sinner free.

Oh that's why I wanted to say. Before Christ's crucifixion Satan and His angels were allowed to leave earth whenever they wanted but after Christ died they are stuck here. This is their prision. They can't go anywhere else. So they survived the flood I think because they were allowed to leave earth at that time. But they will not survive the fire when the earth is burnt up

 

[Free]

Regardless of where the belief originated, it is fallacious to conclude that it is false based on the beliefs and culture of where it originated.

Your statement suggests to me that religious truth is a scavenger hunt and God has given all different religions in different cultures some truth so we should go out and study all religions and put all their various truths in a big melting pot or something.

That is not what I am saying. Yes, there is truth outside of Christianity since all truth belongs to God.

Well I see things differently. I see God has one very small group of believers like the days in Noah's Ark. All those other cultures who supposedly had their own originated truth didn't make it. So you are welcome to believe every cultures originated truth you want but I'd advise against it.

Again, that is not what I am saying. I agree that God revealed himself most fully to a certain group of people, however, that knowledge is far from exhaustive. You want to argue that only Christians have the truth--and I agree it is the fullest truth--but it is fallacious to conclude that other religions and cultures "had their own originated truth" in regards to every belief or certain beliefs that we don't agree with.

a tad nitpicky because if you didn't have consciousness [as the bible says many times when you die your thoughts perish]than how would you know if you existed or not?

This isn't being nit-picky. I have pointed out a clear contradiction in the statements made.

Why didn't you answer my question. If you didn't have consciousness would you know if you existed

I did answer your question. Either the soul can exist outside the body or it can't. This isn't about whether or not we would be aware of our existence; that is not what was being argued.

You quoted Kaufmann Kohler: "The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness"

Here Kohler clearly states that the continued existence of the soul after death is mere speculation and that the soul does continue to exist, albeit dead in Hades. That is a contradiction. It cannot both not exist and exist at the same time; either it does exist after death or it does not. To argue that the soul exists "without life and consciousness" doesn't change the fact that it still exists. If the soul doesn't exist "after the dissolution of the body," then it doesn't exist at all.

Besides you folks who don't believe the dead are sleeping make Christ seem like such a cruel person. I mean those people he resurrected. Their soul balls were bouncing around in heaven having such bliss but he resurrected the body and brought the soul back to this sinful planet cutting their paradise short. How cruel is that.

I certainly never said anything remotely like that.

You don't have to say that. Your immortal soul belief says it. The soul was happy somewhere having the time of its life and what did Jesus do brought it right back to this sinful planet when he resurrected the body where he could be depressed and sorrowful how cruel this false immortal soul belief makes Jesus look.

No, an immortal soul belief does not have to say that at all. That is presumption on your part.

Listen if hell is going on right now than God is just as cruel as satan says he is. Because if I murdered someone today but Cain murdered someone 6000 years ago than why should he burn 6000 years longer than me who did the same thing.

That is not what Scripture says nor is it the point I was making. Please re-read what I wrote.

My point is still valid even if you ignore it. God they say that you've been burning Cain ever since his death and that he's getting 6 thousand more years of punishment than a murderer who died today. God they say these lies about you but I know "that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

No, your point is not valid since it is based on presumption. In fact, you previously stated: "God is abel to control how fast or how long we get burnt and how much we suffer and of course demons will burn longer than humans and satan will burn the longest of all." Therefore you believe that God can control how long someone is punished. This makes your other argument completely moot since God could kill Cain immediately in the Lake of Fire and burn someone who murders 6000 years later for 6000 years so it all evens out.

Certainly all sinners who ever lived are sleeping peacefully until the judgement and they will be throne into the earth lake of fire at the same time

This point cannot be sustained by Scripture but I would like to see your support for this.

Than I would love to show you. Every time Jesus and His disciples preached about Christ they always used the O.T. and nowhere in the O.T is an every burning hell and nowhere in the O.T does sinners go to hell at death or saints go to heaven at death.

Job19:25
I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
26And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
N.I.V.

This was the hope of all O.T. believers and the hope of Christs disciples because they believed in the O.T. even if we chose not to. Not go to heaven at death but sleep unconsiously and patiently resting in peace until Christ's return and if saints don't get their reward until Christ's 2nd coming which is the first resurrection than sinners don't get their reward until after the thousand years when we all come back with Christ in the floating New Jerusalem and he wakes up all the sinners to be judged at that time.

Again, where is your support that "sinners are sleeping peacefully?" Jesus and the writers of the NT refer only to believers as being asleep, never unbelievers, who said to be dead.

And, again, this is that contradiction making another appearance.

Never was a contradiction I said a soul doesn't exist consciously without the body not that it doesn't exist. Please read more clearly.

In making your argument you quoted Kohler, who does state the contradiction. Typically people quote those with the same views as support which added to my confusion regarding your position.

You had also said "Hey I'm not going to argue with you there," in response to my statement, "if the soul doesn't exist without the body, then believers just aren't sleeping, they don't even exist." To not "argue with me there" means that you agree that the soul doesn't exist without the body.