Is Hell Real?

[Tri Unity]

You two should start a thread on your old testament and what evers... were under the new testament now...

:toofunny

Thanks. What is the new testament?

:toofunny

 

[BornAgain]

I believe this too. I also know that God's inspired word was written cryptically in metaphors and parables. God wants us to examine everything closely, and not to assume too much. The Jews made this mistake with the doctrine of the trinity. They were told that God is one, and they took that literally. Jesus said the doctrine was meant to be a parable, for "the Father and I are one". The Jews just simply misunderstood this concept, as you do.

Right, not to assume too much...like how do worms stay alive in fire, why do we not see people walking around without limbs. This is ridiculous...I do not misunderstand. It is called faith.

 

[farouk]

I take the inspired Word of God literally, every word. If he speaks in parables or metaphorically that is how He wants to speak to us because we do not have His wisdom, obviously. We will never know all of the answers here, but I want to find hope and salvation and not try to worry about worms and such. If God says there is a heaven or a hell there is. The Bible is His inspired word, not to create doubt but to study and show thyself approved.

BornAgain:

Good post. Also, if judgment is real (from which also the idea of moral responsibility comes), then just reducing it to an unconscious annihilation would not seem to be logical.

Blessings.

 

[Osgiliath]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.
Edited by staff

 

[Free]

If hell is not a metaphor how come you don't see more one-eyed one-armed Christians. There never has been. If these scriptures are literal, then we are either all disobedient, or none of us really believe it.

Mark 9:43-44, 'If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

There is no reason to not take that passage literally. It just takes some thinking as to what is actually being said.

How are bodies going to burn forever in a fire, still being conscious, without dying or being consumed?

Although a common understanding, there is no biblical reason to think this is the case with an eternal hell.

A couple of questions to clarify your position:

1. What currently happens to believers and non-believers who die?
2. What will happen to believers and non-believers when Christ returns?

 

[Tri Unity]

just reducing it to an unconscious annihilation would not make sense.

Who said anything about an unconscious annihilation? Don't rush in where angels fear to tread. Read the thread properly before you make such rash statements.

 

[Tri Unity]

There is no reason to not take that passage literally. It just takes some thinking as to what is actually being said.

There is no reason not to take it as a metaphor.

How are bodies going to burn forever in a fire, still being conscious, without dying or being consumed?

Although a common understanding, there is no biblical reason to think this is the case with an eternal hell.

So in other words, it is metaphorical.

 

[Free]

There is no reason not to take it as a metaphor.

I can see why some would think it is a metaphor and it may be, but it works just as well literally. But, as I said, it takes some thinking as to what is actually being said.

So in other words, it is metaphorical.

No, not at all. If you would be so kind as to answer the two questions, I will be able to proceed with my reasoning.

 

[felix]

We in the verse discussed (Mat. 5:22) are talking about the soul, the body will return to the dust, the soul to God who gave it:


Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Soul is different from Spirit. Christ gave up His Spirit at the cross while His Soul was not left at hades.

What God has taught us is our soul is subject to the Judgment of Jesus, I doubt you claim otherwise... in this verse the soul is destined for "hell fire", the Greek word here used is transliterated "Gehenna" designating this a different place than the Hebrew Sheol or Greek Hades (or the place of the dead), the Body will die, the soul will live for eternity in this case in Gehenna...

• Are these bodies literal, or are they different to what we know?

See above!

• Is the fire literal, or is it different to what we know?

As BornAgain has said Hell (the place) should be taken as literal as you do Heaven (the place), but in both (the places) the blessings and torments alike are metaphorically represented as there is no other way for the human to understand (comprehend) the actual reality of each as it will feel like to us!

• How is a worm present in the fire without being consumed?

See metaphor described Above!

• What did the worm do to deserve hell-fire?

See metaphor described Above!

• Are there any other animals in hell?

Hope to never find out!

While I generally agree with what you have quoted here esp with statement, "no other way for the human to understand (comprehend) the actual reality of each", that does not mean there isn't any literal place called hell or heaven.

 

[farouk]

Who said anything about an unconscious annihilation? Don't rush in where angels fear to tread. Read the thread properly before you make such rash statements.

What I meant was, if people mean it's not eternal, then maybe people mean that it's supposed temporary nature causes it to morph into to unconsciousness, or something like that.

(You know, it amuses and baffles me how you could conclude that the previous post was rash!)

 

[Tri Unity]

A couple of questions to clarify your position:

1. What currently happens to believers and non-believers who die?
2. What will happen to believers and non-believers when Christ returns?

1. What currently happens to believers and non-believers who die?

I believe Christians and non-Christians both await their judgment:

"we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." (Romans 14:10)

"For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)


2. What will happen to believers and non-believers when Christ returns?

They both recieve their judgment in the resurrection.

"the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation." (John 5:29)

"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)


All people are resurrected to receive their judgment. There judgment will be everlasting.

The righteous will:

• they will "eat from the tree of life" (Rev 2:7);
• they will recieve a "crown that is life itself" (Rev 2:10);
• they will recieve "hidden manna" and a "white stone" (Rev 2:17);
• they will "receive authority over the nations" (Rev 2:26);
• they will receive "the bright and morning star" (Rev 2:28);
• they will be "dressed in white" (Rev 3:5);
• they will be made "a pillar in the temple" (Rev 3:12);
• and they will also sit with Christ on Christ's throne (Rev 3:21).

Now all of these references to rewards are metaphors, are they not? Or are you saying they literally receive a crown (WHICH IS LIFE); a white stone; hidden manna; the bright and morning star; wear white robes; turned into a pillar; and sit on Christs throne. Are all these things literal or metaphors? If the rewards are metaphors, and they clearly are, then why are the punishments not metaphors as well?
Please answer me as I have done you.
​

 

[farouk]

In the Bible, something can be both real and literal. And a symbol, too. Not least, the Cross.

 

[Free]

1. What currently happens to believers and non-believers who die?

I believe Christians and non-Christians both await their judgment:

​

"we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." (Romans 14:10)

"For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

I should have been more clear. I meant in reference to their soul. Does the soul sleep? Does it cease to exist? Does it live on in heaven or hell?

2. What will happen to believers and non-believers when Christ returns?

​

They both recieve their judgment in the resurrection.

"the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation." (John 5:29)

"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)


All people are resurrected to receive their judgment. There judgment will be everlasting.

In light of my comments regarding the first question, I'm sure you now see more what I am asking.

The righteous will:

• they will "eat from the tree of life" (Rev 2:7);
• they will recieve a "crown that is life itself" (Rev 2:10);
• they will recieve "hidden manna" and a "white stone" (Rev 2:17);
• they will "receive authority over the nations" (Rev 2:26);
• they will receive "the bright and morning star" (Rev 2:28);
• they will be "dressed in white" (Rev 3:5);
• they will be made "a pillar in the temple" (Rev 3:12);
• and they will also sit with Christ on Christ's throne (Rev 3:21).

Now all of these references to rewards are metaphors, are they not? Or are you saying they literally receive a crown (WHICH IS LIFE); a white stone; hidden manna; the bright and morning star; wear white robes; turned into a pillar; and sit on Christs throne. Are all these things literal or metaphors? If the rewards are metaphors, and they clearly are, then why are the punishments not metaphors as well?
Please answer me as I have done you.

We must be careful when using words such as literal and metaphor. Metaphors, like parables, are used to convey literal truths. The point here is that there will be rewards of varying sorts, perhaps even various levels of reward. And that agrees with Paul:

1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

What is then significant is what Jesus said:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

So just as Paul and perhaps John speak of levels of reward, Jesus here seems to be speaking of levels of punishment. Jesus uses extremely severe language when speaking of hell and we would do well to bear that in mind.

 

[Tri Unity]

Jesus uses extremely severe language when speaking of hell and we would do well to bear that in mind.

I agree. Metaphors do not lesson the severity of how serious this should be taken.

 

[SonByAdoption]

The Global lake of fire will burn Satan and sinners forever until they are destroyed.

lol ye old aeon definition of age, if that is the case then we believers dont have eternal life either.

ok you all say that god is mericiful? was it merciful to order men by the law to be stoned? that aint a quick death. was it painless for the families of the enemies of daniel that died in the lions den? was it painless when the earth swallowed the men of korah?

lol ye old aeon definition of age...

I used to be deceived by the satanic beleif of eternal torment. I used to believe that God was a evil tyrant worse than Hitler even worse than Satan even and he would burn sinners for a million years and to prove this I would quote that bible verse in Revelation that says that sinners burn in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels forever and forever and I believed that forever meant without end. But God is full of grace and mercy and He let me know in His word that forever doesn't always mean without end in the Bible.

• In the O.T. Jews could choose to be slaves of other Jews forever but forever didn't mean for all eternity. Forever meant until they died.

then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. And to your female slave you shall do the same.Deuteronomy 15:17 E.S.V.​

• Hannah dedicated her firstborn son Samuel to work in the earthly temple forever but this didn't mean for all eternity. Forever meant for his whole life.

But Hannah didn't go up; for she said to her husband, "Not until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before Yahweh, and stay there forever."1 Samuel 1:22 W.E.B.
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• Johna said that he was in the whale forever but in this case forever only meant 3 days. So maybe when Revelation says that sinners are going to be burned forever day and night than this is just talking about one literal day and one literal night. Satan is going to be tortured the worst and longest of all the sinners but God even loves Satan and doesn't want to see him suffer for too long so God will even put Satan out of his misery and destroy him after a while.​

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever: yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. Jonah 2:6 W.E.B.​

• The Bible calls some hills and mountains everlasting and then it says that God destroyed them. So guess what everlasting doesn't have to mean without end.
  ​

He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways. Habakkuk 3:6 E.S.V.
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• The evil people who lived in Sodom and Ghomorah were burned with everlasting fire than came from heaven.​
• Both Jude and Peter wrote that the everlasting fire that turnerd the sinners of Sodom and Gomorah to ashes is an example of what is going to happen to sinners who will be judged at the end.​

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 N.A.S.B.
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1. Jesus the Divine Offspring of the Eternal Father comes back a visable 2nd coming. Not a make believe secret rapture. Jesus is going to be in His full glory and all the sinful humans are going to see him in his full glory and die like when Moses asked the Son of God to see His glory in the O.T. and he told him you can't see my face and live.​
2. The only reason Christians are going to survive is because Jesus is going to give us glorifed bodies. So after Jesus resurrects all the dead in Christ who have been resting in peace body and soul in their graves he's going to take us all to heaven at the same time like Jesus promised in John 14 1-3.​
3. The earth is going to be left desolate for a thousand years only with Satan and the fallen angels all alone waiting for their fate with noone to tempt.​
4. Then all of the Christians who ever lived are going to come back to earth inside of the New Jerusalem and Jesus is going to resurrect all the unrepentent sinners who ever lived and they are going to get judged.​
5. All the sinners including Satan and the fallen angels are going to kneel down and worship the Son of God to the glory of God the Father before their sentence is carried out. They will do this out of freewill because they realize that they are not fit for eternal life because God did everything to save them but they were unwilling and they will welcome the 2nd death being tortured by fire until they are devoured out of existence.​

...if that is the case then we believers dont have eternal life either.

Adam was a complete human being before God breathed in his nostrils the breath of life while he was lieing there lifeless with a mortal spirit inside a mortal body. God breathed His holy spirit in man can he came to life. God's spirit keeps all created beings alive even satan and his angels.

God promised Adam as long as He obeys Him he will live forever because Adam had continual access to the tree of life.

This is life eternal that Jesus resurrects us and gives us glorified bodies at his 2nd coming and takes us to heaven so we can eat the tree of life.

Heaven is a real place and humans need real bodies to go there. Heaven is not a make believe place where magical ghosts can somehow survive without their bodies and float around spooking God's angels.

God never created human spirits to exist outside of human bodies. Christians and nonchristians who died dead saints and dead sinners are sleeping peacefully unconsiously and dreamlessly waiting for their perspective resurrections.

ok you all say that god is mericiful? was it merciful to order men by the law to be stoned? that aint a quick death. was it painless for the families of the enemies of daniel that died in the lions den? was it painless when the earth swallowed the men of korah?

I have to believe that God knew those peoples hearts that they never were going to change and were going to lead other people astray and that's why God chose to kill all these people in the O.T. I'm sure getting stoned is painful. It's going to be more painful for Satan and his angels and the rest of the sinners on the day of judgement because God is going to stone them with flaiming stones on fire and sulfer and stuff like that like how God destroyed the samaratians. I'm sure it was painful for Korah and his family to get dropped in some hot lava. All the sinners who ever died are resting peacefully waiting for the 2nd resurrection.

Jesus always said when he comes back he is going to give us our reward some are going to heaven and some are going to be burned up after the judgement.

I don't know how people can think that God can send people to be burned before the judgment.

I don't know how people can think that people are going to get burned before satan is going to get burned. Dont you know that Jesus said that hell is going to be made for Satan. He's the main event and special guest the main person who deservers torturing. Surle noone is going to be burning and tortured before satan.





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[Osgiliath]

Great post SonByAdoption (though I do not believe in the annihilation of anyone either - but that's a different subject for different forum). The legalistic spirit resides within Christendom today, condemning to eternal torture those for whom Christ died. Traditional Christianity shows itself to be the representative and face of God to the world, and the picture (IMAGE) they show turns the world away from the true Christ. The doctrine of eternal torment, based upon pagan legalism, is the abomination that makes the church desolate today (Matthew 24:15). The false teachings of eternal torment espoused by mainstream Christianity vilify God. The traditions of Christendom give a false image of God - a God that Scripture describes as Good, and as BEING Love. What they say about God, in "their definition" of His justice hinder the Light of His Love. The church system has let pagan notions misrepresent Him. His Name is being blasphemed among the non-Christians because the church has been an instrument of the adversary and has always misunderstood God's purpose.

Originally posted by jasoncran, 

lol ye old aeon definition of age, if that is the case then we believers dont have eternal life either.

Good grief! :help. No one says you have to study the Bible in multi-languages 24/7, but can we at least put SOME effort into it. The Hebrew word Olam (which has been translated to mean "eternal/forever") is used in so many verses where it clearly does not mean "everlasting? A few examples: "Everlasting" is applied to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple, to the length of time that reproach and shame should be upon the Jews. The word "forever" is applied to the duration of man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the to the duration of a king's life; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly. It should be obvious from the context that olam merely referred to an undetermined period of time - with a beginning and an end - not forever. 

Aion and related words ( aionian and aionios ) are the Greek equivalents of olam. Aion, literally means "age," from which we get our English word, "eon." Aion/age/eon, is merely a period of time. "Aionian and Aionios" are words that refer to the ages (plural) or pertaining to the ages. Time itself is part of the flesh, material creation. Eternity itself does not mean an endless period of time - it is a word that describes the nature of God, and exists "outside of time." It has nothing to do with linear time as we know it - time itself is attached to the carnal, earthly dimension, not the Spiritual dimension. Geez, if only people would be motivated enough to learn, these elementary discussions wouldn't be necessary, and we could discuss the depths of God's love in Spirit.

 

[Tri Unity]

The church system has let pagan notions misrepresent Him. His Name is being blasphemed among the non-Christians because the church has been an instrument of the adversary and has always misunderstood God's purpose.

I find it strange to witness blindness. Something that is so clear and plain is not seen. This blindness made the Romans despise the Jews as well. They (the Romans) thought Jews were all lunatics. We have become the Jews!

 

[Tri Unity]

The church did not teach the concept of eternal torment until AFTER the church departed from reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, substituting Latin in its stead several centuries after Christ's death.

On further analysis, I find that the Early Church Fathers overwhelmingly taught that hell is actually eternal punishment in eternal fire. There were no schools suggesting what Osgilath has mentioned. Although I still personally hold to the metaphor; I also admit that to do so goes against the fathers; it is not supported by the fathers. It seems safest to stick to the language the bible uses, which is what the fathers had done. Regardless of whether or not hell is a metaphor; the terms of eternal fire, punishments and the worm were used by Christ and should also safely be used by us as well.

My apologies to the literalists who I believe say nothing wrong in using bible language in their definitions.

Tri

 

[BornAgain]

On further analysis, I find that the Early Church Fathers overwhelmingly taught that hell is actually eternal punishment in eternal fire. There were no schools suggesting what Osgilath has mentioned. Although I still personally hold to the metaphor; I also admit that to do so goes against the fathers; it is not supported by the fathers. It seems safest to stick to the language the bible uses, which is what the fathers had done. Regardless of whether or not hell is a metaphor; the terms of eternal fire, punishments and the worm were used by Christ and should also safely be used by us as well.

My apologies to the literalists who I believe say nothing wrong in using bible language in their definitions.

Tri

Hi Tri,

No apologies necessary. Maybe I would say I am a conservative Christian-literalist sounds so political.... I do not deny the "literary" aspects of metphors or parables, but take them as serious as any other scripture in the Bible as you have stated, also. To question the Bible or challenge it (to me anyway) is to create doubt which leads to questions of my faith. I do, however use references (as I think you did) or when I attend services or Bible study bring those matters up.

Peace!

 

[BornAgain]

Universal salvation is falsehood and goes against any doctrine. The universal salvation theory is not salvation. It's man made doctrine based between a popular and a formal scholarly presentation.

The false doctrine of the non-existence of hell and torment. (some Universalist's are in disagreement)

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]False teacher's of Universalism will attempt three paramount points that are critical to their doctrine, in order to show that hell is not eternal, but only temporary, but in doing so, deny that God is eternal. By doing so, they indirectly deny that eternal life that can only be given from God (1Timothy 6:16, 1 Timothy 1:17) which completely denies the authority of the Holy Bible![/FONT]

I can quote you 54 scriptures from the Bible that describes hell and its eternal torment.