Is hell truly eternal?

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So...

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Hell still burning? Or has it burned itself out? (Unquenched)

wipe away every tear. In this verse it is mentioned the most satisfying characteristics which make the heavenly state so appealing to people in the flesh. The most stressful experiences known to human life are to disappear completely. Our bodies cannot be racked with pain; no incurable disease or death can make the heart cry out, all the sad results attributable to sin will be banished forever, for the first things are passed away. Nothing could be more comforting than freedom from the diseases and troubles of human existence.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

Malichi is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans
 
wipe away every tear. In this verse it is mentioned the most satisfying characteristics which make the heavenly state so appealing to people in the flesh. The most stressful experiences known to human life are to disappear completely. Our bodies cannot be racked with pain; no incurable disease or death can make the heart cry out, all the sad results attributable to sin will be banished forever, for the first things are passed away. Nothing could be more comforting than freedom from the diseases and troubles of human existence.



Malichi is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans

At what point during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem did this occur?

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
 
At what point during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem did this occur?

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

I did a brief research and it looks like Malachi wrote this chapter around 430 BC. I see where you are going with this...
 
I did a brief research and it looks like Malachi wrote this chapter around 430 BC. I see where you are going with this...

Perhaps, I am definitely not a Preterist, I believe that this passage in Malachi ties in directly with...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The time of the punishment of the wicked.
 
Perhaps, I am definitely not a Preterist, I believe that this passage in Malachi ties in directly with...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The time of the punishment of the wicked.

Nor am I but this is what I learned from Mal 4:2.


You that fear my name—The persons mentioned in the sixteenth verse of the preceding chapter, ye that look for redemption through the Messiah.

The Sun of righteousness—The Lord Jesus, the promised Messiah; the Hope of Israel.

With healing in his wings—As the sun brings into fruition creation, giving, through God, light and life everywhere; so Jesus by his grace and Spirit, shall refine every soul that believes in him bringing the seeds of righteousness, andng and drying up the seeds of sin. The rays of this Sun are the truths of his Gospel, and the influences of his Spirit. And at present these are universally diffused.

And ye shall go forth—Ye who believe on his name shall go forth out of Jerusalem when the Romans shall come up against it. The Christians who were then in it, knowing, by seeing Jerusalem had armies, that the day of its destruction was come, when their Lord commanded them to flee into the mountains, took this opportunity to escape from Jerusalem, and go to Pella, in Coelesyria; so that no Christian life fell in the siege and destruction of this city.
But these words are of more general application and meaning; "ye shall go forth" in all the occupations of life, but particularly in the means of grace.

Grow up as calves of the stall—Full of health of life, and spirits, satisfied and happy.

Now in Mal 4:6 there are 3 prophecies:

1. The advent of John the Baptist in the spirit and authority of Elijah.

2. The manifestation of Christ in the flesh under the Sun of righteousness.

3. The final destrution of Jerusalem under the emblem of a burning oven consuming everything cast into it.

These three prophecies, relating to the most important facts that have ever taken place in the history of the world, announced here nearly four hundred years before their occurrence, have been most circumstantially fulfilled.
 
I meantion Hebrew being our several founding fathers/authors of our bible. God is a loving God.

The authors of our New Testament wrote in Greek, not Hebrew.

Doing away with Hell is becoming popular. I don't think this has as much to do with the Bible as with the Political Correctness of ignoring God's righteousness and justice, while chanting God is love. But, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think it's entirely likely that the wicked perish, cease to exist, rather than suffer for eternity. Fire is a symbol of destruction, used by Jesus in parables about God's judgement.
 
The authors of our New Testament wrote in Greek, not Hebrew.

Doing away with Hell is becoming popular. I don't think this has as much to do with the Bible as with the Political Correctness of ignoring God's righteousness and justice, while chanting God is love. But, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think it's entirely likely that the wicked perish, cease to exist, rather than suffer for eternity. Fire is a symbol of destruction, used by Jesus in parables about God's judgement.

I heard that saying about the clock in a movie with Anthony Hopkins!

It is funny that you should mention the lack of preaching about hell. I read something the other day that people are reluctant to use the word let alone preach about it. But, God gives us the same information on heaven as he does hell. Acts 20:27. God intended for for us to know the reality of hell and the true gospel preaching should include it. It is in Matthew 18:9, 10:28, 25:46. We need to hear lessons on hell and the warnings against going there. Matthew 7:13 & Matthew 7:14

It is up to man to make the choice.
 
I heard that saying about the clock in a movie with Anthony Hopkins!

It is funny that you should mention the lack of preaching about hell. I read something the other day that people are reluctant to use the word let alone preach about it. But, God gives us the same information on heaven as he does hell. Acts 20:27. God intended for for us to know the reality of hell and the true gospel preaching should include it. It is in Matthew 18:9, 10:28, 25:46. We need to hear lessons on hell and the warnings against going there. Matthew 7:13 & Matthew 7:14

It is up to man to make the choice.

Well, exactly. In fact, the Lord Jesus is recorded as speaking much more about hell than about heaven. The strong inference: God is giving people every opportunity not to go there, if only they would repent.
 
Life and Death: The Two Polar Opposites

The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternallife through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Could anything be clearer than this text? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:

MATTHEW 7:13-14

“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.â€

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.â€

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.[2]

All these passages clearly describe the two separate destinies of the righteous and the unrighteous. The “righteous†are people who are in-right-standing with God because they’ve accepted his sacrifice for their sins, the “unrighteous†are those who are not in-right-standing with their Creator because they’ve rejected his offer of salvation.[3] The former will inherit eternal life, whereas the latter will reap the wages of sin and be destroyed.

Yet those who adhere to the eternal torture doctrine mysteriously don’t accept this blatantly clear biblical truth. They don’t believe that the two polar opposites are life and death; they believe the two polar opposites are eternal life in heavenly bliss and eternal life in burning torment. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? They may not phrase it in such an open manner, but this is what they actually believe when it comes down to it.

http://hell-know.net/

The above link is an excellent study on this subject
 
No, it is emphatically and Scripturally NOT eternal. Nor is it at all like orthodox Christianity believes it is.

Eternal (eternity) - "Independent of time or its conditions; TIMELESS, UNCHANGEABLE; IMMUTABLE" (Webster's).

The original Scriptures do not contain the word "eternal" or its equivalent. No one can give you a "Scriptural definition" of eternity, because it doesn't exist. There are, however, explanations of such a phenomenon. God's abode is in Heaven -- which is decidedly NOT a geographical location in space. God is CHANGELESS. God did not exist from earliest TIME; God CREATED TIME. God made the aions (eons) or ages of time (Hebrews 1:2). God existed BEFORE TIME [ages] (1 Corinthians 2:7). All ages of TIME will come to and end (Ephesians 2:7). But God and we will continue to exist outside of time ('athanasa' -- Immortality = DEATH-LESS-NESS, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54). Eternity is NOT "time and space without boundaries or limits and having NO BEGINNING (that eliminates 'time') and NO END (that eliminates 'time'). And who says that there will always be physical 'space'? After all, SPACE itself is a "physical" phenomenon, having nothing to do with the Spirit.

"Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom (the FIRSTFRUITS are the FIRST of the harvest - only they receive "AIONION LIFE.") Most of Christendom thinks this is talking about "believers receiving eternal life (aionion life)." But Scripturally it has absolutely nothing to do with that concept whatsoever. Orthodox Christianity is totally clueless with regard to this entire subject.

What allows those who are given "aionion life" to continue living even AFTER the aions (eons) are past, is not the promise from God of 'so-called' "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY." God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest (firstfruits), receive it ages or aions (eons) IN ADVANCE of the rest.

Orthodoxy and Scriptural Truth are Light Years from each other :wink3
 
Thats deep Mr O. I admit I didn't get all that together but what I did helped. May I ask this question? Could hell be the last battle with God, the armegeddon? Its said that that is the hell the bible is referring too because during that time of destruction it makes all other wars look puny when we think of the weapons man will have coming against the Holy City. The aftermath of nuclear, thermo, and biological war will result in ashes as far as the eye can see. Nothing can quench the fires or the torments people will suffer. And it'll be some time before those fires are burned out completely. Some of the victims of Hiroshima are still suffering today from the aftermath in their old age to my understanding. Could these perspectives be considered? Many scriptures give refferences to an end of all suffering. God is not a liar but it would be questionable if hell is eternal by our understanding.
 
Originally posted by Reba,

Hell in what ever form is seperation from God...that is enough for me.

Separation from God is an impossibility in its conception. The only LIFE that exists is God, so a person cannot be separated from God and be conscious or alive in any way. Without the presence of God, a physical person (or any living organism) would be a lifeless mass of inorganic matter. And the Spirit is the very essence of God Himself. The idea of a "literal separation" from God is a careless religious concept conceived "in haste" in an effort to "cushion" the idea of eternal torment in the fires of Hell.

And if eternal punishment were true, God Himself would also have to be present within someone who is in Hell, because there is NO LIFE apart from Him. He alone is immortal (eternal), so only God Himself could be eternally tormented.
 
Originally posted by Eduardo,

May I ask this question? Could hell be the last battle with God, the armegeddon? Its said that that is the hell the bible is referring too because during that time of destruction it makes all other wars look puny when we think of the weapons man will have coming against the Holy City.

I'm sure you know the Hebrew word translated Hell (SHEOL = the realm of the dead, the abode of the dead, or the state of the dead), as well as the three Greek words translated Hell (1. HADES = the Greek equivalent of Sheol; 2. GEHENNA = the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, which was the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem, a place of constant burning of refuse; 3. TARTAROO = a restraint, a confinement, a prison, a condition in which the angels are held for a specific period of time, in the same manner as prisoners are often held in jail awaiting the day of trial.)

And then there is the LAKE OF FIRE, which is THE SECOND DEATH. The term "second death" (this is the lake of fire- Revelation 20:14) carries in its name its own definition. It is DEATH.

Why should unbelievers who have been judged (judgment means making right), go to the second death? For the same reason we who are now justified by faith go to the first one (i.e. - the same reason the firstfruits experience the "first death.") In other words, sooner or later, we ALL die for what we still are, that is, human beings born into the realm of Adam. The carnal, worldly, old Adamic man MUST DIE eventually! It happens to some sooner, and some later.

Revelation 2:11 says; "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches; He that overcomes shall not be HURT of the second death." Notice this DOES NOT say that the overcomer experiences nothing of the second death, that he does not pass through it, or that its work is not wrought in his life; but says he will not be "hurt" by it.

"And these three men Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then Nebuchnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spoke, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they HAVE NO HURT; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God" (Daniel 3:23-25).

The word "hurt" is from the Greek ADIKEO meaning to be unjust, do wrong, injure or offend. So Revelation 2:11: "He that overcomes shall not be done an injustice, wronged, injured or offended by the second death." The difference between the unbeliever and the child of God is that the unbeliever is taken hand and foot and "cast" into the lake of fire, fighting, kicking, screaming, cursing, and resisting all the way, while the child of God willingly and obediently "walks" into God's "refiner's fire" (Malachi 3:2-3) hand in hand with "the Son of God." God IS A CONSUMING FIRE (Hebrews 12:25-29) - And one way or the other, ALL MUST DIE UNTO SIN.

The ludicrous lie of eternal torment in Hell has confused this very simple Truth.

As far as your question, there of course are "HELL ON EARTH" situations, both physically and psychologically. And there are many Scriptural passages which connect hell, either literally or metaphorically, to darkness, restraint, distress, sorrow, suffering, pain, etc. So yes, that situation will indeed be a HELL on Earth. But the idea of "eternal torment" in Hell which the majority of Christendom professes........ The Greatest Lie Ever Told! And the greatest evil ever conceived.
 
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Separation from God is an impossibility in its conception. The only LIFE that exists is God, so a person cannot be separated from God and be conscious or alive in any way. Without the presence of God, a physical person (or any living organism) would be a lifeless mass of inorganic matter. And the Spirit is the very essence of God Himself. The idea of a "literal separation" from God is a careless religious concept conceived "in haste" in an effort to "cushion" the idea of eternal torment in the fires of Hell.

And if eternal punishment were true, God Himself would also have to be present within someone who is in Hell, because there is NO LIFE apart from Him. He alone is immortal (eternal), so only God Himself could be eternally tormented.

I kinda think you made my point
 
Death is death. No conscious, no awareness , no feelings , no recognition of anything around you. The second death is no return, the complete end of ones existance where his spirit is also extinguished. A permanent separartion from God is not to exist. When God kicked satan out of the house he could not return but was given a time to prove himself before those he bragged to. And it will show his full arrogance. Afterwards satan will destroy himself trying to exist higher then He. I look at certain dictators, Sadam H., David Coresh, Jim Jones, etc., and they brought on their own demise playing God. We will never hear from them again. Oh wait, I think they'll be resurrected to fight along with the devil in the last stand. Well, thanks, guys. I really appreciate the info. We will know soon enough.
 
Aion come sin different forms

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/CONGRK16.htm#S165

It's not as simple as saying "Oh here it mans Age", "The Aion" is sometimes used of all time form Beginning to End.

Eternity is not a period of time, it's outside Time altogether. Hades currently is temporary, Gehena aka The Lake of Fire is the 2nd Death. It is NOT "Eternal Separation form God" as some insist, Gehena is what happens when an unredeemed soul enters the true Presence of God.

My issue with Denying the Eternity of Hell is what's the point of Salvation then? If their being Saved from only a temporary salvation then not being Saved is really only an inconvenience.
 
Originally posted by eduardo,

"Death is death. No conscious, no awareness , no feelings , no recognition of anything around you. The second death is no return, the complete end of ones existance where his spirit is also extinguished."

Unfortunately, most of Christendom has a very narrow view of death. They believe death is either the biological body/organs ceasing to function, or they believe death is annihilation; i.e. - being erased from existence. Ironically, the Scriptures rarely mention either one of those two definitions of death. Death is much more than this. The precise definition of death is given by God Himself :

"For to be carnally minded IS DEATH; but to be spiritually minded IS LIFE and peace" (Romans 8:6).

This is the process of death, descending from the purity of the realm of the spiritual, to awaken to the realm of the flesh, to mind the things of the flesh. And as long as we remain carnally minded, we remain in the state of death. It is not speaking of dead bodies, or being erased from existence, but of a dead-consciousness of God. Those who are not in any sense conscious of God, or His life, or what God is doing about them. They know not God or His will or His work, it is as foreign to them as though they were far away in some other part of God's universe. The sad part of it is that many of the dead are professing Christians.

The apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesians and said, "Awake you that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give you light." Were these words directed to bodies in the cemetery? No. It was written to professed Christians in the Church at Ephesus. Death is not so much concerned with the fleshly body as with the consciousness of God's life.

"And you - who were DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Ephesians 2:1-3).

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23), "...and DEATH has passed upon ALL MEN, for that ALL HAVE SINNED."

The mystery of iniquity (sin) has brought every man into the death of the carnal mind, terminating our consciousness of the spiritual realm, and causing us to become very self conscious in the flesh realm. Anybody apart from God in Christ is dead.

"He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" ( I John 5:12).

Not grasping the Scriptural meaning of death is one of the main reasons most of Christianity comes up with ridiculous theories about "so-called" hell.
 
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Originally posted by MithrandirOlorin,

My issue with Denying the Eternity of Hell is what's the point of Salvation then? If their being Saved from only a temporary salvation then not being Saved is really only an inconvenience.

Going back to the First Age with Olorin, huh? Say hi to Fëanor, Finwë, and the rest of the Noldor for me. And tell Melkor to chill :D.

As far as your question; "What's the point of Salvation then?" I'm surprised a Maia with your wisdom and experience would ask such a silly question. Do you really think that if Jesus just got rid of the hell you believe in, then He wouldn't have to save us from ANYTHING. Are you serious? There are many things from which all people need to be saved, but I assure you that "eternal torment in hell" is NOT one of them.

Why don't you just believe the Scriptures? Wouldn't it be a great thing if we were saved from ourselves, vanity, hatred, prejudice, filthy language, laziness, greed, stupidity, egotism, megalomania, haughtiness, sickness, poverty, fear, pain, suffering, disease, hopelessness, lust, pride, worldliness, selfishness, lasciviousness, materialism, idolatry, addiction, etc.? I am sure that we are all guilty of at least some of these character flaws. There is much in man from which he needs saving, BUT THE HEATHEN'S GRUESOME HELL IS NOT ONE OF THEM!

Nowhere - not once, are we told anywhere in the entirety of the Bible that Jesus came to save us from some Satanic hellhole of eternal torture in fire - AKA the Christian "hell."


Here are two (of many) major things we need to be saved from:

1. SIN AND DEATH

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of SIN and DEATH." (Rom. 8:2)

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call His name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their SINS" (Matt. 1:21)

"And He shall redeem [save] Israel from all his INIQUITIES [Heb. 'evil/SIN']"(Psalm 130:8)

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem [save] us from all INIQUITY [Gk: 'evil/SIN]" (Titus 2:14)

"Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name: and deliver us [deliver means 'save'], and purge away our SINS, for Thy name's sake" (Psa. 79:9)

"But God will redeem ['rescue/save] my soul from the power of the GRAVE [Heb: 'sheol' -- Gk: 'hades', the state of the dead']" (Psalm 49:15)

"Who delivered us from so great a DEATH, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that He will yet deliver us" (2 Cor. 1:10)

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from DEATH: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction..." (Hosea 13:14).




2. UNBELIEF

"So we see that they [the Children of Israel] could not enter in [the promised land] because of unbelief" (Heb. 3:19)

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12)

"Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen" (Mark 16:14)

"Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD God" (2 Kings 17:14)




This is not the science of creating Silmarils Olorin. ALL have sinned and ALL are lost. Therefore, Jesus came to save ALL of the lost sinners. People who ask me; "What's the point of Salvation if there is no eternal hell" are suspect to me. It makes me think that this person has no true love for God, but is serving Him only out of fear of going to hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant. I hope that is not the case with you my fellow Maia. :wink3
 
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