When Christ obtained "eternal redemption" He saved everyone who believes from the foundation of the world

[Alfred Persson]

You're reading into the Heb 9:27-28 your own idea that some will have a second chance after death, but that is nowhere mentioned or implied in Scripture. There is a parallelism going on that you are completely overlooking, as I have pointed out previously.

I'm redoing my argument on Ps. 49:15 and I thought of you, your claim repetance in sheol would have no effect on God's choice to redeem.

God does not redeem indiscriminately; He receives those who approach Him with sincerity.

13 This is the way of those who are foolish, And of those after them who approve their words. Selah.
14 As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. (Ps. 49:13-15 NAS)

The way of the foolish is the "second death", the undying consuming worm infesting the abominable resurrection body (Mark 9:43-50).

But God redeems the psalmist "for He will receive (<03947> לָקַח laqach) me". The Hebrew laqach denotes "accepting what is offered". In context, the psalmist manifests the "way of those who are wise" and essential to that way, is both faith in God and a repentant heart.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise. (Ps. 51:17 NKJ)

Therefore, Psalm 49:15 implies God's acceptance and subsequent redemption was contigent upon the plea of the pslamist who was wise enough to know God will not despise the one who is repentant.

 

[Vinny37]

No thanks. I like the text just like it is. If I were tampon Tim I might have a different opinion. But I am not.

OK, you're a man and salvation is only for men. I got it. Still, fishers of men sounds fishy to me in today's terms. Is the Greek really gender and age specific on such texts?

 

[Alfred Persson]

OK, you're a man and salvation is only for men. I got it. Still, fishers of men sounds fishy to me in today's terms. Is the Greek really gender and age specific on such texts?

For thousands of years everyone understood "he" is most contexts includes women. I see no reason for losing that knowledge. I see many reasons why I won't tamper with Scripture and change its wording.

If I am disinvited to all the gender neutral parties and rallies, I'll live with that. Take it like man.

 

[Free]

You accuse me of what you do. I can't find a version that reads "to save thoe who are eagly waiting":

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

By altering the text you prove your interpretation is eisegesis.

So, even though I quoted it HERE and gave ESV as the translation, and you then quoted that post, you still "can't find a version the reads" as I have given? Here it is again:

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

That isn't much different from the NIV:

Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (NIV)

Or the NASB:

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (NASB)

Or the NKJV. They all say the same thing.

Of course, my point was not the wording, but that you are taking "salvation" to mean "justification," without any warrant for doing so.

Christ dealt with sin by His sacrifice, I never said He returns to deal with it again. You misunderstand my argument.

I don't think I have misunderstood. I know what you have and haven't said. My point clearly is that "Your interpretation is precluded, as your interpretation means he is returning to deal with sin." Or, 'To say that those waiting for Christ are unbelievers awaiting salvation, then that means Christ would be returning "to deal with sin," which contradicts the verse.'

That is your position, is it not, that Christ will return to justify unbelievers? If so, that is returning to deal with sin.

The text cannot refer to be people who are alive at his coming because they have "died once" and then undergo "Judgment".

When you read this, you assume its talking about people in general, alive and dead.

This is why I insist on the word "Insasmuch", it is "causal". In other words, Jesus is sacrificing Himself BECAUSE men die once and then are judged. Christ does this to SAVE some of those being judged, "to bear the sins of many". To those who were judged covered by Christ's sacrifice, who now eagerly wait in Hades for His second coming, He will come to save them from Hades:

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:26-28 NAS)

Yes, it can and does refer to both the living and non-living. Again, you're making a connection between verses 27 and 28 that simply isn't there. There is nothing in the text that even suggests that unbelievers who are judged are those whom Christ is coming to save. That is you reading into the text. There is parallelism going on that you're not taking into account.

I gave several other passages that show that Christians do and are supposed to wait eagerly for the return of Christ, to complete our salvation.

 

[Free]

You were, but now you seem to be backing away from that.

No, I wasn't, and no I'm not. I haven't changed anything in my position.

However, I can agree with everything (generally) you said except the bolded words. You are reading that into the text.

No, that is literally what the passage is saying. Again, you are making a false connection between "the judgement" and those who eagerly await their salvation from Christ.

The text (in effect) says "the many" judged covered by Christ's sacrfice eagerly wait for Christ's second coming FOR SALVATION from death.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:26-28 NAS)

The people "eagerly" waiting for Christ, are still dead. They died once. Nothing says they were raised up from the dead. They are still in Hades "eagerly" waiting for Christ's second coming, to rise from the dead with the church (1 Thess. 4:14ff).

You are reading far too much into these verses. The people "who are eagerly waiting for him" are all believers who have ever been alive and those who will be alive when he returns. It's simply all believers, because that is our hope:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (ESV)

 

[Free]

Like the atheist who dismisses every proof a miracle occurs, and then points to his "investigation" as proof miracles don't occur, so is "that is nowhere mentioned or implied in Scripture":

A Survey of Scriptures Supporting Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation​

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

And, as I've pointed out before in addressing many or most of these passages, not a single one even as much as implies a "postmortem opportunity for salvation." Again, if that is the case, the Bible is completely and utterly silent on the matter. One has to fallaciously beg the question on all those verses and passages to make them support such an idea.

I'm redoing my argument on Ps. 49:15 and I thought of you, your claim repetance in sheol would have no effect on God's choice to redeem.

God does not redeem indiscriminately; He receives those who approach Him with sincerity.

13 This is the way of those who are foolish, And of those after them who approve their words. Selah.
14 As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. (Ps. 49:13-15 NAS)

The way of the foolish is the "second death", the undying consuming worm infesting the abominable resurrection body (Mark 9:43-50).

But God redeems the psalmist "for He will receive (<03947> לָקַח laqach) me". The Hebrew laqach denotes "accepting what is offered". In context, the psalmist manifests the "way of those who are wise" and essential to that way, is both faith in God and a repentant heart.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise. (Ps. 51:17 NKJ)

Therefore, Psalm 49:15 implies God's acceptance and subsequent redemption was contigent upon the plea of the pslamist who was wise enough to know God will not despise the one who is repentant.

Redo your argument all you want, but you are completely misinterpreting this passage by assuming the very thing you think it proves. You don't seem to understand how to properly understand different genres in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech.

 

[Alfred Persson]

And, as I've pointed out before in addressing many or most of these passages, not a single one even as much as implies a "postmortem opportunity for salvation." Again, if that is the case, the Bible is completely and utterly silent on the matter. One has to fallaciously beg the question on all those verses and passages to make them support such an idea.


Redo your argument all you want, but you are completely misinterpreting this passage by assuming the very thing you think it proves. You don't seem to understand how to properly understand different genres in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech.

I still wait for your proof of such claims. Its been a long wait.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, I wasn't, and no I'm not. I haven't changed anything in my position.


No, that is literally what the passage is saying. Again, you are making a false connection between "the judgement" and those who eagerly await their salvation from Christ.


You are reading far too much into these verses. The people "who are eagerly waiting for him" are all believers who have ever been alive and those who will be alive when he returns. It's simply all believers, because that is our hope:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (ESV)

Incorrect. I am reading what you avoid by citing irrelevant texts.

The text you should cite, which plainly says Christians will not participate in a Judgment about their salvation, is never discussed:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (KRISIS), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

And, as I've pointed out before in addressing many or most of these passages, not a single one even as much as implies a "postmortem opportunity for salvation." Again, if that is the case, the Bible is completely and utterly silent on the matter. One has to fallaciously beg the question on all those verses and passages to make them support such an idea.


Redo your argument all you want, but you are completely misinterpreting this passage by assuming the very thing you think it proves. You don't seem to understand how to properly understand different genres in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech.

Ths psalmist clearly says God received him, that is why he was redeemed from Sheol. God receives the repentant and contrite, not the wicked. That is why the psalmist was not on the "way of the foolish".

The only one begging the question is you.

 

[Free]

I still wait for your proof of such claims. Its been a long wait.

No, I did it and you know it. I even provided you somewhat recently with a link to where I did it. Please be honest in your discussions.

I'm going to step out of this one. Nothing good will come of it. Your position is nowhere even implied in Scripture and nothing will convince you otherwise. Too bad.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, I did it and you know it. I even provided you somewhat recently with a link to where I did it. Please be honest in your discussions.

I'm going to step out of this one. Nothing good will come of it. Your position is nowhere even implied in Scripture and nothing will convince you otherwise. Too bad.

Yes, you provided a link. In reply, I give you history:

The question of whether early Christian writers interpreted 1 Peter 4:6 as indicating that the gospel was preached to the dead in the first few centuries of Christianity. Here's an overview:

​

1. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)​

• Clement of Alexandria is one of the earliest writers to refer to the preaching of the gospel to the dead. He interprets 1 Peter 4:6 as indicating that Christ preached to souls in Hades. In his work Stromata, Clement describes how the gospel was preached to all those who had died prior to Christ's coming, offering them the same opportunity for salvation that was offered to the living.

2. Origen (c. 185–253 AD)​

• Origen, a prominent early Christian theologian, also believed that Christ descended to the dead to preach to the souls in Hades. In his commentary on 1 Peter and other works, Origen interprets this passage to mean that the gospel was preached to those who had not had the chance to hear it during their earthly lives. He connects this with the broader concept of the "harrowing of hell," where Christ’s descent offered salvation to the righteous dead.

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)​

• Irenaeus touches on the concept in his Against Heresies. While he does not focus specifically on 1 Peter 4:6, he does affirm the idea that Christ descended to the place of the dead (or Hades) and liberated the righteous souls. Irenaeus views this as part of Christ’s mission to bring salvation to all, including those who had died before His incarnation.

4. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD)​

• In Hippolytus’ commentary and works, he reflects on the early Christian belief in Christ's descent to the dead, a concept rooted in passages like 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Peter 3:19, which describes Christ proclaiming to "spirits in prison." Hippolytus emphasizes that this was an act of salvation extended even to those who had already died, a view consistent with the interpretation that the gospel was preached to the dead.

5. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD)​

• Tertullian, while somewhat ambiguous, seems to acknowledge in On the Soul that Christ’s descent involved preaching to souls in Hades. Though Tertullian is more conservative in interpreting the specifics of who could be saved posthumously, he does connect this event with God’s justice and mercy in offering salvation universally.

6. Athanasius (c. 296–373 AD)​

• Athanasius does not provide an extensive commentary on 1 Peter 4:6, but he does affirm in On the Incarnation the early church’s belief in Christ’s descent to Hades. Athanasius argues that Christ’s work extended to all realms, including the underworld, which aligns with the view that the gospel’s power reached even the dead.

7. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–395 AD)​

• Gregory of Nyssa was among those who supported the interpretation that the gospel reached the dead. In his Oratio Catechetica, he explains how Christ's redemptive work was cosmic and extended to all, even to those who had died. Gregory sees this as a testament to God’s mercy and justice, a view that echoes the interpretation of 1 Peter 4:6.

8. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340–397 AD)​

• Ambrose comments on the idea of Christ’s descent in his sermons and writings. He interprets it as an act of salvation for those who had died in righteousness but without knowledge of Christ, thus resonating with 1 Peter 4:6’s message of the gospel being preached to the dead.

Summary of Early Interpretations​

Most early church fathers interpreted 1 Peter 4:6 as affirming that Christ's salvation work included the realm of the dead. This was often linked with the "harrowing of hell," where Christ descended to Hades and preached to the righteous dead, offering them the opportunity for redemption. This view illustrates early Christianity’s broad understanding of salvation as inclusive and universal, extending even to those who had passed away before the revelation of Christ.

Conclusion​

Yes, 1 Peter 4:6 was cited by early Christian writers as teaching that the gospel was, in some form, preached to the dead. This interpretation was part of a broader understanding in early Christianity that emphasized the universality of Christ’s salvific mission, even extending to those who had died without knowing the gospel.
For further exploration, see works such as Stromata by Clement of Alexandria, On the Soul by Tertullian, and Oratio Catechetica by Gregory of Nyssa, where these themes are discussed in detail.