When Christ obtained "eternal redemption" He saved everyone who believes from the foundation of the world

[Alfred Persson]

The word perfect doesn’t mean sinless, but complete.


Here is what the Judgement for Christian’s looks like.


“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Here are the two options Christian’s will hear at the Judgement seat of Christ -

1. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

2. Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

​

Paul says it this way -​

​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11​

​

• Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

The text puts the judgment of the sheep and goats AT Christ's second coming, not after the millennial kingdom.

The context (Ten Virgins Mt. 25:1-13; "Servants" Mt. 25:14-30) implies the Sheep and Goats are uncommitted members of Christendom, those who went to church but were not converted. Some of them practiced Christianity which indicates they eventually would have become born again Christians. Others proved they were TARES having no emphathy for those needing help. Therefore, "the nations" gathered that day are Christians from all nations. Judgment begins first with the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17).

Nothing about the resurrection of the dead, Great White Throne, appear here because this isn't Judgment Day. Its a day when Christ begins cleansing the earth of all the wicked, including those who call themselves Christian but are not.

 

[Free]

The New American Standard also renders καὶ καθ᾽ ὅσον "And inasmuch". This links what is said about Christ to what is said about mankind in general. "Inasmuch" is causal, Jesus did what He did BECAUSE its appointed men die and are judged.

To me, everyone (not just you) are reading into this a "The Final judgment" when neither words "final" or definite article "the" appear.

Right, but it doesn't really matter either way, as I pointed out. The reality is the same; the end result is the same. One chance in this life, then comes judgement.

Moroever, everyone is violating parsimony. They use "judgment" equivocally to mean a "glorification of believers" and not about salvation but then it is deciding the salvation of others. The context implies this judgment is about salvation, not glorification. It doesn't say "To those who eagerly wait He will appear a second time...for glorification".

Glorification is salvation, as I explained. The NT uses three different words or ideas in speaking of salvation in speaking of salvation as past, present, and future realities. It all begins at justification, continues with sanctification, which all leads to glorification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
…
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, (ESV)

1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. (ESV)

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (ESV)

2Co 4:17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, (ESV)

Many in Christendom (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant [Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists,Reformed, Presbyterian] believe there is a "Particular Judgment" that occurs immediately after death, as it did with the Rich Man in Christ's parable.

After life is done, there is no living it over again a few more times; what awaits each one at death is God’s verdict, either acquittal or condemnation; κρίσις is a vox media.
To say that this pronouncement of judgment comes only at the time of the final judgment at the end of the world contradicts Scripture. No one needs to wait until the last day to know God’s verdict; he receives it at the instant of death. Death also at once places his soul into either heaven or hell; the verdict is executed at once. To think of anything else erases the correspondence with Christ’s death, for he does not wait until the last day to learn God’s judgment regarding his sacrifice.-Lenski, R. C. H. (1938). The interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James (p. 319). Lutheran Book Concern.

I cite Lenski only for support about this being a "particular judgment". He is wrong to make it a "final judgment", the symbol of the "book of life" shows some rise from Hades into life, and only those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15 compare John 5:28-29).

The context rules out applying this to the final judgment, because after the judgment "those who eagerly wait...He will appear a second time" chronologically positions these "waiters" no later than Christ's Second Coming which is before the Final Judgment that happens AFTER His coming and AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The Judgement happens at the second coming, but when one dies, their position in Christ or lack thereof, determines where they go at death as well as their final destination at the Judgement. It cannot be otherwise, just as those who are not in Christ at his return will have no chance to repent and those who are in him will go to be with him forever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Right, but it doesn't really matter either way, as I pointed out. The reality is the same; the end result is the same. One chance in this life, then comes judgement.


Glorification is salvation, as I explained. The NT uses three different words or ideas in speaking of salvation in speaking of salvation as past, present, and future realities. It all begins at justification, continues with sanctification, which all leads to glorification.

Even your reply proves these are different phases of salvation and not the same thing. You cannot say:

"It all begins at SALVATION, continues with SALVATION, which all leads to SALVATION."

They are NOT the same thing. In Romans 8:30 Paul reveals the sequence:

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30 NKJ)

Being "glorified" is an aspect of salvation, but it isn't the same as salvation.

When Hebrews says Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgment, they are eagerly waiting for Him,its for "salvation". They are glorified when they are changed in a twinkling of any eye and raised from the dead.

Therefore, my objection to the "common interpretation" remains, its guilty of equivocation and is a violation of parsimony.

The "classic interpretaton" you defend forgets an important point, Christians are saved to the uttermost BEFORE they die once, they will NOT come under KRISIS Judgment which is what the judgment in Hebrews 9:27 is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That is why "those who eagerly wait for Christ" can't be Christians, they are waiting "for salvation":

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment(2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:27-28 NAS)

Christians eagerly wait for Christ now, while we are living. When we die we go into the presence of the LORD, not to a judgment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I've updated my argument on this, here:

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

 

[Vinny37]

I've updated my argument on this, here:

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

I suggest updating your sageism language. It is appointed unto many children (not men) and women (not men) once to die. Only a thought.

 

[Free]

Even your reply proves these are different phases of salvation and not the same thing. You cannot say:

"It all begins at SALVATION, continues with SALVATION, which all leads to SALVATION."

They are NOT the same thing. In Romans 8:30 Paul reveals the sequence:

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30 NKJ)

Being "glorified" is an aspect of salvation, but it isn't the same as salvation.

Which is what I said: "Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as justification (a one-time, completed past event that assures salvation), sanctification (both as a one-time event and ongoing growth in holiness), and glorification (when salvation is final, when believers are with Jesus in heaven)." They're all aspects of the one salvation, spoken of as a past, present and ongoing, and future realities.

https://www.challies.com/articles/salvation-a-past-present-future-reality/

When Hebrews says Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgment, they are eagerly waiting for Him,its for "salvation". They are glorified when they are changed in a twinkling of any eye and raised from the dead.

The idea that "Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgement," is explained by "not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." You don't seem to understand that those who pass the "judgement" are believers, those who put their faith in Christ prior to their death. That is the only way to pass the judgement.

To say that those waiting for Christ are unbelievers awaiting salvation, then that means Christ would be returning "to deal with sin," which contradicts the verse. It is believers, those who either died as believers or those who are alive as believers that look eagerly look forward to his return. As I said, it is when our bodies will be changed and made incorruptible. This is when believers will finally be free of sin, temptations, all manner of evil, pain, etc.

Therefore, my objection to the "common interpretation" remains, its guilty of equivocation and is a violation of parsimony.

Where exactly is the equivocation?

The "classic interpretaton" you defend forgets an important point, Christians are saved to the uttermost BEFORE they die once, they will NOT come under KRISIS Judgment which is what the judgment in Hebrews 9:27 is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That is why "those who eagerly wait for Christ" can't be Christians, they are waiting "for salvation":

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment(2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:27-28 NAS)

Christians eagerly wait for Christ now, while we are living. When we die we go into the presence of the LORD, not to a judgment.

That is the judgement. When a judge renders a judgement, it might be a favorable judgement, but it might not; it's simply a judgement. When one dies as a believer, the judgement is to be with Christ; when one dies as an unbeliever, the judgement is to be without Christ. It's about finding out one's destiny the moment one dies.

Why do you think "to save" or "for salvation" only refers to justification? Why can't it refer to glorification, especially since it is only believers who could possibly be "those who are eagerly waiting for him"? Hasn't the hope of all believers since the beginning been the return of Christ?

 

[JLB]

Therefore, "the nations" gathered that day are Christians from all nations.

Yes, all standing before His throne are Christians.

The wicked have been removed.

Note the context -

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11

 

[Alfred Persson]

Which is what I said: "Salvation is spoken of in Scripture as justification (a one-time, completed past event that assures salvation), sanctification (both as a one-time event and ongoing growth in holiness), and glorification (when salvation is final, when believers are with Jesus in heaven)." They're all aspects of the one salvation, spoken of as a past, present and ongoing, and future realities.

https://www.challies.com/articles/salvation-a-past-present-future-reality/


The idea that "Christ returns a second time to those who passed the judgement," is explained by "not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." You don't seem to understand that those who pass the "judgement" are believers, those who put their faith in Christ prior to their death. That is the only way to pass the judgement.

To say that those waiting for Christ are unbelievers awaiting salvation, then that means Christ would be returning "to deal with sin," which contradicts the verse. It is believers, those who either died as believers or those who are alive as believers that look eagerly look forward to his return. As I said, it is when our bodies will be changed and made incorruptible. This is when believers will finally be free of sin, temptations, all manner of evil, pain, etc.


Where exactly is the equivocation?


That is the judgement. When a judge renders a judgement, it might be a favorable judgement, but it might not; it's simply a judgement. When one dies as a believer, the judgement is to be with Christ; when one dies as an unbeliever, the judgement is to be without Christ. It's about finding out one's destiny the moment one dies.

Why do you think "to save" or "for salvation" only refers to justification? Why can't it refer to glorification, especially since it is only believers who could possibly be "those who are eagerly waiting for him"? Hasn't the hope of all believers since the beginning been the return of Christ?

Again you prove salvation is not glorification, which is required for your interpretation. Christ returns, apart from sin, to save those eagerly waiting. Not to glorify them although that happens later, presumably.

The text is talking about people AFTER the judgment. Your interpretation refers to people alive BEFORE their judgment.

The equivocatino is using KRISIS judgment to mean a condemnation of the wicked, and glorification of saved people. The judgments are not the same, that is equivocation. Using the same word KRISIS to mean two different things.

AND you ignore entirely Christ's statement believers do NOT endure a KRISIS judgment that might condemn them. So this can't be a judgment that condemns unbelievers yet glorifies believers:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That Christians have already passed the "krisis judgment" whether they will live or not, is present in Paul's statement:

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; (2 Thess. 1:4-5 NKJ)

God's judgment Christians pass from death into eternal life is confirmed by the faith these manifested.

The Judgment in Hebrew 9:27 is a verdict whether these are among the "many" Christ "eternally redeemed":

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Christians believed before they died once, and so have passed from death into life and do not come under that kind of KRISIS judgment.

The text says Christ appears a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Whose salvation? Those who eagerly wait for Him AFTER they died. The implication these are raised up from Hades is clear.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, all standing before His throne are Christians.

The wicked have been removed.

Note the context -

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11

That conflates different events. The Sheep and Goat judgment happens first, before all other judgments. AND the raptured church is seated with Christ during this judgment of Churchgoers, Jesus points to them and calls them "these my brethren":

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

The church was raptured and returned to earth with Christ and His Holy angels, as Christ's Kings and Priests His brethren. They are NOT the sheep being judged, they already are saved.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I suggest updating your sageism language. It is appointed unto many children (not men) and women (not men) once to die. Only a thought.

No thanks. I like the text just like it is. If I were tampon Tim I might have a different opinion. But I am not.

 

[JLB]

That conflates different events. The Sheep and Goat judgment happens first, before all other judgments. AND the raptured church is seated with Christ during this judgment of Churchgoers, Jesus points to them and calls them "these my brethren":

Paul is writing to the Church in Corinth.

He is speaking and referring to believers.


Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11


Please point out where sheep and goats are mentioned here.

 

[JLB]

That conflates different events. The Sheep and Goat judgment happens first, before all other judgments. AND the raptured church is seated with Christ during this judgment of Churchgoers, Jesus points to them and calls them "these my brethren":

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

The church was raptured and returned to earth with Christ and His Holy angels, as Christ's Kings and Priests His brethren. They are NOT the sheep being judged, they already are saved.

The context of Verses 31-46 is clear.

Jesus gives parables about His people in different ways.

Read them yourself and you will see clearly what the Judgement seat and who is being judged.


Parable of His servants -

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?

• Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.

• But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke says it this way

• But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the explanation of those parables.

 

[Free]

Again you prove salvation is not glorification, which is required for your interpretation. Christ returns, apart from sin, to save those eagerly waiting. Not to glorify them although that happens later, presumably.

The thing is, glorification is an aspect of salvation that fully fits the context. Justification in no way fits the context, as I've pointed out.

The text is talking about people AFTER the judgment.

Yes, exactly, and it clearly states that at Christ's return, it will not be "to deal with sin." Your interpretation is precluded, as your interpretation means he is returning to deal with sin.

Your interpretation refers to people alive BEFORE their judgment.

No, my interpretation refers to people both before their judgement, since some will be alive when he returns, and after their judgement, since many will be dead when he returns. Your interpretation ignores the fact that many will be alive when Christ returns.

The equivocatino is using KRISIS judgment to mean a condemnation of the wicked, and glorification of saved people. The judgments are not the same, that is equivocation. Using the same word KRISIS to mean two different things.

I'm not equivocating. Please go back and re-read, or read, what I wrote. There are three possibilities of what "judgement" is referring to: judgement immediate upon death or the final judgement or both. Either way, the judgement is based on whether or not one as put their faith in Christ in this life, whether or not they are justified.

As I stated before, if it is referring to immediate judgement upon death, then it is simply whether one goes to be with Christ or not, and has nothing to do with glorification. That is the judgement rendered. For some reason, you can't understand that a judgement is just that, a judgement, and it will be either in favor of "with Christ" or in favor of "not with Christ."

If it is referring to the final judgement, then a person who was justified in this life will receive their glorified body and go to be with Christ; a person who was not justified in this life will spend eternity apart from Christ.

Regardless, as I previously stated, the end result is the same. A person's final destination is determined based on their position in Christ or lack thereof at the point of death. A person not justified in this life will be apart from Christ immediately after they die and they will remain without him forever.

AND you ignore entirely Christ's statement believers do NOT endure a KRISIS judgment that might condemn them.

Nope. It's only because you're not understanding what a "judgement" is. A judgement can be "guilty" but it can also be "not guilty;" it can be freeing or condemning. It's just a decision about the state of something based on the evidence.

So this can't be a judgment that condemns unbelievers yet glorifies believers:

If it is the judgement that occurs immediately after death, then no, it doesn't glorify believers, and I never said such. If it is the final judgement, then believers are already in their glorified bodies.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

That Christians have already passed the "krisis judgment" whether they will live or not, is present in Paul's statement:

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,
5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; (2 Thess. 1:4-5 NKJ)

God's judgment Christians pass from death into eternal life is confirmed by the faith these manifested.

Of course. I have never stated otherwise.

The Judgment in Hebrew 9:27 is a verdict whether these are among the "many" Christ "eternally redeemed":

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Christians believed before they died once, and so have passed from death into life and do not come under that kind of KRISIS judgment.

Okay, if you want to say that the judgement in verse 27 has nothing to do with believers, fine. But, it still in no way supports any idea that at least some unbelievers will have a chance to believe after they die. The whole point of verse 27 is that judgement occurs after death, which happens once. If the judgement is that one is not a believer, then that is final for eternity. There is no way around that.

Whose salvation? Those who eagerly wait for Him AFTER they died. The implication these are raised up from Hades is clear.

Not at all. You have to read all of that into the text. All those who are eagerly waiting for Christ are believers, both alive and dead. Everyone who professes to be a believer should be eagerly waiting for the return of Christ. If not, they may not be a believer.

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (ESV)

1Co 1:7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 1:8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. (ESV)

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (ESV)

Heb 10:25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. (ESV)

That is what the writer of Hebrews is referring to in 9:28 by "to save those eagerly waiting for him."

 

[Alfred Persson]

The thing is, glorification is an aspect of salvation that fully fits the context. Justification in no way fits the context, as I've pointed out.

Your reply is too long, I'll respond to parts of it.. My time is limited. Justification=salvation (Rom. 8:29f), the text says Christ returns after the judgment to those who eagerly wait...for salvation.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

It may not fit the context of YOUR interpretation, but "salvation" is in the context.

Your interpretation requires it read "glorification" but then it wouldn't apply to those who fail the judgment, which proves your interpretation equivocates, using "judgment" in two different senses.

That's the facts. Your interpretatrion reads into this what isn't there. There are no Christians being judged in this context, Christ said so:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

We don't have to die to be judged, we already have eternal life, are already saved. We will be glorified at the rapture/resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ's coming.

 

[Free]

Your reply is too long,

Well, that's one way to avoid dealing with certain things. Seems to happen a lot on these forums.

I'll respond to parts of it.. My time is limited. Justification=salvation (Rom. 8:29f), the text says Christ returns after the judgment to those who eagerly wait...for salvation.

No, it says that Christ comes "to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Not "those who eagerly wait...for salvation." You're putting the cart before the horse in an attempt to make these verses fit your doctrine. By definition, "those who are eagerly waiting for him" are only going to be believers, whether dead or alive. I've given plenty of passages that show this to be the case.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

It may not fit the context of YOUR interpretation, but "salvation" is in the context.

As I've explained more than once, it fits "my" interpretation just fine, but it contradicts yours. He is coming "a second time, apart from sin," which means he is not coming to save the unbeliever, otherwise he would be coming to deal with sin.

Your interpretation requires it read "glorification" but then it wouldn't apply to those who fail the judgment, which proves your interpretation equivocates, using "judgment" in two different senses.

No, my position in no way whatsoever equivocates. You're falsely equating those who face "judgement" with saving "those who are eagerly waiting for him." That is not what is being spoken of. You simply do not understand that the passage is clearly stating that men are to die once and then comes judgement--their final destination is now fixed; judgement has been rendered.

Christ then comes to once and for all remove believers from this sinful world, as those are the only ones "who are eagerly waiting for him."

That's the facts. Your interpretatrion reads into this what isn't there. There are no Christians being judged in this context, Christ said so:

You're reading into the Heb 9:27-28 your own idea that some will have a second chance after death, but that is nowhere mentioned or implied in Scripture. There is a parallelism going on that you are completely overlooking, as I have pointed out previously.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)


We don't have to die to be judged, we already have eternal life, are already saved. We will be glorified at the rapture/resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ's coming.

Of course, and that is what Heb 9:28 is referring to.

 

[JLB]

We will be glorified at the rapture/resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ's coming.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, it says that Christ comes "to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Not "those who eagerly wait...for salvation." You're putting the cart before the horse in an attempt to make these verses fit your doctrine.

You accuse me of what you do. I can't find a version that reads "to save thoe who are eagly waiting":

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:28 NKJ)

By altering the text you prove your interpretation is eisegesis.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, exactly, and it clearly states that at Christ's return, it will not be "to deal with sin." Your interpretation is precluded, as your interpretation means he is returning to deal with sin.

No, my interpretation refers to people both before their judgement, since some will be alive when he returns, and after their judgement, since many will be dead when he returns. Your interpretation ignores the fact that many will be alive when Christ returns.

Christ dealt with sin by His sacrifice, I never said He returns to deal with it again. You misunderstand my argument.

The text cannot refer to be people who are alive at his coming because they have "died once" and then undergo "Judgment".

When you read this, you assume its talking about people in general, alive and dead.

This is why I insist on the word "Insasmuch", it is "causal". In other words, Jesus is sacrificing Himself BECAUSE men die once and then are judged. Christ does this to SAVE some of those being judged, "to bear the sins of many". To those who were judged covered by Christ's sacrifice, who now eagerly wait in Hades for His second coming, He will come to save them from Hades:

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:26-28 NAS)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm not equivocating. Please go back and re-read, or read, what I wrote. There are three possibilities of what "judgement" is referring to: judgement immediate upon death or the final judgement or both. Either way, the judgement is based on whether or not one as put their faith in Christ in this life, whether or not they are justified.

As I stated before, if it is referring to immediate judgement upon death, then it is simply whether one goes to be with Christ or not, and has nothing to do with glorification. That is the judgement rendered. For some reason, you can't understand that a judgement is just that, a judgement, and it will be either in favor of "with Christ" or in favor of "not with Christ."

If it is referring to the final judgement, then a person who was justified in this life will receive their glorified body and go to be with Christ; a person who was not justified in this life will spend eternity apart from Christ.

Regardless, as I previously stated, the end result is the same. A person's final destination is determined based on their position in Christ or lack thereof at the point of death. A person not justified in this life will be apart from Christ immediately after they die and they will remain without him forever.

You were, but now you seem to be backing away from that. However, I can agree with everything (generally) you said except the bolded words. You are reading that into the text.

The text (in effect) says "the many" judged covered by Christ's sacrfice eagerly wait for Christ's second coming FOR SALVATION from death.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Heb. 9:26-28 NAS)

The people "eagerly" waiting for Christ, are still dead. They died once. Nothing says they were raised up from the dead. They are still in Hades "eagerly" waiting for Christ's second coming, to rise from the dead with the church (1 Thess. 4:14ff).

 

[Alfred Persson]

You're reading into the Heb 9:27-28 your own idea that some will have a second chance after death, but that is nowhere mentioned or implied in Scripture. There is a parallelism going on that you are completely overlooking, as I have pointed out previously.

Like the atheist who dismisses every proof a miracle occurs, and then points to his "investigation" as proof miracles don't occur, so is "that is nowhere mentioned or implied in Scripture":

A Survey of Scriptures Supporting Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation​

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]