Is hell truly eternal?

[dianegcook]

God is a CONSUMING FIRE.

In Psa.37:20 it reads;
But the wicked shall PERISH, and the enemies of the Lord, shall be as the fat of lambs; they SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE SHALL THEY CONSUME AWAY.
As you know, when one grills out, the "smoke" goes up 4 ever.

As you notice from an earlier post, that THE<u> SMOKE </u>OF THEIR TORMENT, will go up 4 ever.

In Matt.10:28 it states;
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.
DESTROY, PERISH.

I believe the "second death", is the death of the soul, blotted out, as if you never existed.

As in John 3:16
Whosoever believeth in him SHOULD NOT PERISH but have eternal life.

So if you think that one is tormented 4 ever, is that not "eternal life" in hell?
I think not...

 

[eduardo]

ARMAGEDDON



Armageddon is generally thought to be the great final battle on earth. It is also generally thought to be a devastating conflict between armies on the earth, between east and west.


We have shown in our book on the National Sunday Law, which is available for downloading on these web pages, that the only English version of the Bible that can be trusted to be accurate is the King James version. Except for the King James version, all the well-known English translations of the Bible came from corrupted manuscripts such as the Vaticanus Codex B and the Siniaticus. Even the New King James version has been corrupted by these manuscripts. The old King James version is the best version of the Bible that accurately shows what Armageddon is.


The only place in the Bible that mentions Armageddon is Revelation 16, verse 16. Chapter 16 of Revelation describes the Seven Last Plagues, and Armageddon is mentioned in the description of the sixth plague. Let us read the Bible verses that describe the sixth plague.


Revelation 16:12-16: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”


(Our book, Earth’s Final Hours, shows in great detail what the drying up of the river Euphrates means and who the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet are. This entire book is available for downloading on these web pages. A description of the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” can be found on these web pages at How the World Will End.)


Let us now look at Armageddon. Revelation 16:16 says, “He gathered them together into a place called . . . Armageddon.” Some think “Armageddon” means Mount Meggido, but there was never a mountain called by this name. No geographical location was ever known by the name Armageddon. This place called Armageddon, therefore, must be symbolic.


A careful study of verses 14 through 16 will show the meaning of this term clearly. Verse 14 mentions the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Next, verse 15 refers to the righteous: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” Christ is speaking in verse 15, and He personally gives His people a gentle warning to be on their guard when Satan masquerades as Christ. Verse 16 says, “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.” Who does the “he” in this verse refer to? It has to refer to the person who is speaking in the previous verse, the “I” in verse 15. Who does the “them” refer to? It must refer to the righteous about whom Christ is speaking in verse 15. The meaning of verse 16 becomes clear when one realizes who the personal pronouns refer to in this verse. Let us read verse 16 and indicate the proper meaning of these pronouns: “And he (Christ, who spoke in verse 15) gathered them (the righteous of verse 15) together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.” Armageddon, therefore, refers not to the battle of verse 14 but to Christ and the righteous of verse 15.


Armageddon, therefore, are the places all over the world where Christ gathers the righteous to escape the wrath of the wicked and to wait for the return of the Lord. As the persecution over Sunday observance versus Sabbath keeping increases to fearful intensity, the righteous escape to the hills and to the mountains, where they find refuge among the munitions of rocks, as Isaiah 33:15-17 says. “He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defense shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.” The land that is very far off, of course, is heaven.


Armageddon does not refer to a war or to a specific place, but to the hills and mountains and other secluded places all over the world where the righteous gather in small companies to escape the persecution by the wicked and to wait for the return of the Lord. This is why, search as they will, scholars cannot find the specific place called Armageddon.


The devil has a reason for deceiving everyone into thinking that Armageddon is a battle. As he does with every other Bible subject, the devil will have a counterfeit Armageddon, and it will be a battle. Satan will make the world believe that Bible prophecy has been fulfilled by this Counterfeit Battle of Armageddon. This deception about Armageddon will be part of his deception when he masquerades as Christ to make it appear as if Christ has returned at the expected time.


The present terrorism in the world, with the destruction of the World Trade Center's twin towers and the reaction it is producing in the United States and the middle east is probably the beginning of Satan's counterfeit battle of Armageddon. As the world inches toward war with the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction by terroristic nations, the upcoming war could reach massive proportions, including the use of nuclear weapons. The world will call this the Battle of Armageddon.


The seventh plague is the end of the world and the return of Christ.

 

[Randy]

Morbid subject

But I believe God stated the soul that sins will die. Some believe in annihilationism. The 2nd death language includes tormented/torment that suggests to me a continued awareness in their suffering. My thinking/pondering would be can a soul be unmade (destroyed). We don't know about spirit so I can't know that answer but from scripture I don't hold to annihilationism. But the lost in either belief will "perish".

Randy

 

[tim-from-pa]

Morbid subject

But I believe God stated the soul that sins will die. Some believe in annihilationism. The 2nd death language includes tormented/torment that suggests to me a continued awareness in their suffering. My thinking/pondering would be can a soul be unmade (destroyed). We don't know about spirit so I can't know that answer but from scripture I don't hold to annihilationism. But the lost in either belief will "perish".

Randy

Sometimes I think people don't accept the idea that they will be destroyed lest God would be so mad at them for believing He would not torment them forever and ever that he would send such an unbeliever in an eternal hell there just to prove it. So we all say, yeah, I believe in eternal torment while secretly hoping it was not true and also hoping we can slip by God that way.

Some key words I see in your statement are : Suggest, my thinking/pondering, so I can't know, and "perish". The last being in quotes speaks volumes that you have to redefine the world to mean something else, such as eternal torment instead of what it really means, to be fully destroyed.

God's Word speaks clearly on this so you don't have to take suggestions, ponder it, not know it or redefine it. Those words suggest man's reasoning and traditions instead of taking God's Word as it says.

 

[Randy]

Sometimes I think people don't accept the idea that they will be destroyed lest God would be so mad at them for believing He would not torment them forever and ever that he would send such an unbeliever in an eternal hell there just to prove it. So we all say, yeah, I believe in eternal torment while secretly hoping it was not true and also hoping we can slip by God that way.

Some key words I see in your statement are : Suggest, my thinking/pondering, so I can't know, and "perish". The last being in quotes speaks volumes that you have to redefine the world to mean something else, such as eternal torment instead of what it really means, to be fully destroyed.

God's Word speaks clearly on this so you don't have to take suggestions, ponder it, not know it or redefine it. Those words suggest man's reasoning and traditions instead of taking God's Word as it says.

The pondering was on the "why" of continued torment from a loving God. The scripture that speaks of the 2nd death is found in REV. Torment and tormented suggest to me awareness. I have no need to be hardline in that thought. If a soul is tormented in the lake of fire never to rise again I could state they are destroyed but to me our English word "perish" is a better fit.

What is quite clear in scripture to me is that God is a just God and a just God does punish sin. Though such punishment brings no pleasure to God. The Jesus we read of in Rev speaking to the 7 churches didn't seem weak. He gave warnings (as a loving God does) and such warnings are given to the living for their/our "Good" as in choose life.

R.

 

[eduardo]

I'm not serving him out of fear of Hell, since I do not believe Salvation is dependent on my Earthly actions.

But your salvation is pending your earthly actions. We have a choice to follow or not. Be carefull there. Kinda sound like you're letting Jesus wash all your dishes while you wacth the game.;)

 

[John 8:32]

The pondering was on the "why" of continued torment from a loving God. The scripture that speaks of the 2nd death is found in REV. Torment and tormented suggest to me awareness. I have no need to be hardline in that thought. If a soul is tormented in the lake of fire never to rise again I could state they are destroyed but to me our English word "perish" is a better fit.

What is quite clear in scripture to me is that God is a just God and a just God does punish sin. Though such punishment brings no pleasure to God. The Jesus we read of in Rev speaking to the 7 churches didn't seem weak. He gave warnings (as a loving God does) and such warnings are given to the living for their/our "Good" as in choose life.

R.

Just some thinking here but who was responsible for the idea of an immortal soul?

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Nachash, the whispering enchanter, said "you won't surely die" and man has believed it ever since. This is the same character who really will be tormented forever and ever...

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The NIV actually got this one right...


New International Version (©1984)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


New International Version (©1984)
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

International Standard Version (©2008)
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And their Seducer, The Devil, was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone where The Beast and The False Prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for the eternity of eternities.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Several translations say where they are, and yes they are there, but they are not alive. They have been burned to ashes, the reward of the wicked...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Add to this...

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

What is a star?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[eduardo]

Just some thinking here but who was responsible for the idea of an immortal soul?

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Nachash, the whispering enchanter, said "you won't surely die" and man has believed it ever since. This is the same character who really will be tormented forever and ever...

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The NIV actually got this one right...


New International Version (©1984)

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


New International Version (©1984)
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

International Standard Version (©2008)
and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And their Seducer, The Devil, was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone where The Beast and The False Prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for the eternity of eternities.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Several translations say where they are, and yes they are there, but they are not alive. They have been burned to ashes, the reward of the wicked...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Add to this...

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

What is a star?

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Outstanding! Two things stick out at me in each of these rewritten scriptures. Day and Night and Treading Ashes under our feet. Hell would have to have a sun or some sort of light source to enclude days and nights. And treading ashes is the aftermath of things burnt up. If our bibile tells us this then it cannot fit the picture of eternal torture, an existance without the light of God or ashes under our feet. Hell is the last war of inmessurable horror and suffering for those on the wrong side of the fence. Imagine a war with all the nukes and other weapons of mass destruction at your disposal? Now imagine them being set off all at once? Can you configure the aftermath? It'll be months or years before they see any light and the radioactive fallout will cause much suffering for days, months, or years. It'll feel like forever. The bible authors aren't aware of such destructive power from mans own design. It'll be by this that we're punished in the flesh.
What satan and his followers will try to do against the Holy City will backfire. Missles launched will be turned around from where they came (fire from the skies) After this satans remaining followers will turn against him. This is an account that seems more logical then God as an axemen not allowing anyone in "hell" to have any relief for trillions of years upon trillions upon trillions. Come on! I wouldn't want a God who would be so unfair even though I do think the punishment is fitting for certain sinners. Thats my opinion but not my request. I want to kill this guy who killed my cousin and make him suffer way more then what he did to her. But I wouldn't be able to stand the screaming so I would do it for a little while. Otherwise to see him suffer for years or until his last breath would make me as sick as him, know what I'm saying here? Some people want an eternal hell for personnal vengence. What kind of heart do you have to desire such horror on anyone? Jesus came so we would not perish, but have everlasting life and abundance. For those who debate this, referr to older bible versions because what John has shown us is how much of our bibles have been rewritten. It'll be in our best interest to not follow modernized biblical literature without the originals.

 

[King James]

Sheol, Hades, Hell and The Lake of Fire in some places can be different places. In other cases, just different wording. I believe that the place right now for humans, is a temporary place. The lake of fire is the eternal place for final judgement. In other words, no one is in the lake of fire now, and it may not even exist yet. People also view Satan as somekind of prison warden of hell. Satan is not bound in a place like that. He still today can travel back and forth from heaven to hell like in the book of Job. Like in Revelation he is fighting the angels in heaven. When final judgements are cast, Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire as a nobody. No special treatment or authority.

This is a tough subject and can be hard to grasp. God, before he created the earth, knowingly put a system in play where the end result would be in some of his creations suffering eternally? Yes. First off all, since no one has been finally judged also indicates that it's not too late for anyone. In that temporary holding place where people exist now can still accept Jesus. Ultimately it is a choice. Do you want to live with your creators forever in peace and perfection? Many on this site would say yes I assume. Just wonder how it would be and if you would fit in a place like that. Just as those rejected God when lived for a short time earth, people reject him now. Sorrow and pain is there pleasure. Pettiness and depravity is what they crave. For them, the lake of fire is what they ultimately will prefer as a suitable place for them.




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