Is house church biblical?

[shad]

Of course I'm sure about this... and a few others.
Start here and look at the foot note.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Co&chapter=15#n21

http://ccel.org has a very good article on it as well.

thanks stove,

something does not add up. I will get back to you.

.

 

[stovebolts]

No problem. It's always good to learn. If you find any interesting tidbits, please come back and share

In the meantime, let me leave you with this to ponder. BTW, don't just read these two verses, go back and read the entire story

1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is established, it cannot be moved.
16:31 Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be happy!
Let the nations say, ‘The Lord reigns!’

 

[Adullam]

No problem. It's always good to learn. If you find any interesting tidbits, please come back and share

In the meantime, let me leave you with this to ponder. BTW, don't just read these two verses, go back and read the entire story

1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is established, it cannot be moved.
16:31 Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be happy!
Let the nations say, ‘The Lord reigns!’

Amen! A wonderful prophecy of a time when all nations shall be ruled from Zion!

 

[Drew]

Amen! A wonderful prophecy of a time when all nations shall be ruled from Zion!

Of course, there is nothing in the 1 Chronicles text that rules out the view that the Lord already reigns.

 

[Drew]

Amen! A wonderful prophecy of a time when all nations shall be ruled from Zion!

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Note how the Zech 14 narrative has God enthroned as king and ruler:

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

As of 2000 years ago, God reigns from Zion.

 

[Adullam]

Amen! A wonderful prophecy of a time when all nations shall be ruled from Zion!

Of course, there is nothing in the 1 Chronicles text that rules out the view that the Lord already reigns.

1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is established, it cannot be moved.
16:31 Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be happy!
Let the nations say, ‘The Lord reigns!’

When is the last time you saw the whole earth tremble before Him? Every knee SHALL bow. Not...every knee bows. Prophecies are still future until all is ready..until all the conditions are met. Anyone can believe what they want. It does not change the reality. Did you know that some already believe the millenium is here? That the resurrection is already past? Is that what you also believe?

 

[Adullam]

Amen! A wonderful prophecy of a time when all nations shall be ruled from Zion!

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Note how the Zech 14 narrative has God enthroned as king and ruler:

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

As of 2000 years ago, God reigns from Zion.

God has always reigned in Zion....forever! Zion is the abode of God. It is a spiritual dwelling place. What we await is for God to permanently take up His residence here on earth. Then Zion will be in our midst...forever.

 

[Drew]

God has always reigned in Zion....forever! Zion is the abode of God. It is a spiritual dwelling place. What we await is for God to permanently take up His residence here on earth. Then Zion will be in our midst...forever.

This post of yours is like many others of yours.

I presented a detailed argument, grounded in the scriptures. Your response is to merely make an assertion - in this case "God has always reigned in Zion". That is not appropriate debating tactics. I defend my assertions with an underlying argument. If I may suggest, you need to do likewise.

Besides, God has decidedly not always reigned in Zion. Have you forgotten the exile? Now, to be fair, this is just a statement on my part. But I can defend it.

Do you wish me to give the details against the position that God has always reigned in Zion?

 

[Adullam]

God has always reigned in Zion....forever! Zion is the abode of God. It is a spiritual dwelling place. What we await is for God to permanently take up His residence here on earth. Then Zion will be in our midst...forever.

This post of yours is like many others of yours.

I presented a detailed argument, grounded in the scriptures. Your response is to merely make an assertion - in this case "God has always reigned in Zion". That is not appropriate debating tactics. I defend my assertions with an underlying argument. If I may suggest, you need to do likewise.

Besides, God has decidedly not always reigned in Zion. Have you forgotten the exile? Now, to be fair, this is just a statement on my part. But I can defend it.

Do you wish me to give the details against the position that God has always reigned in Zion?

There is no place in the universe where God is not in ultimate control. Arguing against this is futile. For every verse that you misunderstand there will be dozens that state the opposite of your conclusions. God did not come onto another god's creation and say...I like that, I think I'll make it mine!
You are not understanding the spiritual nature of Zion. This is why you confuse spiritual realities in the present with future events in our own time and space.

Do you believe that Jesus is a part of God. Do you understand...Today I have begotten you! This statement by God has been made to support the JW position that Jesus is a created being. Do you see that there must be a spiritual understanding and not just a heap of verses seeming to back an opinion? Almost anything can be "established" through a faulty understanding.

This is what you are doing here. You are looking to justify a non spiritual understanding by building a case on mis-understood verses. This is all too common. We must rather let the truth change us.

 

[Drew]

There is no place in the universe where God is not in ultimate control. Arguing against this is futile.

That's not what we are talking about. Here is what you posted:

God has always reigned in Zion....forever! Zion is the abode of God.

This is not a correct statement. God has not always ruled in Zion. You seem to ignore the time of the exile, a time where God withdrew his kingship over Israel. If God always reigned in Zion, as you suggest, why would Isaiah write this:

Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices,
They shout joyfully together;
For they will see with their own eyes
When the LORD restores Zion.

The image here is of Israel awaiting, and looking for, the return of God to Zion.

The theme of God's return to Zion, after a time of absence, is deeply woven into many Old Testamant texts. If time permits, I will pursue this further.

God is always God, but the scriptures are clear - He did indeed send the Jews into exile and hence was not ruling in Zion.

 

[Drew]

You are not understanding the spiritual nature of Zion. This is why you confuse spiritual realities in the present with future events in our own time and space.

I believe that the error is yours - in imposing a dualism between the "spiritual" and the "material" that you have inherited from the Greek worldview to which we in the west have fallen heir. The Hebrew mind really has no sense of such a distinction, at least in the form that you seem to believe in.

 

[Adullam]

There is no place in the universe where God is not in ultimate control. Arguing against this is futile.

That's not what we are talking about. Here is what you posted:

God has always reigned in Zion....forever! Zion is the abode of God.

This is not a correct statement. God has not always ruled in Zion. You seem to ignore the time of the exile, a time where God withdrew his kingship over Israel. If God always reigned in Zion, as you suggest, why would Isaiah write this:

Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices,
They shout joyfully together;
For they will see with their own eyes
When the LORD restores Zion.

The image here is of Israel awaiting, and looking for, the return of God to Zion.

The theme of God's return to Zion, after a time of absence, is deeply woven into many Old Testamant texts. If time permits, I will pursue this further.

God is always God, but the scriptures are clear - He did indeed send the Jews into exile and hence was not ruling in Zion.

Zion represents the dwelling in Jerusalem during David's earthly reign. David is a type of Christ. Zion is a type of God's habitation and His rule over His creation! What God did in the temporal reality in the time of king David He will do in the future in eternal reality...He will literally make His abode in Jerusalem....the new Jerusalem. He will tabernacle among men! It is hard to miss this. With men it is always temporal first and eternal second. So Zion is both the historical Jerusalem with David on the throne ...this is the foreshadowing...and the actual Zion which is God's abode with the Son of David (Jesus Christ) sitting on the throne...forever.

Zion is the place of divine rule! The new Zion will come out of heaven. This is the true Zion, the spiritual Zion. God will rule His creation from there. The saints will dwell there. The new Jerusalem is not made with hands. God already lives in Zion...just not yet in this world...not until the new heavens and new earth are created.

 

[Adullam]

You are not understanding the spiritual nature of Zion. This is why you confuse spiritual realities in the present with future events in our own time and space.

I believe that the error is yours - in imposing a dualism between the "spiritual" and the "material" that you have inherited from the Greek worldview to which we in the west have fallen heir. The Hebrew mind really has no sense of such a distinction, at least in the form that you seem to believe in.

You are neither an authority in Greek philosophy nor biblical understanding. You are showing that you are a dilletante in these matters. You are probably a JW or an adherent to a sect that denies the power of resurrection in Christ. Whatever sect you belong to, you don't understand the very basics of biblical truth. Your false claim that the existence of the invisible world of the Spirit stems from Greek thinking. This suits your blindness to anything you can't see for yourself. So your thesis is vain and self-serving.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

This is biblical wisdom NOT Greek thinking. If you wish to see the truth you need to surrender to God and ask for your eyes to be enlightened!

 

[Drew]

As I have suggested a number of times, I believe that many people are crippled, right from the start, by a deep fundamental error in respect to the what the Bible teaches about the distinction between the "spiritual" and the "temporal".

Greek ideas have deeply affected us in the west to the point where a substantive distinction between the "spiritual" and the "material" (or temporal) is simply assumed . But the Scriptures do not support such a distinction. Note how Paul uses the term "spiritual" in this text as a descriptor for what is clearly a physical body:

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

Paul is taking about the future resurrection of the dead where the redeemed will all inherit bodies like that of Jesus - "spiritual" bodies.

Are these bodies "physical"? Of course they are. The risen Jesus had arms, legs, a mouth, eyes, etc. He ate fish and walked around.

So right off the bat we that the word "spiritual" does not refer to an unseen domain of the immateiral / non-physical.

 

[stovebolts]

deleted. Off topic

 

[Adullam]

As I have suggested a number of times, I believe that many people are crippled, right from the start, by a deep fundamental error in respect to the what the Bible teaches about the distinction between the "spiritual" and the "temporal".

Greek ideas have deeply affected us in the west to the point where a substantive distinction between the "spiritual" and the "material" (or temporal) is simply assumed . But the Scriptures do not support such a distinction. Note how Paul uses the term "spiritual" in this text as a descriptor for what is clearly a physical body:

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

Paul is taking about the future resurrection of the dead where the redeemed will all inherit bodies like that of Jesus - "spiritual" bodies.

Are these bodies "physical"? Of course they are. The risen Jesus had arms, legs, a mouth, eyes, etc. He ate fish and walked around.

So right off the bat we that the word "spiritual" does not refer to an unseen domain of the immateiral / non-physical.

You are applying this basic understanding of bodies as a template for the rest of scripture. That verse is not the key to understanding as you wish it to be. This verse merely is saying what happens to the body.

If Jesus' kingdom is not of this world as He Himself said....then it must be someplace else????

 

[Free]

You are showing that you are a dilletante in these matters.

You should not be using dilettante of others when you have utterly failed to understand what Drew is saying. So stop accusing others of blindness, vanity, self-serving and poor biblical understanding.

 

[Drew]

You are probably a JW or an adherent to a sect that denies the power of resurrection in Christ.

I am not a JW.

I fully embrace the power of resurrection in Christ.

Your false claim that the existence of the invisible world of the Spirit stems from Greek thinking. This suits your blindness to anything you can't see for yourself. So your thesis is vain and self-serving.

You need to actually make a case that I am mistaken, not merely assert it.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

This is biblical wisdom NOT Greek thinking. If you wish to see the truth you need to surrender to God and ask for your eyes to be enlightened!

I suggest that you are not taking full account of context:

Therefore we (AK)do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our (AL)inner man is (AM)being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, (AN)light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we (AO)look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Paul is not suggesting that there is a strong distinction between a “bad†physical order and a superior unseen “spiritual†domain. He is instead drawing a distinction between our present state – in bodies that are aging and dying – and the future promised state of fully restored physicality. So what is unseen is the future. Paul is certainly not suggesting that we look forward to a day when the “fallen†physical world is disposed of and we can float free as disembodied spirits.

 

[Drew]

If Jesus' kingdom is not of this world as He Himself said....then it must be someplace else????

Jesus never said that His kingdom is not "of" this world in the sense that you mean. You are a victim of a translation problem (not your fault).

Here is the argument:

Note this from John 18:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€Â

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

 

[Adullam]

The eternal reality can be experienced right now. The invisible can be seen. God gives light to the eyes. This is through the gift of faith. Walking in the Spirit is the way to walk beyond the limitations of this present reality. Blindness, in the spiritual sense, is the inability to see anything that is not made of temporal matter. Do we walk by faith rather than by sight? Do we see beyond the facade? It is interesting that this position would be seen as a strange one, rather than the opposite.

It is rather pointless to discuss this reality unless one has already seen and experienced it. The scope of this subject goes far beyond a forum such as this. We are limited to computers here. It also is quite out of context in this thread which concerns house church! ;)