Is house church biblical?

[Free]

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

He is cast out of heaven, not this world.

Notice that it is "the prince of this world" that will now be cast out and that immediately follows that "now is the judgment of this world." That whole passage is about his death and judgment on the world. Certainly you don't believe that Satan was in heaven the whole time prior to Jesus' death, do you?

It is clear from the passage that Jesus is referring to casting the prince of this world from his position of authority in this world.

To be more clear, do you have any Scripture that is post-resurrection showing that Satan is in charge of this world?

Satan is also called prince of this world.
.

Yes, but where?

You have yet to provide one verse after the resurrection of Jesus that shows Satan is still the ruler of this world.

 

[jasoncran]

what ever satan does on the earth he is allowed to do so by the lord, thus ultimately the lord is in control.

jason

 

[shad]

Notice that it is "the prince of this world" that will now be cast out and that immediately follows that "now is the judgment of this world." That whole passage is about his death and judgment on the world. Certainly you don't believe that Satan was in heaven the whole time prior to Jesus' death, do you?

I dont know exactly when Satan was cast out of heaven but he was cast out of heaven, not this world.

It is clear from the passage that Jesus is referring to casting the prince of this world from his position of authority in this world.

Clearly Jesus has authority over satan now but Jesus is not ruling this world. It is just illogical from the reality. do you see peacefu world? When Jesus rules, it will be perfect world, no more sorrows. If you refuse to see this simple fact, I dont know what to tell you and I cannot help you.

.

Yes, but where?

Why do you do this? You just showed the verse yourself.

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

You have yet to provide one verse after the resurrection of Jesus that shows Satan is still the ruler of this world.

I give up.

take care.

 

[Free]

Notice that it is "the prince of this world" that will now be cast out and that immediately follows that "now is the judgment of this world." That whole passage is about his death and judgment on the world. Certainly you don't believe that Satan was in heaven the whole time prior to Jesus' death, do you?

I dont know exactly when Satan was cast out of heaven but he was cast out of heaven, not this world.

No one is disputing that Satan was cast out of heaven but that is clearly not what is in view here, it does not fit the context. Also, since Satan was first created good as an angel, he clearly was not good long prior to the events in John 12. That are two very strong reasons as to why Jesus was not speaking about Satan being cast out of heaven.

It is clear from the passage that Jesus is referring to casting the prince of this world from his position of authority in this world.

Clearly Jesus has authority over satan now but Jesus is not ruling this world. It is just illogical from the reality. do you see peacefu world? When Jesus rules, it will be perfect world, no more sorrows. If you refuse to see this simple fact, I dont know what to tell you and I cannot help you.

You have not addressed the arguments that deal with with your objection.

Yes, but where?

Why do you do this? You just showed the verse yourself.

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

Yes, I know what the verse says. But as I have asked more than once, I would like to see a verse that states that after Jesus' resurrection.

You have yet to provide one verse after the resurrection of Jesus that shows Satan is still the ruler of this world.

I give up.

take care.

Why do you give up? You have not only not addressed the arguments but you have not provided one verse to support your own assertion. This seems to be a habit with you.

 

[follower of Christ]

Anywhere we gather is fine...homes or any other buildings.
His 'ekklesia' is the people, not any building of stone and wood.

 

[shad]

This seems to be a habit with you.

I am not one of the posters who goes on with useless debate. You are not willing to budge and neither am I. I made my point and you disagree. I have nothing more to say.

take care.

.

 

[Edouard]

Adullam awesome points.

House Churches to who rules the earth?

House Churches can become corrupt just like churches. It all has to do with leadership. I have seen many of them as a pk. Revelation 1 - 3.

Next topic. Satan rules the earth??

So when Paul tells us that we submit ourselves to authority - we would then be submitting to Satan correct?

Your logic on Christ being tempted makes no sense.
Why? The book of Job my friend.
Satan roams the earth and roams heaven. He was cast out of Heaven and sent to the earth.

When Job was being tested by God. Who was the one that persecuted him? Satan. However who did Satan have to get permission from frist?

Satan may live and roam on this world. But God has appointed all authority.

If you all are that indepth on proving your points through scripture. I highly reccomend using a concordance and look up Authority. Try a word study then come back with your conclusions.

If you say that Satan has authory on earth why would Paul tell us to submit ot authority and in doing so, where does free will come in? Then we would be disobedient to authority for no reason which would cause us to sin. Did not Christ say give to ceasr what is ceasar's. (let's not go to extremes on this).

Edouard
May God guide you in your studies through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Adullam]

God has always ruled over the earth. This has always been. The enemy squats over the earth as if in control. God lets him be. But He is preparing a people to rule as well. As such, He permits the enemy to continue as before. All that can be shaken will be shaken. So God permits that Satan continues to influence and tempt all those who are influencible by him. In this way we are being tested. Are we ignorant of his devices? Let us see how the enemy brings in deception.


All "truth" is in harmony with the only channel of revealed truth in the temporal world--the written Word of God. All "teachings" originating from deceiving spirits--

1. Weaken the authority of the Scriptures;
2. Distort the teaching in the Scriptures;
3. Add to the Scriptures the thoughts of men; or
4. Put the Scriptures entirely aside.

Are we doing exactly as it says in the word....like a recipe in cooking? Or are we following our own recipe to disaster?


The word is found in the temporal reality. It points us toward the eternal reality the way that road signs lead us to a city. The road signs themselves are not our destination. We must follow them into the eternal reality. The bible is not the end but the means to the end. And that end is to abide in Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

God has always ruled over the earth. This has always been.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40935&start=195

if we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

Did I miss something?

 

[Adullam]

God has always ruled over the earth. This has always been.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=40935&start=195

if we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

Did I miss something?

LOL This is the conundrum. In the world but not OF the world. Non -Christians cannot fathom a God who allows evil to exist in the world. They want a God who is obedient to their own ways. God allows man to do his own thing for now! But He wants us to choose Him. He does not force His Godship on us. The world will never choose Him. The world hates God. The Enemy has infiltrated the world and it's systems in order to stand against God. That is why we need to be separate...to not be included in the sins of the world. But we have come out of the world to join with God. We follow His voice through the word and the Spirit. His desire is that we become one as He is One. If we surrender all to Him...even our homes...the church soon takes root there!

 

[stovebolts]

Maybe you could define world for me? When you say world, what exactly are your referencing?

 

[shad]

Maybe you could define world for me? When you say world, what exactly are your referencing?

simple, secular world.

.

 

[Adullam]

Maybe you could define world for me? When you say world, what exactly are your referencing?

world: cosmos


The cosmos according to the bible is that sphere that is outside the recognition of and obedience to...God's reign. The collective of unregenerate man who stand in common with each other. It is those who submit to and are guided by the sin nature. This could be by ethnicity, social standing, nationality...etc. A place where man is the ultimate ruler and saviour. Man is God according to the ideology of the cosmos. The cosmos is the reasoning and judgment of men. The organization of men who come together to build something...like Babel...they incorporate according to men. The Corporations (meaning embody) are of the world. They are systems that run by the power of the cosmos. Man recognizes these entities as legitimate. Man gives them legitimacy. If you are submitted to the cosmos...you will get ahead in the world. The church has mistakenly submitted to the cosmos for human recognition. What is respectable in the cosmos is respectable in the modern church. But God chose the illiterate and despised things of the creation to confound the cosmos.

The paradox in all this is that Jesus died for the cosmos. He died for all who would turn to Him. We were all born outside the reign of God in our lives. We are all a part of the cosmos...until we become separate from it. We then enter the church (not a church)...like one would an ark.

 

[stovebolts]

Shad
That's an odd definition since Paul quotes truth from many secular sources... That's what I hate about labels.

Actually, what I think within the context of discussion, world could be defined as everything which opposes God or opposes how we were originally intended to live. This way of life can be found within religion and outside of religion. You see, its a human fault, not an institutional fault which is why you see the same issues within a house church as you do within organized religion. Both are expressions of humanity and how we live out our faith.

Jim Jones, need I say more?

 

[stovebolts]

world: cosmos

Lets bring this down to earth huh? According to your definition, in what way specifically is this played out? While your explaining to me these specific instances, please tell me how a house church is any better off than say the congregation that I, or even Joe (Francis) attends.

In other words, I'm tired of ideologies, I want to discuss the issues.

Grace and Peace,
Jeff

 

[Free]

This seems to be a habit with you.

I am not one of the posters who goes on with useless debate. You are not willing to budge and neither am I. I made my point and you disagree. I have nothing more to say.

This isn't about me not being willing to budge or merely disagreeing. You simply have not addressed the arguments or provided proof of your position. One verse from Jesus' resurrection onward is all I have asked for.

 

[shad]

Shad
That's an odd definition since Paul quotes truth from many secular sources...

what do you mean by this?

BTW, Jesus uses the word "world". In fact, Jesus labels just about everything.

.

 

[stovebolts]

Shad,

I thought it was pretty clear. Paul quotes truth from "secular" or "pagan" sources.
Part of being a Christian is seeing God's truth wherever you find it, and reclaiming (reconciling) those truths for Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:33 (Net Bible) Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.â€Â
This "secular" truth was quoted from the poet Menander, born 342 BC in Athens.

Thus, be careful how you define "Secular" and its use as a label.

Grace and Peace.

 

[shad]

Shad,


1 Corinthians 15:33 (Net Bible) Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.â€Â
This "secular" truth was quoted from the poet Menander, born 342 BC in Athens.

Are you sure about this? Where did you get this information?

.

 

[stovebolts]

Of course I'm sure about this... and a few others.
Start here and look at the foot note.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Co&chapter=15#n21

http://ccel.org has a very good article on it as well.