Is it dangerous to teach non-OSAS?

[Jethro Bodine]

Karl said this to me in another thread:

...so what I see you both saying, please don't get angry, is you are eternally secure, but maybe not others, so you personally believe in OSAS for yourselves, but not for others.

The reason I asked the question is because I was saved in a denomination that believed that after a person was born again they could lose their salvation, ...again, I don't want to debate doctrine, ...I want to talk about the results of that doctrine, as a young dumb and stupid baby child of God I made all of the common newbie mistakes, pastor worship, denomination worship, we were the only ones that had the truth, all during my two and a half years there, ...I never had any assurance of my salvation, I also was in charge of the youth and most of them were scared and without assurance of their salvation, ...why, because we knew and understood the undescribable horror and terror and finality of the Lake of Fire, we never had peace, we had occasional moments when we were distracted and didn't think about it, but no real peace like the Word promises,

...now I hope you understand the reason I asked my question and I also hope you understand my saying you don'tpersonally believe you can lose your salvation, so may I humbly and in the love of Christ ask you to please reconsider talking about a person losing their salvation if you don't believe it personally for yourselves, it can do great damage and destroy someone's faith.

Instead of salving people's conscience about the assurance of a salvation they may or may not really have, shouldn't we instead be teaching them what the Bible says on how to 'make your calling and election sure' to know if you are really saved or not?

Do you think teaching OSAS is how you comfort someone in a salvation they may or may not have? Or do you think we should teach people how to know they are really saved and have them find the comfort and assurance of their salvation that way?

 

[Willie T]

I must need some more coffee. Not much of what EITHER of you said made a lot of sense to me.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Karl said this to me in another thread:

...so what I see you both saying, please don't get angry, is you are eternally secure, but maybe not others, so you personally believe in OSAS for yourselves, but not for others.

The reason I asked the question is because I was saved in a denomination that believed that after a person was born again they could lose their salvation, ...again, I don't want to debate doctrine, ...I want to talk about the results of that doctrine, as a young dumb and stupid baby child of God I made all of the common newbie mistakes, pastor worship, denomination worship, we were the only ones that had the truth, all during my two and a half years there, ...I never had any assurance of my salvation, I also was in charge of the youth and most of them were scared and without assurance of their salvation, ...why, because we knew and understood the undescribable horror and terror and finality of the Lake of Fire, we never had peace, we had occasional moments when we were distracted and didn't think about it, but no real peace like the Word promises,

...now I hope you understand the reason I asked my question and I also hope you understand my saying you don'tpersonally believe you can lose your salvation, so may I humbly and in the love of Christ ask you to please reconsider talking about a person losing their salvation if you don't believe it personally for yourselves, it can do great damage and destroy someone's faith.

Instead of salving people's conscience about the assurance of a salvation they may or may not really have, shouldn't we instead be teaching them what the Bible says on how to 'make your calling and election sure' to know if you are really saved or not?

Do you think teaching OSAS is how you comfort someone in a salvation they may or may not have? Or do you think we should teach people how to know they are really saved and have them find the comfort and assurance of their salvation that way?

OSAS usually works like this, and I have seen it many times when I was a Calvinist including with myself. That a person examines their lives and thinks to themselves, "I am not where I should be, and I keep struggling... maybe I was never saved." They then question their very own genuineness as it relates to their first confession, and if they have been kidding themselves the whole team.. just waiting to be a tare sifted from the wheat.

I think it can be damaging for many, especially when they see others who have fallen away who they knew were genuine in their belief. It can't be reconciled without them making the claim that, "this person must have never been a Christian.." Yet when they then examine themselves through that same light, they can perhaps see that this person was perhaps more on fire for the Lord, and thus doubt ever more so creeps in.

I think that the promises of God are all conditional on our place in Christ, our new life, our inheritance, etc. One is united with Christ by faith, and thus if one completely falls away from Christ they forfeit the blessings that comes with union with him. This means that when one doubts, or falters, the answer is to cling to Christ.

 

[Willie T]

Now there're three of you. Where's that coffee?

 

[smaller]

OSAS usually works like this, and I have seen it many times when I was a Calvinist including with myself. That a person examines their lives and thinks to themselves, "I am not where I should be, and I keep struggling... maybe I was never saved." They then question their very own genuineness as it relates to their first confession, and if they have been kidding themselves the whole team.. just waiting to be a tare sifted from the wheat.

OSAS in the case of Calvinism is a misnomer. A Calvinist doesn't really know and can't know if they are saved until God decides. So they are in no different shape than the non-OSAS person in this regards.

I think it can be damaging for many, especially when they see others who have fallen away who they knew were genuine in their belief. It can't be reconciled without them making the claim that, "this person must have never been a Christian.." Yet when they then examine themselves through that same light, they can perhaps see that this person was perhaps more on fire for the Lord, and thus doubt ever more so creeps in.

I think that the promises of God are all conditional on our place in Christ, our new life, our inheritance, etc. One is united with Christ by faith, and thus if one completely falls away from Christ they forfeit the blessings that comes with union with him. This means that when one doubts, or falters, the answer is to cling to Christ.

If promises from God are conditional on man, man is pretty well up the creek without a paddle.

Any of us can wallow in our own imaginations. These are generally worthless engagements.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OSAS in the case of Calvinism is a misnomer. A Calvinist doesn't really know and can't know if they are saved until God decides. So they are in no different shape than the non-OSAS person in this regards.

To some degree that is the case, though they of course do believe they are saved.

As a former Calvinist, I believed I was saved, but when I doubted it, I would wonder if I was ever saved.

If promises from God are conditional on man, man is pretty well up the creek without a paddle.

The promises of God all have their yes and amen in Christ, he will bring about what he promised for those in Christ. Yet, if we reject Christ, we will be held accountable for this, not God.

This doesn't mean that God isn't empowering us all along the way

Any of us can wallow in our own imaginations. These are generally worthless engagements.

This ignores the very real consequences of ideas and how they affect our thinking.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Now there're three of you. Where's that coffee?

This should be fun, watching them feed off of each others imaginations.

 

[Willie T]

To some degree that is the case, though they of course do believe they are saved.

As a former Calvinist, I believed I was saved, but when I doubted it, I would wonder if I was ever saved.


The promises of God all have their yes and amen in Christ, he will bring about what he promised for those in Christ. Yet, if we reject Christ, we will be held accountable for this, not God.

This doesn't mean that God isn't empowering us all along the way


This ignores the very real consequences of ideas and how they affect our thinking.

Now, finally, that one sentence made sense. In fact, Joseph Prince recently wrote a book entitled, The Power of Right Believing. His premise is that Right Believing leads to Right Living.

 

[smaller]

This should be fun, watching them feed off of each others imaginations.

I can assure you that I will not be witnessing to my grandchildren that their faith unto salvation is unknown or unknowable or that the God in Christ who loves them and gave His life for them may instead turn and burn them alive forever.

That's just a spiritual sickness that many people carry within. If there are people that don't know they are saved or that they may be saved they may really have nothing whatsoever. They really can't say can they?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I can assure you that I will not be witnessing to my grandchildren that their faith unto salvation is unknown or unknowable or that the God in Christ who loves them and gave His life for them may instead turn and burn them alive forever.

That's just a spiritual sickness that many people carry within. If there are people that don't know they are saved or that they may be saved they may really have nothing whatsoever. They really can't say can they?

I certainly hope that you teach your children that the only Eternal Security there is, is found in Christ and no where else. One must endure to the end.

 

[smaller]

I certainly hope that you teach your children that the only Eternal Security there is, is found in Christ and no where else. One must endure to the end.

Yeah, therefore one must, in the case of such a mindset, demand their grandchildren to believe that the God in Christ who loves them could turn and burn them alive forever for any given number of reasons. And they must drag that claim of doubting faith around their necks their entire lives.

Won't be my conveyance. I wouldn't trust my children or grandchildren to such a belief for any reason.

 

[Willie T]

I certainly hope that you teach your children that the only Eternal Security there is, is found in Christ and no where else. One must endure to the end.

Therein - I think - lies the rub. What, really and truly, do each of us see as "ENDURING" to the end?

Is it something you do?

I see it as "allowing God to reign in our lives." Not taking control, ourselves.

 

[smaller]

Therein - I think - lies the rub. What, really and truly, do each of us see as "ENDURING" to the end?

Is it something you do?

I see it as "allowing God to reign in our lives." Not taking control, ourselves.

Enduring in the case of non-OSAS factually means you never really know. Or at best you may deceive yourself that you know at any given point in time, continually subject to adverse change and consequence.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Therein - I think - lies the rub. What, really and truly, do each of us see as "ENDURING" to the end?

Is it something you do?

I see it as "allowing God to reign in our lives." Not taking control, ourselves.

Trusting in Jesus to the end, holding onto him as our anchor, our salvation.

It is not a set of good deeds we must meet by the end of our life, but rather we must never cease in having faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I must need some more coffee. Not much of what EITHER of you said made a lot of sense to me.

Now that you've had your morning coffee...

A brother comes to you and says "I'm not sure I'll be saved on the Day of Wrath". Is it better to say...

A. "Oh, don't worry, brother, once saved always saved!"

or

B. "The Bible helps us to discern whether or not we belong to Christ and will pass through the coming Judgment safely."​

The better answer is B.

Karl seems to have the thinking that if someone is scared about the coming Judgment that you take away those fears by saying to them 'once you are saved you are always saved'. Which is a false and misleading comfort if the person really isn't even saved to begin with.

It's easy to see that his approach is far more dangerous than my approach which would be to have the individual FIRST examine themselves, Biblically, to see if they are even in the faith to begin with. From there you take the appropriate remedy for the person's fear. I see no value in salving the conscience of a person with a OSAS doctrine who isn't even born again to begin with and who, because you told them OSAS is true, are provided no impetus to even determine whether they are or not ahead of the coming Judgment.

Karl's answer to the fear of the coming Judgment in the believer is just another stroking of the ear of the church. The Bible tells us what relieves the fear of the coming Judgment and it is not "OSAS".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Enduring in the case of non-OSAS factually means you never really know. Or at best you may deceive yourself that you know at any given point in time, continually subject to adverse change and consequence.

I see that you do not understand non-OSAS doctrine.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Now that you've had your morning coffee...

A brother comes to you and says "I'm not sure I'll be saved on the Day of Wrath". Is it better to say...

A. "Oh, don't worry, brother, once saved always saved!"

or

B. "The Bible helps us to discern whether or not we belong to Christ and will pass through the coming Judgment safely."​

The better answer is B.

Karl seems to have the thinking that if someone is scared about the coming Judgment that you take away those fears by saying to them 'once you are saved you are always saved'. Which is a false and misleading comfort if the person really isn't even saved to begin with.

It's easy to see that his approach is far more dangerous than my approach which would be to have the individual FIRST examine themselves, Biblically, to see if they are even in the faith to begin with. From there you take the appropriate remedy for the person's fear. I see no value in salving the conscience of a person with a OSAS doctrine who isn't even born again to begin with and who, because you told them OSAS is true, are provided no impetus to even determine whether they are or not ahead of the coming Judgment.

Karl's answer to the fear of the coming Judgment in the believer is just another stroking of the ear of the church. The Bible tells us what relieves the fear of the coming Judgment and it is not "OSAS".

I think both OSAS and non-OSAS will say B, but the consequences of B for each are different.

The OSAS it means that if they doubt, they are doubting whether or not they were ever saved.

The non-OSAS it means that if they doubt, they are doubting whether or not they are currently saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Therein - I think - lies the rub. What, really and truly, do each of us see as "ENDURING" to the end?

Is it something you do?

If you consider trusting in Christ as something you do, then, 'yes', it is something you do.

I see it as "allowing God to reign in our lives." Not taking control, ourselves.

Will not "allowing God to reign in our lives" be seen in what you do?

This seems to be what OSAS doesn't understand. Faith in Christ is evidenced by what it does. But OSAS seems to ignore this truth.

OSAS is a doctrine that has resulted from the church's 'do nothing' grace thinking. The fear being that if you have to 'do' anything to be saved, including continuing in your faith, you are guilty of trying to earn your own salvation. How ridiculous.

 

[Jesse]

Yes, it is a dangerous teaching.

I can assure you that I will not be witnessing to my grandchildren that their faith unto salvation is unknown or unknowable or that the God in Christ who loves them and gave His life for them may instead turn and burn them alive forever.

That's just a spiritual sickness that many people carry within. If there are people that don't know they are saved or that they may be saved they may really have nothing whatsoever. They really can't say can they?

I agree with Jethro, you do not understand NOSAS, your description does not describe anyone I know with the NOSAS belief. In fact, they are more likely to do that which God has called them to do because they do not take their salvation for granted as many I see osas doing (none here but in real life), they drink all the time, show up for church on Sundays, don't read their Bibles, brag to others about how they are saved.

It's not about a changed life to them, it's more about living in the now because a person with an osas belief (again, none here but in real life) doesn't prepare for their future, nor store up treasures in heaven (none here, but people in my real life).

I would rather stay within the foundation of Jesus Christ and do what He IS doing, and not stray and toe the line.

 

[smaller]

I agree with Jethro, you do not understand NOSAS, your description does not describe anyone I know with the NOSAS belief.

I know you might not care for my observation of fact but the NON-OSAS position demands perpetual doubt to be attached to faith.