Is it even possible to desolate a future Temple

[John the Baptist]

A related question is:

Was it ever possible to desolate the previous Temple?


If so what made that possible?


Was the previous Temple any more or less of a shadow than it would be today or ever?

Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."

*****
Come on, you are to tame. (slow or whatever? the Lord will come before we hear anything from you!) Was Christ in that earthly Sanctuary or not? Acts 7:38
Then, did He ever go off the Sanctuary by day or by night, or did He leave if sin was openly present? And what would happen if the priest at the laver did not wash as twice stated.. that ye die not??

And could, or did this Sanctuary become desolat of Christ, or was it needing to be destroyed to become desolate of CHRIST? OK: You ask enough questions, :fadein: how about attempting to answer a few?

---John

 

[Cameron]

Come on.

I don't see any attempt by anyone to answer the questions to facilitate dsealing with the issue.

Some beleive the Temple can never be rebuilt. They claim it was desolated by either Christ's scarifice (? :crazyeyes: or by the Romans or some other. :rainbowafro:

By saying that they say the OT system is defunct (despite Matthew 5:17). So, I scratch my head and ask whether that statement makes sense from a Biblical perspective. What makes the Temple Holy? After all it's just a building isn't it? It is a building made up of atoms created by God. In fact, it's a rearrangements of stuff that God already created, itself subject to decay, for they had to remodel the Temple a few times.

So what makes the Temple in the NT any different in the OT, physically speaking, nothing. It's still just a building. So the importance then is assigned to God and His Presence. Was the Shekanah glory present in the Temple during Christ's earthly ministry?

It seems to me that I remember reading that the glory departing from Israel long before then. So in fact, when Antiochus went in to the Temple to slaughter a pig and set up the statue of Zues to defile theTemple, God's glory wasn't there. The Temple was just a building.

But Jesus pointed to the Abomination as a pattern in Matthew 24:15. And part of that pattern involved what Antiochus did in 168 BC and Jesus called it an Abomination of Desolation. So if Antiochus can set up an abomination of desoaltion in a building that did not have the Shekanah, then the issue is what the building represents; the home of God or His seat of authority.

Since the Temple is patterned after the Real One in Heaven according to Hebrews, then a NT building that represents God can just as easily be abominated as any other Temple building. it's not the building or the COnvenat that is the issue, it is what the building represents and what the act represents.

 

[John the Baptist]

Come on.

I don't see any attempt by anyone to answer the questions to facilitate dsealing with the issue.

Some beleive the Temple can never be rebuilt. They claim it was desolated by either Christ's scarifice (? :crazyeyes: or by the Romans or some other. :rainbowafro:

By saying that they say the OT system is defunct (despite Matthew 5:17). So, I scratch my head and ask whether that statement makes sense from a Biblical perspective. What makes the Temple Holy? After all it's just a building isn't it? It is a building made up of atoms created by God. In fact, it's a rearrangements of stuff that God already created, itself subject to decay, for they had to remodel the Temple a few times.

So what makes the Temple in the NT any different in the OT, physically speaking, nothing. It's still just a building. So the importance then is assigned to God and His Presence. Was the Shekanah glory present in the Temple during Christ's earthly ministry?

It seems to me that I remember reading that the glory departing from Israel long before then. So in fact, when Antiochus went in to the Temple to slaughter a pig and set up the statue of Zues to defile theTemple, God's glory wasn't there. The Temple was just a building.

But Jesus pointed to the Abomination as a pattern in Matthew 24:15. And part of that pattern involved what Antiochus did in 168 BC and Jesus called it an Abomination of Desolation. So if Antiochus can set up an abomination of desoaltion in a building that did not have the Shekanah, then the issue is what the building represents; the home of God or His seat of authority.

Since the Temple is patterned after the Real One in Heaven according to Hebrews, then a NT building that represents God can just as easily be abominated as any other Temple building. it's not the building or the COnvenat that is the issue, it is what the building represents and what the act represents.

****
John here: OK, so far very clearly put :fadein: . Now, according to Daniel it is in the 'midst of the week' that this Desolation of Christ takes place. (not 70 AD) Israel of old, who are called Christ's own, had a probationary time of closing! (DESOLATION!)

The 'week' of Atonement! (not 70AD) Judgement had to do with Leviticus 16:14-17. 'SEVEN TIMES' And the MIDST OF THE WEEK. From the Anointing of Christ to the Stoning of Stephen. 27-24 AD (if one does not like the addition's, start at the cross & go 3 1/2 back and forth?)

And the CLOSED DOOR of Matthew 25:10 or Matthew 10:23? Take note of the day of Atonement in Leviticus 16:30 for these ones alone. It goes along with 1 Peter 4:17's verse that Judgement must first start with 'the house of God'! In the next chapter of Leviticus 17:7-9 we see both the Israelites, plus all who come to Gods Truth, known by their works. If they did not at the day of Atonement lay it all on the Altar in obedience, they were to be cut off. And surely, this is what the record books will reveal! Ecclesiastes 12:14 Compare John 9:39-41 for Christ's OWN.

And the destruction of the temple in 70AD?

---John

 

[Cameron]

And the destruction of the temple in 70AD?

I gather from the verses you've quoted that 70 AD was the Jews logical judgment for having hardened hearts and blind spiritual eyes, paticularly in recognizing their "Hope" in the Messiah. Consequently they were destroyed just as in 609-586BC previously with Babylon when they also had forsaken God for idols.

That's all fine, but none if really has anything to do with an abomination of desolation. The defintion of abmonination of desolation comes from Christ when he connects Daniel to His words in Matthew 24:15.

Daniel has a number of references to the AOD.

Some of these references clearly speak of 168BC, so in a sense Jesus was pointing to the event of the past that resulted in Hannukah as an event that will transpire in the future that will result in something much greater.

Again, 70 AD does not match this, nor does anything in Christ's earthly ministry or the subsequent stoning of Stephen or Penetecost match this.

Daniel 8 is a clear reference to 168 BC when we what Antiochus did and what his actions primarily represented. That is the key.

An AOD must is a direct affront to God and His authority and sovereignty. And Temple buildings aside, the AOD Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 is still future.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, it is a little hard to read what you are saying. (spelling or perhaps my ignorance?)

Anyhow, it sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board.

---John

 

[Cameron]

Hi, it is a little hard to read what you are saying. (spelling or perhaps my ignorance?)

Anyhow, it sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board.

---John

What specifically are you refering to? I can explain things, but you really need to study the Scriptures yourself to see it. If you're not familiar with the Scripture or have never studied hermeutics (Bible study methods and how to read the Bible), then I would encourage you to do so, even if you have to read one of the only good books Tim LaHaye wrote on how to read the Bible.

Other resources include http://www.equip.org. I think they have a current two book offer on Bible study helps so that you can read the Bible for all its worth and learn about context and pretext.

The best to you in that endeavor. :bday:

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, it is a little hard to read what you are saying. (spelling or perhaps my ignorance?)

Anyhow, it sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board.

---John

****
Well, moderators: :fadein: Perhaps I was not to clear??
---John

 

[Vic C.]

Well moderators... what? LOL :

I see you two don't know each other. Cameron, Pastor N.B. N.B. meet Cameron. :-D Have fun and play nice. ;-)

 

[John the Baptist]

A related question is:

Was it ever possible to desolate the previous Temple?


If so what made that possible?


Was the previous Temple any more or less of a shadow than it would be today or ever?

Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."
_________________
Always willing to listen and consider.
Cameron Fultz

**********
John here:
We can agree with Isaiah 5, as pertaining to Christ & His Vineyard perhaps? In Isaiah 5:7 we read .. "That the Vineyard of the Lord is the House of Israel. (lets insert names for the house? Fold, Sanctuary, Church, Denomination, etc.)

But it does state that Christ has a HOUSE, and that it IS ISRAEL's. And CHRIST??? Surely Christ is prophetic for the Son of God, as My.. WELL BELOVED *Having a Vineyard!

Where one get's messed up perhaps, is who is now Israel?? But this is not the issue in Isaiah 5 here. The thought is history repeated, and in simplicity! :fadein: God requires it! As in the Eccl. verses.

OK: The Vineyard (HOUSE) has been fenced, (try Numbers 35:27-28 for the '6' cities of ones Refuge! Yes! Romans 8:1, huh?)

As one reads about Christ's Vineyard in reality, His Virgin Sanctuary of '6 fenced cities' (Revelation 3) with a 'tower in the midst of it', as seen in these verses, they come to a very important eternal life or eternal death decision as is seen in the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant in full volume of the Book, as a complete whole implies!! Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Notice Isaiah 5:3? This is the bottom line question! Even in todays time/frame as in all history, (heaven also) God deals only with His one True Virgin Fold where He is presented! Again, we are not talking of the 'other folds' where there are good, but ignorant ones of Christ still yoked there. See John 10:16 & Revelation 17:5 with Revelation 18:4. OK?

Christ came unto His OWN! John 1:9-10 :.
So in verse 3 we 'see' that the True Virgin Sanctuary or Vineyard (call it what you may?) was or is, the only place that Christ had for 'DWELLING WITH THEM' (see Psalms 77:13 in the K.J.)
And this meeting place for Christ being there, was and is CONDITIONAL! Also take note that a person can choose a Christ/less fold, sanctuary or denomination.

Also understand that a person (s) cannot have one without the other without having neither! Some claim to have Christ without both His New Testament as well as Old Testament's Everlasting Gospel Order & Covenant? (alone!) But take careful notice of the entire chapter of Isaiah 5. He HAS A VINEYARD! v. 7. It was not the Vineyard that was the trouble!

Note the Words of the Master. (Word of God!)
"And now. O' inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Juda, JUDGE I PRAY YOU, BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD." verse 3.

And the ABOMINATION that made them DESOLATE was complete! And the rest of the story??? It is of lesser importance but can be traced in Daniel, and Matthew 24 & in the verses following this bad choice in Isaiah 5:3 on! 70AD's slaughter came, but these ones choose a new leader as in Revelation 3:9! : Yet, it is of extreme importance to understand that satan has a short time period with this Christ/less fold to do his God permitted history repeat!! :roll:

---John

 

[Cameron]

We can agree with Isaiah 5, as pertaining to Christ & His Vineyard perhaps?

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting;

Jesus used this example in a parable and the Pharisees understood that it was about them; Matthew 21:45.

If you're more into a Covenant view like I am, then sure in sert Church there hypothetically like grafted limbs. Romans 11: We are grafted into Israel. There's only one Bride (Revelation 21-22).

But it does state that Christ has a HOUSE, and that it IS ISRAEL's. And CHRIST??? Surely Christ is prophetic for the Son of God, as My.. WELL BELOVED *Having a Vineyard!

Isa 5:1 Let me sing for my beloved my love song concerning his vineyard: My beloved had a vineyard on a very fertile hill.

Actually Jesus tells the story as just being the son of the Owner in Matthew 21 and rather than a house, it is a place where the Owner expects to receivea profit/fruit/harvest: ie.fruit of repentance/righteousness. Why? because the plants are people.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting; and he looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; for righteousness, but behold, an outcry!

And the ABOMINATION that made them DESOLATE was complete!
...this bad choice in Isaiah 5:3 on! 70AD's slaughter came,but these ones choose a new leader as in Revelation 3:9! (satan)

Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the Sanctuarie: who is so great a God, as our God? (KJV 1611)

So, you are saying that the Church took over from Israel under Jesus and the physical line of Abe decided to follow Satan?

Yet, it is of extreme importance to understand that satan has a short time period with this Christ/less fold to do his God permitted history repeat!!

Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

And then you are saying, I think, that rev. was fulfilled in history, symbolically, in 70 AD when the devil let loose his wrath?

This is all interesting and connecting these verses you have posted is a bit cryptic because you are assuming that I am filling in your thoughts between them and pouring in similar meaning rather than just coming out and telling me what you think they mean. I know you think you are probably explaining things quite clearly, and I thought I was too when I first started writing, but I had to train myself to write even more and spell things out even more.

But any place is sacred because of God's Presence (Exodus 3:5). The Temple is a pattern (Exodus 25:9) and any Temple has always ever been a shadow (Hebrews 8:5) and the Real is shown in (Revelation 11:19, 14:15 and 15:5).

The Temple of 168 BC and 70 AD did not have God's glory dwelling there (Ezekiel 10-11), but nonetheless, the Temple still represents His authority (Psalm 110) and was able to be desicrated by an abomination of desolation in 168 BC as Daniel predicted and Jesus hightlighted in Matthew 24:15. A pig was slaughtered on the altar; very vile.

There are those who claim Jesus' sacrifice was the "abomination that desolated the temple at the midpoint of the 70th Seven. But I think Isaiah 5:20 speaks to the idea of equating the the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb with the slaughtering of a pig. I know some past commentators have held to this idea but have not thought through the consequences.

For one thing, Daniel's 70 Sevens are sequential for a reason. So that the type of ultimate fulfillment can be known. The first two segments were fulfilled literally and physically in history. Therefore te last must also be fullfilled literally and physically (Daniel 9:24). This has not yet happened.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:

You say in part:
And then you are saying, I think, that rev. was fulfilled in history, symbolically, in 70 AD when the devil let loose his wrath?

****
This is what God states in the Eccl. verses. It will be different only in the simplicity of understanding. More people, quoted as a far worse tribulation, and some other simple understandings. The Mark of the Beast testing for the professed world? Surely any sincere one can find what that test will again be.
****

This is all interesting and connecting these verses you have posted is a bit cryptic because you are assuming that I am filling in your thoughts between them and pouring in similar meaning rather than just coming out and telling me what you think they mean. I know you think you are probably explaining things quite clearly, and I thought I was too when I first started writing, but I had to train myself to write even more and spell things out even more

****
Me again: The above takes time for understanding. One thing that might help is writing in the whole of the scripture & verse. Seeing that there is a Bible translation come to view when we click of the verse, and places it before us to read, :fadein:! (for others sake as well) then too there is the spell/check for 'my' goofs! :wink:

If one can see that God has made a short-cut for understanding last day prophecy in the Ecclesiastes verses, (twice documented) then we can understand the Truth much quicker! Ask yourself what was before Adam's first born son, Cain? Cain the first born rebelled! The angels are God's creation as was Adam's son by pro/creation. When was Lucifer created then? (not time/wise) Remember that the Godhead are no respecter of persons, yet, Lucifer held the highest position of the creation of God! Why?? If you do not understand where I am coming from, no big deal.

You see, that to me is a no/brainier question! But for everyone here, they say where did you get that from?? :fadein: I get it from the Inspired Word of my Master in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. And again, TWICE STATED!
****

 

[Cameron]

John,
What does all this have to do with the topic of this thread? That what happened in the past will be repeated?

Here are the verses you have quoted as core to your understanding:

Ecc 1:4 A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.
Ecc 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
Ecc 1:6 The wind blows to the south and goes around to the north; around and around goes the wind, and on its circuits the wind returns.
Ecc 1:7 All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they flow again.
Ecc 1:8 All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
Ecc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has been already in the ages before us.
Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of later things yet to be among those who come after.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
Ecc 3:12 I perceived that there is nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live;
Ecc 3:13 also that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all his toil--this is God's gift to man.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.
Ecc 3:16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness.
Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.

Here's the deal about the end times: Anyone can take verses from anywhere and say what they want about them. It could very well be possible that in some obscure way only revealed by the Spirit that these passage could have a double meaning. But God has not hidden it. He does want us to understand but people are to busy about their own ideas to really perceive.

The biggest problem to understanding is "us"; our bias, our preconceived notions. So the first task is to make sure that you are empty of yourself and filled with the Spirit seeking His Truth.

Since God does wat us to understand, as I quoted in Dan 9:25 and Matt 24:15, we must assume the obvious; that there are specific teaching on the topic that are clear, detailed and deal with the issue: sequence and order.

Anyone can take a verse from some other place in scripture and use it as a core support to their doctrine. But, I think there is a better way; using passages that are:

1) On the topic of the End Times

2) are also clear and detailed

3) and also have order and sequence

These passages should develop our core understanding first. We let these passages tell us what to think, not the other way around.

The best way to find these core passages is to read through the whole Bible and start taking notes and comparing them. I've found that there are only 6 or 7 stand out Scriptures that fit the criteria better than all the rest.

So that you minimize input from your own thinking, you simply let the connection, alignments, parallel and similarities stand. If God is on the topic, speaking of sequence/order in a clear detailed fashion, then it should all be coherent.

It just so happens that Matthew 24 is one of these passages and Daniel 9 the other. Ecclesiates may have some interesting principles, but I can't encourage anyone to use it as their core understanding on this topic when there are much better Scriptures available.

The principle of the near/far or type/fulfillment or precursor/ultimate is true and Ecclesiates 3:15 may speak to it in an obscure way, but there are better places to make sure it is true. I still find it challenging to take these Ecclesiastes passages out of their native context/topic discussing the futility of men and their actions and desires.

I would cricitze post-tribber for doing the same with 1 Cor 15:52 and pre-tribbers for James 5 with the Judge at the door. Both of these versions of futurism fail at the doctrinal level where one must read-in to the text something foreign to the topic or subject.

Even without Ecclesiates 3:15, it can be plainly shown that there are types of ultimates, and God sets up things in the past to reflect the greater Truths of the future. Hanukkah is one of those things and the associated abomination of desolation in 168 BC.

So, in conclusion, if a Temple is ever rebuilt, it can be desolated in the very same manner that the one in 168 BC was. It has nothing to do with the O.T and N.T., but rather what the abomination represents to God. A nose thumbed at God is the same anytime and anyplace.



:o 8-)

 

[John the Baptist]

"Thy way, O God is in the Sanctuary.." Psalms 77:13

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and sent and signified it by his servant John: who bare record of the Word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, and all things that he saw. Rev. 1:1-2

If one reads Isaiah 8:20 they can readily see the only portion of the Bible that the Godhead wrote for which to test all professed truth by. The testimony part of the Bible are the other 66 books that Holy Men of God penned in their own wordings. The testimony of Christ. We see why Christ came in Isaiah 42:21. To magnify the Ten Commandment Royal Law of the universe and to make it honorable. Man had, & has, made shipwreck of them even today. In bottom line Daniel 7:25 tells of its coming about.

"I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, ..." verse 10. (back to creation week, God's Blessed and set aside for Holy use 7th Day 'Memorial' Sabbath. Psalms 135:13 compare Mark 2:27-28)

"And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle." verse 12-13. (no middle partition or Vail after Christ was sacrificed... the ABOMINATION that made DESOLATE! We have no king but Caesar was the heavenly recorded documentation!)

Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censor; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne .. ." (more furnishings explaining what the incense meant, or pointed to in the earthly sanctuary)

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged ... And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament. .." Revelation 11:18-19 in part.
Judgement? Notice when that is suggested, and we know what is inside the Ark of God. The ten Commandments. See 1 Kings 8:9 & then notice Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 'Whole duty of mankind'. (well, even the universe! See Revelation 22:8-9)

"Here are the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12 (notice the two separate injunctions)

---John

 

[Cameron]

(AMP) Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary [in holiness, away from sin and guilt]. Who is a great God like our God?

(CEV) Everything you do is right, and no other god compares with you.

(DRB) (77:14) Thy way, O God, is in the holy place: who is the great God like our God?

(ESV) Your way, O God, is holy. What god is great like our God?

(GNB) Everything you do, O God, is holy. No god is as great as you.

(HCSB) God, Your way is holy. What god is great like God?

(KJV+) Thy way,1870 O God,430 is in the sanctuary:6944 who4310 is so great1419 a God410 as our God?430

(KJV-1611) Thy way, O God, is in the Sanctuarie: who is so great a God, as our God?

(LITV) O God, your way is in holiness; who is a god, great like God?

(MKJV) Your way, O God, is in holiness; who is so great a God as our God?

(WEB) Your way, God, is in the sanctuary. What god is great like God?

(Webster) Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God!

(YLT) O God, in holiness is Thy way, Who is a great god like God?

I think the Amplified captures the meaning the best. K&D Hebrew commentary is quick topoint this out:

"The primary passage Exo_15:11 (cf. Psa_68:25) shows that בּקּדשׁ is not to be rendered “in the sanctuary†(lxx ἐν τῷ ἁγίῳ), but “in holiness†(Symmachus ἐν ἁγιασμῷ). Holy and glorious in love and in anger. "

KJV1611 Exo 15:11 Who is like vnto thee, O Lord, amongst the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holinesse, fearefull in praises, doing wonders!

So this is another example where the KJV is shown to be just another translation subject to flaws of men. There's not on perfect English translation.

(GNB) Isa 8:19 But people will tell you to ask for messages from fortunetellers and mediums, who chirp and mutter. They will say, "After all, people should ask for messages from the spirits and consult the dead on behalf of the living."
Isa 8:20 You are to answer them, "Listen to what the LORD is teaching you! Don't listen to mediums---what they tell you cannot keep trouble away."

The LITV I think translates it in the sense you are looking for:
(LITV) Isa 8:20 To the Law and to the Testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because there is no dawn to them!

The testimony part of the Bible are the other 66 books that Holy Men of God penned in their own wordings.

The Law and the Testimony made up the entire counsel of God in 750 BC.
I doubt the Psalm were widely accepted, available or even complete. Most of the Prophets were not yet. All that they would have had was the Pentateuch, Ruth, Judges, Joshua and Job...maybe 1 Samuel so I count 10 or so books of the Bible in Isaiah's day. But since God is timeless and all-knowing, I can grant you that He had all 66 in mind not for the original audience but for future audiences.

And your point John about the Testimony, no veil and the Open of the Temple in Heaven?

My point regarding Revelation 11:15-19 is simply that it occurs at the 7th Trumpet and the the things that happen at the 7th Trumpet perfectly align with the completion of the 70 Sevens.

Each of the 6 items promised in Daniel 9:24 can find their perfect physical and literal match in either Revelation 10:7, 11:15 or 11:19 if we see Christ coming to earth in a literal and physical return to Rule.

 

[John the Baptist]

OK: It took you long enough to get to trashing the K.J., huh? But, I got to be nice, our friend Victor says! :wink: But pick & choose as you want is ok with me.

And play that game?? Ok, some needless guesswork! Maybe the desolation that you folk are looking for will be the Pope setting up camp & building a sanctuary in Israel, huh? (you know, APOSTATE Israel)

The slaughter of the Revelation 17:1-5 ones is unimportant at that time period, for they are already THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH, the WORD says! And EACH ONE HAS HIS OWN LITTLE SANCTUARY, you see??? :o Which one is it that you choose from??????

Naw friend: Ezekiel 9 is speaking of the REPEAT one of Israel of old.
These ones had Christ with HIS VIRGIN DOCTRINES at one time! And if the seat at Adventist G.C. Headquarters needs removing like N.Y. 9/11??? We will see God doing that as He see's fit. That is NO CONCERN OF MINE!

---John

 

[ddubsolo85]

Cameron wrote:

How can a future Temple be made sacred in the first place if God is in our hearts and not in the Temple? How could anything abominate or desolate a place that can not be made sacred?

I look at from the standpont that the believers are the Temple as it is the believers who possess Jesus Christ.

Therefore, what will be desolated is the believers in Jesus Christ during the great tribulation. So rather than a place, it is people, and has nothing to do with an actual physical building.

Cameron wrote:

This topic also deals with when one thinks the Old Covenant ended and and the New Covenant began.

I agree. And I don't believe the Old Covenant has ended. There is nothing in the Bible that says it has. As a matter of fact, there are several scriptures that state we're under the Old Covenant, and NONE (zero, zilch, nada!!!) that say we're under the New Covenant!

I believe that this subject (Old Covenant or New Covenant) is the cause of much of the confusion we have in regards to prophecy. I think it is CRITICAL that we first understand this topic. We can't progress until we correct this error. It's like saying that 1+1=3, then doing all of your math based on that conclusion.

God Bless!

 

[Cameron]

I believe that this subject (Old Covenant or New Covenant) is the cause of much of the confusion we have in regards to prophecy. I think it is CRITICAL that we first understand this topic. We can't progress until we correct this error. It's like saying that 1+1=3, then doing all of your math based on that conclusion.

So, you would accept Matthew 5:17 at face value?

And in your mind, we are grafted into them? Romans 11?

 

[Cameron]

OK: It took you long enough to get to trashing the K.J., huh? But, I got to be nice, our friend Victor says! But pick & choose as you want is ok with me.

I'm not a KJV trasher. I love it and still have most of my scriptures memorized in it. But I'm also recognize it is just another good English translation that has its flaws and is no longer written in contemporary English. Personally, I prefer quoting in 1611 when it comes to KJV. But unless you speak KJ English all the time as your mother tongue, you only fool yourself to its superiority.

And play that game?? Ok, some needless guesswork! Maybe the desolation that you folk are looking for will be the Pope setting up camp & building a sanctuary in Israel, huh? (you know, APOSTATE Israel)

Pope? I hope not. I think that's the realm of 7th Day Ads and JR Church. The Devil desires that the Church bite its own tail.

The slaughter of the Revelation 17:1-5 ones is unimportant at that time period, for they are already THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH, the WORD says! And EACH ONE HAS HIS OWN LITTLE SANCTUARY, you see??? Which one is it that you choose from??????

Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,
Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk."
Rev 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality.
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."

I choose Rev. 16:19
Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

The "great" City = "great" Babylon = Mystery Babylon = Harlot = cities of the nations and their systems and rulers whose spiritual drift is in prostitution away from God. That would be our world today; the kingdoms of the earth.

Naw friend: Ezekiel 9 is speaking of the REPEAT one of Israel of old.
These ones had Christ with HIS VIRGIN DOCTRINES at one time! And if the seat at Adventist G.C. Headquarters needs removing like N.Y. 9/11??? We will see God doing that as He see's fit. That is NO CONCERN OF MINE!

Ezekiel 9 speaks of the "mark" given to protect those who are not spiritual prostitutes. A clear allusion to Rev. 7's marking and God's preparation for Judgment. and wrath that the world is clearly recognizing is at hand in the 6th Seal.

 

[John the Baptist]

Ezekiel 9 speaks of the "mark" given to protect those who are not spiritual prostitutes. A clear allusion to Rev. 7's marking and God's preparation for Judgment. and wrath that the world is clearly recognizing is at hand in the 6th Seal.
_________________
Always willing to listen and consider.
Cameron Fultz
Author of Prophecy's Architecture: How to build an End Times Doctrine (Strongtower Publishing: http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/)
ISBN 0970433069

******
I suggest that you do some more study on this. This 'fold' was not the ones on Revelation 17:1-5 or Revelation 18:4 ones! And the sigh & cry ones were the only ones marked as not being slaughtered. Begin at MY SANCTUARY surely is not these ones of Rev. 17, nor Revelation 3:9 huh!

---John

PS: Hay, me again! :fadein: Remember the Eccl. verses. Revelation 7 ones are nothing new, because God told us! But the Ezekiel 9 story is the repeat of this 144000 work! He tells us one died in Christ, and the other will be perhaps translated? All else are slaughtered. 70 AD & repeat!

 

[Cameron]

I suggest that you do some more study on this. This 'fold' was not the ones on Revelation 17:1-5 or Revelation 18:4 ones! And the sigh & cry ones were the only ones marked as not being slaughtered. Begin at MY SANCTUARY surely is not these ones of Rev. 17, nor Revelation 3:9 huh!

This trail you are leading me on is fine and interesting and I’m listening, but I still don’t see your point or its relevancy to our topic of whether the Temple can be desolated.

I’d like to stop guessing at what you are implying. Tell me how I should think.