Is it necessary to pray for forgiveness daily?

[AVBunyan]

Do we pray the Lord's prayer once and only once? Before salvation? No, we pray the Lord's prayer many times during our walk with Christ. And we ask Him for forgiveness every time time we do so.
"And forgive us our sins" "And forgive us our debts"
If we are not to ask forgiveness even after the fact of salvation then why did Christ include it as He taught us to pray?
Yes, I understand what you're saying AV and for the most part I agree with you. But there must be a reason Christ taught the prayer as He did.

Potluck – this forgiveness and Matt 6 – come let us reason together my friend. Let’s take the verses as they stand for whom they were directed and what time period is involved.

1. Context:
Prior to Calvary (you know this), Kingdom message (“thy kingdom come†– kingdom of heaven – a Jewish, earthly kingdom), speaking to disciples (Jewish under the law) – Mercy are we on shaky ground or what!?!

2. Actual text:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
The text says – No forgiving of others = no forgiveness from God. Besides being under the law it appears that part of their requirements for getting into the kingdom were confession and asking forgiveness – can’t get around it – The sin payment had not been made yet.
Now…let’s look at Paul….after Calvary and Christ dying for sins.
What is the message today? I Cor. 15:1-5 – One must believe that Christ died for sins – done deal. Nowhere does Paul require asking forgiveness. Read Eph 1:7 again:
Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The verse says we have forgiveness in Christ. Now unfortunately try this experiment – think a bad thought (bummer)…now read the verse…does it say you have forgiveness or not? Where does Paul say you have to ask forgiveness?

Well, then you may say….â€ÂWhat about I John 1:9?†Written to the circumcism by the apostle to the circumcism where no confession – no forgiveness – similar to Matt 6. Doctrinally applies to tribulation where, once again, Israel is seeking to get into the kingdom and may quite possible apply to being already in the future earthly kingdom. Remember, passages can be both historical and prophetical. At any rate in Heb-Rev you are again on shaky ground trying to make it fit church age doctrine.

Summary – Jesus tells Jewish disciples (under the law prior to Calvary) that if they want to be forgiven they have to forgive – Paul says all over the place that the saint is in Christ and forgiven.

Again, God looks at you as being in Christ seated in heavenly places – Your judicial position, as far as he is concerned, is in Christ and perfect without sin – Down here you and I may be a walking wreck! :-D

Take your pick – Jewish disciples under the law in the Gospels or the redeemed saint, forgiven in Christ in this age of grace.
Didn’t say it was easy…2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

That is why Paul says study… II Tim. 2:15. :wink:

God bless :D

 

[Heidi]

Potluck – this forgiveness and Matt 6 – come let us reason together my friend. Let’s take the verses as they stand for whom they were directed and what time period is involved.

1. Context:
Prior to Calvary (you know this), Kingdom message (“thy kingdom come†– kingdom of heaven – a Jewish, earthly kingdom), speaking to disciples (Jewish under the law) – Mercy are we on shaky ground or what!?!

2. Actual text:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
The text says – No forgiving of others = no forgiveness from God. Besides being under the law it appears that part of their requirements for getting into the kingdom were confession and asking forgiveness – can’t get around it – The sin payment had not been made yet.
Now…let’s look at Paul….after Calvary and Christ dying for sins.
What is the message today? I Cor. 15:1-5 – One must believe that Christ died for sins – done deal. Nowhere does Paul require asking forgiveness. Read Eph 1:7 again:
Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The verse says we have forgiveness in Christ. Now unfortunately try this experiment – think a bad thought (bummer)…now read the verse…does it say you have forgiveness or not? Where does Paul say you have to ask forgiveness?

Well, then you may say….â€ÂWhat about I John 1:9?†Written to the circumcism by the apostle to the circumcism where no confession – no forgiveness – similar to Matt 6. Doctrinally applies to tribulation where, once again, Israel is seeking to get into the kingdom and may quite possible apply to being already in the future earthly kingdom. Remember, passages can be both historical and prophetical. At any rate in Heb-Rev you are again on shaky ground trying to make it fit church age doctrine.

Summary – Jesus tells Jewish disciples (under the law prior to Calvary) that if they want to be forgiven they have to forgive – Paul says all over the place that the saint is in Christ and forgiven.

Again, God looks at you as being in Christ seated in heavenly places – Your judicial position, as far as he is concerned, is in Christ and perfect without sin – Down here you and I may be a walking wreck! :-D

Take your pick – Jewish disciples under the law in the Gospels or the redeemed saint, forgiven in Christ in this age of grace.
Didn’t say it was easy…2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

That is why Paul says study… II Tim. 2:15. :wink:

God bless :D

1 John 1:8, we have to confess when we sin, both for ourselves and our relationsip to God. Then God pretty much says, "it's taken care of" becuase of Christs' death. But we have to confess them which is an expression of repentance and remorse.

 

[Heidi]

You misunderstand the doctrine of election - He died for the elect only - his people - the elect. He did not die for every man for that would be universalism.

His sacrifice was sufficient for those whom he died for.

God bless

No, Av, read the bible carefully. It says that Jesus died for all, for many, and for few. Put them together and what do you get? Jesus died for all, but only few (or many which is relative to whom he's speaking), will accept it. That means that only the elect will come to God. But the key is that since none of us knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to all.
That interpretation contradicts zero scripture. So you need to use allscripture when interpreting the bible.

So from the perspective of man, everyone has a chance to be saved. But from the perspective of God, only the elect are. Universalism is that God will save all men which is not biblical. Salvation is merely open to all men because no man knows if he is being called or not. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[destiny]

Heres the verse..
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness – 1 John 1:9.

 

[AVBunyan]

Jesus died for all, but only few (or many which is relative to whom he's speaking), will accept it. That means that only the elect will come to God. But the key is that since none of us knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to all.
So from the perspective of man, everyone has a chance to be saved.

Heidi - I understand that we do not know who the elect are - that is why the greatest soul winners of yester-year were Calvanists - They knew the elect were out there - they didn't who they were, so...they went and preached worldwide and let God do the work.

In the strictiest sense of the doctrine all do not have a chance - only those whom Christ died for - sounds harsh but that is the reality of the doctrine.

Our duty the? Go and give the gospel and let the word be used - let the Spirit draw and God get the glory.
For others here - Christ did not die for everybody for if that were the case then men who did not "accept" would go to hell with Christ dying for their sins - that is crazy. Christ's blood was for whom he died for.

BTW - the topic is forgiveness - I do not want to turn it into a thread on Election if possible. My apology Mods if I have done this.

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - I understand that we do not know who the elect are - that is why the greatest soul winners of yester-year were Calvanists - They knew the elect were out there - they didn't who they were, so...they went and preached worldwide and let God do the work.

In the strictiest sense of the doctrine all do not have a chance - only those whom Christ died for - sounds harsh but that is the reality of the doctrine.

Our duty the? Go and give the gospel and let the word be used - let the Spirit draw and God get the glory.
For others here - Christ did not die for everybody for if that were the case then men who did not "accept" would go to hell with Christ dying for their sins - that is crazy. Christ's blood was for whom he died for.

BTW - the topic is forgiveness - I do not want to turn it into a thread on Election if possible. My apology Mods if I have done this.

God bless

From the persepctive of man, all do have a chance because none of us knows if we are the elect. But from the perspecitive of God, only the elect are saved. So once again, we have to take all of scripture and put it together to form the correct interpretation.

But what happens is that if we say that only the elect are saved, then many people feel left out. So I use all of scripture to assure people that everyone has a chance to be saved.

I do believe in Reformed Theology but do not agree with the Limited Atonement of Calvin because it negelects to include everyone having a chance to be saved, from the perspective of man.

Buty I agree that we need to get back to the topic which has strayed from forgiveness into election.

 

[AVBunyan]

Why understanding being forgiven is important – I believe the saint that knows he is fully forgiven:

1. Will have a better view of God.
2. Will live more holy out of a debt of love and thanksgiving because he knows he is forgiven – won’t want to abuse the grace given.
3. Will not live under doubt or confusion thinking he didn’t ask forgiveness or forget to ask or missed a few.
4. Will more easily forgive others because he is forgiven: Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
5. Will let grace teach him how to live – not the law…Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

God bless 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

But what happens is that if we say that only the elect are saved, then many people feel left out. So I use all of scripture to assure people that everyone has a chance to be saved.

Heidi - myself, and other grace believers, do not make election an issue to those we give the gospel to! :o Why would we do that? :o We understand I Cor. 2:14.

I do not go to a lost person and say, "You know, the doctrinee of election is...." :o

So, then..."what happens is that if we say that only the elect are saved" - don't say those things or bring it up - the message is I Cor. 15:1-5 - i seek to keep it simple - I do not discuss election with those I'm witnessing to. I do not teach election to you converts. I teach, "Go and give the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5".

I trust this helps.

God bless

 

[Guest]

In an attempt to get back to the thrust of the OP - I reread the title of the post:

"Is it necessary...."

I do not know if this is what jg had intended or not - but I believe the key here is the word "necessary".

As a believer - I do not believe it is "necessary" for my salvation to seek forgivness every day for every sin. The Cross of Christ is sufficient to cover my past, present and future sins.

However - with that said, I believe it is imporant in the life of the believer to seek forgiveness for the sins that we commit because it holds us accountable so that we do not commit that sin again. To help us to grow in the likeness of Christ.

If we cannot seek forgiveness for our sins, will we be able to offer forgiveness when someone sins against us?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. As a believer - I do not believe it is "necessary" for my salvation to seek forgivness every day for every sin. The Cross of Christ is sufficient to cover my past, present and future sins.

2. However - with that said, I believe it is imporant in the life of the believer to seek forgiveness for the sins that we commit because it holds us accountable so that we do not commit that sin again. To help us to grow in the likeness of Christ.

3. If we cannot seek forgiveness for our sins, will we be able to offer forgiveness when someone sins against us?

1. Amen - we agree here.

2. Let's get the doctrine straight or at least the wording to use - One cannot ask to receive something he already has - Eph. 1:7.

So, then as I mentioned earlier...Acknowledge to God - confess to God - Acknowledge you've sinned - thank God for the forgiveness that you have and go and do that sin no more but... don't ask God for forgiveness for I believe God will say (reverently paraphrasing here), "Look to Calvary - your forgiveness has been taken care of. I cannot 're-give' what I've already given to you."

I know this sounds picky but as long as saints keep asking for forgiveness than you are telling new saints that they are not yet forgiven and this creates confusion and more.

Why do many here want to fight the blessed truth that you are fully forgiven?
Why are you seeking to prove you are really not?
What is the advantage to this?

Many saints live with guilt and partly because of the lack of understanding the work at Calvary where forgivenss was finalized.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

But we have to confess them which is an expression of repentance and remorse.

Please show me in scripture the consequences of the saint in the body of Christ not asking for forgiveness. Sounds good but show me doctrinally.

Thank you

 

[Guest]

1. Amen - we agree here.

2. Let's get the doctrine straight or at least the wording to use - One cannot ask to receive something he already has - Eph. 1:7.

So, then as I mentioned earlier...Acknowledge to God - confess to God - Acknowledge you've sinned - thank God for the forgiveness that you have and go and do that sin no more but... don't ask God for forgiveness for I believe God will say (reverently paraphrasing here), "Look to Calvary - your forgiveness has been taken care of. I cannot 're-give' what I've already given to you."

I know this sounds picky but as long as saints keep asking for forgiveness than you are telling new saints that they are not yet forgiven and this creates confusion and more.

Why do many here want to fight the blessed truth that you are fully forgiven?
Why are you seeking to prove you are really not?
What is the advantage to this?

Many saints live with guilt and partly because of the lack of understanding the work at Calvary where forgivenss was finalized.

God bless

AV - what I was attempting to say was that confessing our sins provides accountability on our part.

In other words, forgiveness has already been given at the Cross - that work is finished. Confession, as I understand it, is not seeking forgiveness but holding me accountable - personal realiszation that I sinned.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - myself, and other grace believers, do not make election an issue to those we give the gospel to! :o Why would we do that? :o We understand I Cor. 2:14.

I do not go to a lost person and say, "You know, the doctrinee of election is...." :o

So, then..."what happens is that if we say that only the elect are saved" - don't say those things or bring it up - the message is I Cor. 15:1-5 - i seek to keep it simple - I do not discuss election with those I'm witnessing to. I do not teach election to you converts. I teach, "Go and give the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5".

I trust this helps.

God bless

Helps what? :o I already agree with you on that. What we should say to unbelievers is if you want salvation you can have it by accepting Christ as your savior. That's all they need to know at that point.

 

[AVBunyan]

Helps what?

I figured you thought I made election and issue to lost people.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

AV - what I was attempting to say was that confessing our sins provides accountability on our part.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here - maybe I'm just not understanding your posts or most likely I am not making mine very clear. :

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Basically you're saying the same thing as AV since the results are both identical. Yes, the gift is offered to all but not all will accept it. Therein lies the elect, referencing scripture.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I am NOT saying the same thing as AV. He is saying that God has died ONLY for those select people. I am saying He died for ALL men but not everyone chooses to use the gift.

Analogy.

AV is saying that only 2 of the four children in a house got a gift for Christmas. The other 2 got nothing.

I am saying that all four children got a gift for Christmas. Only 2, though, opened them and kept them. The other two threw their gifts in the garbage.

Big difference.

Regards

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

AV,
Just to make sure that I am understanding what you are saying, are you saying that you have not asked for forgiveness for anything since the day you got saved?


If I buy a new bowl, bought and paid for, then I own it. It is mine forever. It does not stop being my possession when I wash it. It does, on occasion, need to be cleansed.

In the same manner, I, a born again, blood bought, spirit filled Christian need to be cleaned off when I get dirty. The Spiritual scotchguard does indeed promise that my salvation is assured, even if I sin. Nevertheless, I stay in a right relationship with my Lord when I confess my sin to Him, repent for it, and ask for forgiveness.

If I don't, then like the bowl that own, and use, and that gets dirty in the process of being used even in its sanctified use, I get kinda crusty, and some of the dirt can sprout and grow. When I am clean, then I am ready for use. Even a bowl that sits on a shelf and does nothing for a while needs to be rinsed off before using.

 

[Heidi]

I figured you thought I made election and issue to lost people.

God bless

Oh, no. I completely agree with you.

 

[Heidi]

AV,
Just to make sure that I am understanding what you are saying, are you saying that you have not asked for forgiveness for anything since the day you got saved?


If I buy a new bowl, bought and paid for, then I own it. It is mine forever. It does not stop being my possession when I wash it. It does, on occasion, need to be cleansed.

In the same manner, I, a born again, blood bought, spirit filled Christian need to be cleaned off when I get dirty. The Spiritual scotchguard does indeed promise that my salvation is assured, even if I sin. Nevertheless, I stay in a right relationship with my Lord when I confess my sin to Him, repent for it, and ask for forgiveness.

If I don't, then like the bowl that own, and use, and that gets dirty in the process of being used even in its sanctified use, I get kinda crusty, and some of the dirt can sprout and grow. When I am clean, then I am ready for use. Even a bowl that sits on a shelf and does nothing for a while needs to be rinsed off before using.

I think what Av is saying is that we don't need to ask because it's already done. All we need to do is confess, feel remorse, and have the faith that Jesus died for all of our sins.

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

In the strictiest sense of the doctrine all do not have a chance - only those whom Christ died for - sounds harsh but that is the reality of the doctrine.

Why would that be harsh. Christ died for every soul that every liveth. But your view that not all have a chance is hyper-contradictive of most of Scripture. When I read your post it seems that you have a totally different Gospel than that Christianity has always believed and practiced.

Here are just some texts which totally reject your view:
Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:17-22, John 1:7-9, 10; John 5:28-29, John 6:39, John 6:44-45, John 6:51, John 10:2, 11, 15, John 12:32, I Cor 15:35-37, I Cor 15:45-49, II Cor 5:14-15, Col 1:20, Eph 1:10, II Pet 3:9.
These are the obvious ones with many more that infer and suggest that Christ did indeed, redeem, reconcile, justifiy, made righteous all men from the judgement of death. He freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

For others here - Christ did not die for everybody for if that were the case then men who did not "accept" would go to hell with Christ dying for their sins - that is crazy. Christ's blood was for whom he died for.

That is because you apparently do not understand the Gospel of Christ.
His Blood was indeed for those He died for, mankind. There is no exception whatsoever. No man will be lost to the curse or judgement through Adam.
Did He die for sinners? Or did He die for the Righteous? Were there any righteous?
He is called the Second Adam for a good reason.

Buty I agree that we need to get back to the topic which has strayed from forgiveness into election

However, the view of many here is that forgiveness is equated with election and there is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to that assumption or understanding.