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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is it necessary to pray for forgiveness daily?
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
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Guest
Vic C.
It so happens that the believers are part of a much larger body of humanity that was effected by the Cross, namely all human beings. Obviously, then speaking TO believes would entail including them when speaking of the broader group, mankind.
You are bypassing the fall and redemption of mankind. You are dwelling on the walk which is totally irrelevant if Christ did not come and did not accomplish His Work on the Cross. Man was created to be in union with God. It has nothing directly relevant either to the fall or redemption. It was the same thing Adam was doing as a created creature, walking, working with God in the universe BEFORE he fell. When he fell, then mankind was no longer able to fulfil his created mandate. Christ restored mankind, all men to that status. God is not partial. He is not particular, He is not a respector of persons. He wanted each individual to choose his/her eternal state, thus He did the restoring to LIFE so we could do just that. How merciful and just is that?
So what. The whole Bible is directed ONLY at believers. It is written with the goal of union with Christ. Just because Paul is addressing the believers at Ephesus, does not mean he will not address the Work of Christ on the Cross. It is why we even have believers in Ephesus, why Paul can even preach.
It so happens that the believers are part of a much larger body of humanity that was effected by the Cross, namely all human beings. Obviously, then speaking TO believes would entail including them when speaking of the broader group, mankind.
[/quote:593df][/quote:593df] I think you may be showing that ignorance. One must be IN Christ, being Saved, which is our union and communion with God. The walk. this is all made possible by the redemption, reconciling, justification of man to God through Christ's work on the Cross.
You are bypassing the fall and redemption of mankind. You are dwelling on the walk which is totally irrelevant if Christ did not come and did not accomplish His Work on the Cross. Man was created to be in union with God. It has nothing directly relevant either to the fall or redemption. It was the same thing Adam was doing as a created creature, walking, working with God in the universe BEFORE he fell. When he fell, then mankind was no longer able to fulfil his created mandate. Christ restored mankind, all men to that status. God is not partial. He is not particular, He is not a respector of persons. He wanted each individual to choose his/her eternal state, thus He did the restoring to LIFE so we could do just that. How merciful and just is that?
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Imagican
Guest
AVBunyan said:Mec - Did Calvary pass you by or something? :o
Was Christ's shedding of blood and death and resurrection not suffcient for your sins?
Are you still under OT law where you have to keep going back because the bulls and goats were not sufficent?
What is so hard about?
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:roll:
Christ died once - forgiveness for saints is one time act - finished.
Arre you going to tell me that when you sin then you go back to an unforgiven state or that sin remains unforgiven untill your "powerful forgvieness request" clears it out?
Do you mean your "power forgiveness request" can re-apply the blood? :o
That's some power there!!! :o
Hey Mec - are you really a Catholic? Because you sound like it here? They have to go to priests and mass to get clean and you have to ask forgivenes - What's the difference? :o
Av,
He he he!!! Not 'QUITE'. Our Catholic brothers out there would take SERIOUS offense to you comparing me to them. I PROMISE.
We are TOLD that we ARE to follow the COMMANDMENTS of Christ. Av, what happens when we DON'T follow that which Christ TOLD us we MUST follow?
Do you TRULY 'believe' that ALL one MUST do is 'confess' Christ as their Savior? Yet we KNOW that Faith WITHOUT 'works' IS DEAD. And it TAKES 'faith' in ORDER to BE 'saved'. Yet we HAVE that 'faith is DEAD' that produces NO WORKS.
Catholic...............you are a 'funny guy'.
Christ's DEATH was ONCE AND FOR ALL. But that is NOT to 'believe' in some kind of UNIVERSALISM. We were TOLD to 'run the race' as IF we MEAN TO WIN IT. What would be the PURPOSE of such statements IF there were NO WAY to LOOSE what has been 'given'?
What God GIVES through Jesus Christ HE IS CERTAINLY ABLE to 'take away'. That is EXACTLY what I MEAN by CONDITIONAL. ALL are NOT 'saved'. Your 'election' proposition is WEAK as well. There ARE the 'elect'. But this is NOT ALL that are 'saved'. If so, then there would be NO NEED for witness or testimony.
I offered you scripture before that you dismissed for it was NOT what you chose to accept. In these words Christ offers WHO are to BE 'saved' and WHO are NOT. We EVEN have the message that there were MANY that followed Christ and when He 'pointed OUT' exactly to that which I refer, MANY turned away and NEVER followed Him again. Indicating that these were "HEARERS of the Word ONLY". Thought there was 'something to gain' by following Him, but when the TRUTH was 'pointed out', in their hearts they were convicted and turned and walked AWAY.
And there is NO MAN MADE LAW that is ABLE to 'save'. Salvation IS contained within the 'circumcision of the heart'. That 'changing' that can ONLY come from Spirit. And JUST as one is ABLE to receive the Spirit, they are ALSO able to REJECT IT.
Do you LOVE ME? Do you know what MOST say when confronted with LOST LOVE? You NEVER loved me to START with. An EASY OUT. One of a 'pair' drops the ball in a relationship and the ONLY 'out' that they have is; "you NEVER loved me to start with'. When in REALITY, the other HAD loved them DEARLY and that love was 'allowed to wither'. To the point that what LITTLE love that was left was NOT ENOUGH to 'put it BACK together.
I mention this for those that belive in OSAS are AWFUL QUICK to offer this; 'Well, that only means that they WEREN'T 'saved' to START with. Yet the Bible speaks CONTRARY to this 'belief'. Stating that ONCE one COMES to the 'truth', (is SAVED), that IF they 'turn away' their LAST state IS worse than the beginning'. A PRIME indication, (if not OUTRUGHT STATEMENT), that one IS able to CHOOSE what they follow. And IF they SO CHOOSE, they are PLENTY able to 'turn away' and LOOSE that which they were 'given'. For the GIFT IS CONDITIONAL. We have half a BOOK offering these conditions.
NO, one CANNOT 'work' their way to heaven. But there WILL be 'works' apparent in those that 'follow' Christ. And IF one 'turns away' from that which IS COMMANDED, then there is NO MORE OFFERED than that which has ALREADY BEEN offered. Yes, one CAN 'turn back', but that SAME PERSON may NOT EVER TURN BACK BEFORE THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH. Just as IF the Prodigal son had DIED or made a 'different' decision, his father would have NEVER been able to accept him back into his open arms.
MEC
Oh that is funny :-DVic C. said:
My forehead is one big bump!!!!! :o
I just want folks to see that they are forgiven - is that such a bad thing? :o
People think they just have to help God out don't they?
I really believe it all starts out with understanding depravity...
Psa 39:5 verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
And one more time with feeling...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
The answer you ask...
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
God was doing just fine in eternity without us,
God bless 8-)
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Imagican
Guest
Oh, And JUST as we are able to GROW in Christ, we ARE able to REMAIN stagnant, or to EVEN DIE 'without Christ'.
OSAS is NOT Biblical nor is it EVEN INDICATED except for those that become COMPLACENT in their 'belief'. Just as Billy Graham STARTED OUT telling TRUTH, He ENDED UP offering a WATERED DOWN version of the 'religion' that BARELY even RESEMBLES what I would considre 'Christianity'. What OFTEN 'starts' with CONVICTION ends up being an OPEN ENDED 'belief'. That is NOT what Christ EXPECTS out of us. He EXPECTS us to 'fight the GOOD fight'. One CANNOT 'fight' LAYING DOWN.
MEC
OSAS is NOT Biblical nor is it EVEN INDICATED except for those that become COMPLACENT in their 'belief'. Just as Billy Graham STARTED OUT telling TRUTH, He ENDED UP offering a WATERED DOWN version of the 'religion' that BARELY even RESEMBLES what I would considre 'Christianity'. What OFTEN 'starts' with CONVICTION ends up being an OPEN ENDED 'belief'. That is NOT what Christ EXPECTS out of us. He EXPECTS us to 'fight the GOOD fight'. One CANNOT 'fight' LAYING DOWN.
MEC
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Imagican
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But you MUST admit that I've been as 'busy as a centipede in a 'toe countin' contest'.
NO, NOT 'works' per se. We are discussing the ABILITY to LOOSE Salvation once one HAS been 'saved'. If I were to throw you a life vest yet you refused to 'take it', YOU WOULD DROWN. Just as PETER 'almost DID' for his LACK OF FAITH.
Your offering is that God will 'forgive' even those that DON'T believe. Or that these are UNABLE to STOP believing having ONCE come to the 'truth. I don't believe EITHER one to BE TRUTH.
Av, I CANNOT IMAGINE 'loosing' what I have been 'given'. I cannot IMAGINE a 'time' in the future that I would EVER be able to DENY CHRIST. But I DON'T KNOW this. I just BELIEVE it.
There have been MANY that have offered UNDERSTANDING that is BEYOND what MOST of us will EVER understand. Yet EVEN some of these have TURNED their BACKS on God. Some to even 'go out' among the brethren speaking OUT AGAINST GOD AND HIS SON. You would have me believe that these were NEVER 'saved' to START with. That IF they had TRULY been 'saved' then they COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS. I ask you this: Where do YOU come up with such a 'belief'?
MEC
NO, NOT 'works' per se. We are discussing the ABILITY to LOOSE Salvation once one HAS been 'saved'. If I were to throw you a life vest yet you refused to 'take it', YOU WOULD DROWN. Just as PETER 'almost DID' for his LACK OF FAITH.
Your offering is that God will 'forgive' even those that DON'T believe. Or that these are UNABLE to STOP believing having ONCE come to the 'truth. I don't believe EITHER one to BE TRUTH.
Av, I CANNOT IMAGINE 'loosing' what I have been 'given'. I cannot IMAGINE a 'time' in the future that I would EVER be able to DENY CHRIST. But I DON'T KNOW this. I just BELIEVE it.
There have been MANY that have offered UNDERSTANDING that is BEYOND what MOST of us will EVER understand. Yet EVEN some of these have TURNED their BACKS on God. Some to even 'go out' among the brethren speaking OUT AGAINST GOD AND HIS SON. You would have me believe that these were NEVER 'saved' to START with. That IF they had TRULY been 'saved' then they COULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS. I ask you this: Where do YOU come up with such a 'belief'?
MEC
1. Oh, that is a good one!Imagican said:
: How would like to be the shoe salesman that woul have to wait on one of those things! :o 2. OK Mec - waiste high - Can a blood bought, redeemed, sealed in the body of Christ unto the day of redemption, forgiven, raised to sit in heavenly places in Christ glorified, etc. loose it, give it up, fall away, or wahtever you want to call it? A simple Yes or No.
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One issue with OSAS is how it is lived out.
I have said before that orthropraxis is just as important as orthodoxy. (right action is just as important as right doctrine).
There are those that live out OSAS like it is 'fire insurance'. There is more to heaven and spending eterntiy with God than just 'getting in'.
For those that live OSAS out like it is 'fire insurance' - then they will receive their reward right here on earth.
I, for one, (and I realize that I fail at it all to often) seek and want to live out my life so that my reward is great in heaven - not great on earth.
Moth and fire will destroy these 'works' on earth - I seek that which is unperishable - the reward given to us in heaven.
I have said before that orthropraxis is just as important as orthodoxy. (right action is just as important as right doctrine).
There are those that live out OSAS like it is 'fire insurance'. There is more to heaven and spending eterntiy with God than just 'getting in'.
For those that live OSAS out like it is 'fire insurance' - then they will receive their reward right here on earth.
I, for one, (and I realize that I fail at it all to often) seek and want to live out my life so that my reward is great in heaven - not great on earth.
Moth and fire will destroy these 'works' on earth - I seek that which is unperishable - the reward given to us in heaven.
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Guest
Guest
AVBunyan,
But unfortunately for your view, Christianity was meant, we are created to be in a relationship with our maker. We were created free and communal and you want God to deny His own sovereign plan for our very existance.
You use Rom 3:23 as if it applies to believers only. It does not. It never has. Never will either.
It is referencing Christ's Work on the Cross which is for all of mankind, not exceptions.
so in your view Christ did not even come?
Actually that is not correct. He created us, free and communal just so He could have communion outside of Himself. Christ came to restore mankind to that capability of communion which was lost due to the fall. You whole view destroyes the whole Gospel. You have no purpose of man's creation, in fact deny it by these very words, then deny the Work of Christ on the Cross to redeem mankind from the fall as if the fall never happened.
When one is so confused as to what Christ did and the responsibility of man's response.
How is one confused with what He stated has been the Gospel Truth for 2000 years. It has not changed from what He stated. How can that be confusing. It must be only in your understanding.
NIeither since you do not understand the difference that Mec is even making. that is why you confluent them. But if we are speaking of the Work of Christ, all of His Work is irrevocable as are His promises.
But unfortunately for your view, Christianity was meant, we are created to be in a relationship with our maker. We were created free and communal and you want God to deny His own sovereign plan for our very existance.
You use Rom 3:23 as if it applies to believers only. It does not. It never has. Never will either.
It is referencing Christ's Work on the Cross which is for all of mankind, not exceptions.
Sojourner - you misunderstand so much where I'm coming from that I really don't even know where to begin to try and clear it up for you and I'd like to.sojourner said:
2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
God bless
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AVBunyan,
I find no historical record of Christianity ever believing as you do. Surely not generations for centuries. So could you enlighten me on that score.
You have given no response to the list of texts that I posted which clearly deny your singular positon. Would you care to explain them?
That is quite obvious. But why would I need to know what you believe? You apparently have some parallel gospel supported by some prooftexts but have no understanding of what the Gospel of Christ has always meant and has been believed.
I find no historical record of Christianity ever believing as you do. Surely not generations for centuries. So could you enlighten me on that score.
Unless and until you can give some solid credible support for your view as having been the stalwart of belief in Christianity, the text seems to apply to you.
You have given no response to the list of texts that I posted which clearly deny your singular positon. Would you care to explain them?
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AVBunyan,
I have no attitude towards your personally. You have not shown that your view has any historical witness. Can you show if the Apostles actually believed and taught this view in the first century, how about the 10th century, any century?
Can you show that it has been believed, practiced and preserved as the Gospel Once given, Jude 3.
Your position ignores the texts I posted. What I want to know is how you can justify your view in light of those texts. Your view has totally ignored them. Yet they exist in scripture. So.....
I have no attitude towards your personally. You have not shown that your view has any historical witness. Can you show if the Apostles actually believed and taught this view in the first century, how about the 10th century, any century?
Can you show that it has been believed, practiced and preserved as the Gospel Once given, Jude 3.
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AvBunyan,
Do you agree? If not, then how do your reconcile all of these texts which i have forwarded for you.
Your view, relative to the texts I quoted, denies that Christ saved mankind from the fall. That all men have been redeemed, reconciled, justified, made right with God.
Do you agree? If not, then how do your reconcile all of these texts which i have forwarded for you.
Taken from page 3.
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Guest
Guest
AVBunyan,
Are you sure you even are using scripture as your authority? How can scripture be so confusing that all those that make that claim, by the thousands, all disagree with each other on every single issue.
There is where you err twice. Christ is my authority and History only confirms that authority.
Are you sure you even are using scripture as your authority? How can scripture be so confusing that all those that make that claim, by the thousands, all disagree with each other on every single issue.