Is it necessary to pray for forgiveness daily?

[Guest]

sojourner - do you believe in Universalism?

What is the eternal desitination of Judas?

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

Let's get the doctrine straight or at least the wording to use - One cannot ask to receive something he already has - Eph. 1:7.

But all men have recieved this. If this is the basis of your view, then it is by definition Universalism which you are supporting. Go a little further in the context here to verse 10. Christ not only redeemed mankind, but the very universe. Man is intrinsic to the physical realm. We are part of that physical world. We were made from it, from dust. When man sinned, the whole creation fell with man. Thus if man is to be redeemed, so must the entire universe that fell with him.
You were saved from the fall in verse 7 but you were saved through faith in verse 13-14. If Verse 7 had not occurred, verse 13-14 is moot and meaningless.

Why do many here want to fight the blessed truth that you are fully forgiven?

Because as you are explaining it, it has never existed in the history of Christianity. Could you give any credence that the Apostles believed this way?

Many saints live with guilt and partly because of the lack of understanding the work at Calvary where forgivenss was finalized

That is the most truth you have spoken. They carry guilt because they do not seek forgiveness from their brother, nor from God. It is ALL because they are fooled, mislead by those of your view.
That propitiation was accomplished on the Cross is correct and it is ONLY because of that work that forgiveness is even possible. But forgiveness is not something Christ accomplished on the Cross.
What does this verse mean to you? II Cor 5:20?

 

[Guest]

ALoneVoice,

sojourner - do you believe in Universalism?

What is the eternal desitination of Judas?

Have you actually read what I have written?
Do you even know the meaning of Universalism. I pointed out that one who views Eph 1:7 as a text that all have been forgiven on the Cross, that is the definition of Universalism.
The view I have presented, that of Historcial Christianity, is just the opposite.
Just so you know, If you take AVBunyans view, Judas would be in heaven. He was a disciple of Christ, a believer, thus all of his sins would have been forgiven by Christ on the Cross.

On the other hand, the historical view of Christianity is that if Christ had not redeemed mankind, we all would simply die. We were under the cuse and condemnation of Adam. death. Without redemption of the World, there can be no hell or heaven. There would be no one to live in either place. All would have perished, have been destroyed by death.
That is why the view that Christ forgave all upon the Cross is absurd, there is no hell with that view. Even Universalist believe in hell, though it is a temporary place of chastisement but all will be eventually saved.
AVBunyan does not claim this to his credit, but the description in light of the Gospel, is pure Universalism.

 

[Vic C.]

But all men have recieved this. If this is the basis of your view, then it is by definition Universalism which you are supporting.

I know AV fairly well and I know UR fairly well also; I can say without a doubt that he IS NOT promoting UR. I'd bump him from here by now if he were.

No, he and Ephesians are speaking within the confines of those who have become believers, in part, by hearing then believing.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Those who hear, yet continue 'til death in their disbelief, will experience the "second death".

I'm not a Calvinist, but I do believe in the perseverance of the Saints.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

If He's not your Lord, He's not your Savior. It's as simple as that.

IMO, francisdesales said it best:

I am saying that all four children got a gift for Christmas. Only 2, though, opened them and kept them. The other two threw their gifts in the garbage.

 

[Guest]

Vic C.

know AV fairly well and I know UR fairly well also; I can say without a doubt that he IS NOT promoting UR. I'd bump him from here by now if he were.

Yes, I know, but what thinks he might believe and how they describe or explain it are two different things. Eph 1:7 does not even have believers in veiw directly.

No, he and Ephesians are speaking within the confines of those who have become believers, in part, by hearing then believing.

Which is made possible by the Work of Christ on the Cross. it made it possible which you can read down further in Eph 1:12 were believers finally enter into the picture.

Those who hear, yet continue 'til death in their disbelief, will experience the "second death

As well as those who believed then departed from the faith. They too will be cast with the unbelievers.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I do believe in the perseverance of the Saints.

Yes, if we as believers continue to remain, to abide, to be obedient, to persevere with the Holy Spirit. But believers can quench the Holy Spirit, they can cast off their first faith. They can reject the Master.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Yes, the key phrase, IN CHRIST. do we recieve these blessings when we are unfaithful, when we willingly sin and depart from Him? Are we still IN Christ?

If He's not your Lord, He's not your Savior. It's as simple as that.

It is the other way around. If He were not my Savior, He could not be My Lord. He is My Lord, only because He was my Savior.

IMO, francisdesales said it best:

Quote:
I am saying that all four children got a gift for Christmas. Only 2, though, opened them and kept them. The other two threw their gifts in the garbage.

Yes, I have already agreed with that very good post he had some time back.

 

[Guest]

Just because Judas was a disciple, does not mean that he was a believer.

Let me put it the best way that I know:

Christ death on the Cross is sufficient for all sins of all people; however, it is only effecient for those that believe. Who are those who believe? the elect. Who are the elect? those that believe.

In other words, I do not believe that there has been a pre-ordianed number of believers.

 

[Vic C.]

Eh, we disagree sojourner. I believe from reading Ephesians in it's context, that it is all about and for believers. It doesn't apply to non believers.

Have we considered this? There is no other foundation, not even works.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It's about receiving rewards, not salvation. The passage says we are still saved. It is God who brings about the perseverance , not us.

 

[Guest]

ALoneVoice,

Just because Judas was a disciple, does not mean that he was a believer.

it is the Biblical definition of a believer. A disciple is even more than a simple follower. In the NT, it is baptism that defines the definition of a believer.

Let me put it the best way that I know:

Christ death on the Cross is sufficient for all sins of all people; however, it is only effecient for those that believe. Who are those who believe? the elect. Who are the elect? those that believe.

yes, that is why you cannot say that all men were forgiven on the Cross. It makes it Universal. He propitiated the sins of the world, but propitiation does not mean forgiveness. We are reconciled to God by forgiveness through repentance and confession.

In other words, I do not believe that there has been a pre-ordianed number of believers.

Amen. A Biblical impossibility.

 

[Guest]

Let me add, that while I do not believe in a set number of elect - God, who operates outside of our restraints of time, knows exactly who will be saved.

Disciple means follower, not necessarily a believer. Look up 'son of perdition'. I believe that will help you in your understanding of the role that Judas played.

 

[Guest]

Vic C.

Eh, we disagree sojourner. I believe from reading Ephesians in it's context, that it is all about and for believers. It doesn't apply to non believers.

You are correct, It has nothing to do with either directly. It has all to do with mankind. All of mankind fell through the judgment of Adam. All have been saved from that fall by Grace. Man has nothing to contribute to it in the least.

Have we considered this? There is no other foundation, not even works.

Precisely, that is why man could not restore himself to life, not propitiate his own sins. Only Christ could and did all that work for mankind. Christ is indeed the Savior of the World. For God so loved the World that He gave His Son. It does not say, For God so loved part of the World, or only Some of His creatures, in fact, it also says He came to save sinners. Do you know of any that were not sinners.

I Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Not even germaine to the topic of Eph 1:7.

Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

yes, it is one of the text I did not include which clearly implies that Christ died for all men. All men will be raised in the last day to stand in judgement. If Christ, per chance missed a few, they would be dust, have died and ceased to exist under the condemnation of Adam. There is no need for a judgment of them. They have already been judged, through Adam. How unjust is that?

Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It's about receiving rewards, not salvation. The passage says we are still saved. It is God who brings about the perseverance , not us.

These have nothing to do with perseverence. It is referencing those that indeed have persevered, but not all of our works were done in faith. In order to even get any rewards, one must first remain IN Christ. That is the real prize to obtain at the end of the race. Salvation is a journey to a goal. It is not the means to a goal.

 

[Guest]

aLoneVoice,

Let me add, that while I do not believe in a set number of elect - God, who operates outside of our restraints of time, knows exactly who will be saved.

Yes, that is called foreknowledge. But that does not change what He has revealed to us. That is, "whosoever" believes shall be saved.

Disciple means follower, not necessarily a believer. Look up 'son of perdition'. I believe that will help you in your understanding of the role that Judas played.

Hardly. "Son of Perdition" is only known because the writer gave you some insight into God's foreknowledge in selecting Him. But by any defintion and use of follower, disciple, believer which is synonomous in the Bible, Judas was unquestionably one. I could give you all the references but It is not germaine to the topic at present.

 

[Guest]

How is it not germane? Please provide the list.

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks...It is amazing to me how lightly folks take the cross and what the resurrection really means...First I will offer my opinion and I will come back and support it with scripture....

AV is 100% theologically correct here.....

Alone voice has picked it up perfectly....

It is not necessary to pray and ask for forgiveness daily because if your born again, all past, present and future sins are nailed to the cross....

''IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive'' I will come back to this shortly....but before I do that, I will share my daily ritual....

''Seldom'' does a day go by that I don't ask my Lord for forgiveness...Let me explain....

I know deep down that I am forgiven, praise God!!!!
The reason I ask for forgiveness daily is because it reminds me of the cross and what Jesus did for me...I take the time to reflect on the fact that if not for Jesus taking ''my'' sins on that wonderful glorious cross, I would be doomed to hell for ever.....My salvation does not depend one bit on my asking for forgiveness...If it did, then it would be works....

Why do we confess our sins to each other, for accountability and to set ourselves free...Sin leads to depression, sin leads to a miserable Christian Life...Sin leads to a defeated Christian Life...To sin is to mis the mark...If we don't confess our sins to another or to God, then sin becomes normal...
and we begin to compromise...I was there many years ago, so I know.....

I will be back with the scriptures as soon as I put it together...

 

[jgredline]

I'm not a Calvinist, but I do believe in the perseverance of the Saints.

So is it fair to say that your a fellow Calminianist? 8-)

 

[Guest]

ALoneVoice,

How is it not germane? Please provide the list.

If it is not germaine, how could there be a list? I'm really not following your question.
It comes from I Cor 3:12 in reference to what I had stated about Eph 1:7. Eph is not even addressing believers, so how would works or no works even be relevant?

Please explain?

 

[biblecatholic]

Hi Folks....
Here is a very simple question with some bub questions....

Is it necessary to pray for forgiveness of our sins daily?...
Do we need to go to a priest and confess our sins?

If so, why?

If not, why?



Your opinion will do, but scripture will add credibility....

dont know how i missed the confession to a priest question.
to be living our faith we need to confess our sins and try not to commit them again, but we we do we do it all over again.

in the bible noware does it say to confess not to a man and only to God!

matt 9:1-8 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
3At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"
4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7And the man got up and went home. 8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

In John 20:21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'" How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him...so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn't get it, verses 22-23 say this, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn't expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest...it is God's power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest. John Martignoni

john 20:23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

2 cor 5:17-28 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

the prayer of a priest forgives sins
james 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.


matt 3:8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

 

[jgredline]

Col 1:12-14
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

The Greek word for redemption is ἀπολύτρωσις This word means
a releasing effected by payment of ransom....liberation procured by the payment of a ransom....In other words we were purchased by the blood of the lamb....

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The Greek word for remission is ἄφεσις This greek word means
release from bondage or imprisonment., forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty.

 

[Imagican]

How can there BE repentance WITHOUT recognition? And HOW could there BE recognition WITHOUT one BEING convicted to ASK FOR FORGIVENESS?

While Christ DID die for ALL sin, that IS conditional.

Conditions? MOST DEFINITELY.

First condition is to BELIEVE on Christ. For without this belief; there is NO forgiveness.

Now, HOW IS ONE GOING to BELIEVE and NOT be convicted of their sins upon performance? And HOW is one that is convicted going to LIVE WITH THEMSELVES without confession and repentance? The only way I can percieve is to IGNORE that conviction for the sake of 'something else'. Some 'other understanding' than that which has been offered.

Folks, positive reinforcement is a DANGEROUS thing. For IF one repeats something ENOUGH, they will eventually BELIEVE it rather it be truth or a lie.

We are to serve in fear and trembling. NEVER forgetting that we are NOT WORTHY. Never forgettting the PRICE that was paid for our Salvation. And what WAS that PRICE? DEATH. A death that we ARE worthy of. Yet we have One that was willing to DIE for us. Suffer an atrocious death so that we would NOT have to. And the ONLY way that this IS possible is through LOVE and forgiveness. Our forgiveness is MANDATORY to Salvation.

Some here indicate that forgiveness is ONLY ONCE. That upon Christ DYING that ALL men are forgiven their sins BEFORE they were even committed. While symbolically this IS true, in reality we DO NEED forgiveness for our sins CONSTANTLY if we continue in sin. And there is the FACT that the 'gift' IS CONDITIONAL, (unless, of course, on simply accepts a UNIVERSAL aproach to Salvation).

But what some indicate is that Christianity is NO different than living for the world. The ONLY difference between the Christian and them that DO NOT believe is that ONCE one believes, they NO LONGER have an OBLIGATION. Sounds good, but that would void MOST of what we have been offered concerning our walk.

I don't know WHAT IS possible with God. He knows the hearts of those that LOVE HIM, (and those that DON'T). So NECESSARY? Who knows. But I still state that with CONVICTION there WILL be NEED for repentance. And the most notable act of repentance is a recognition and DESIRE to confess and BE forgiven.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

While Christ DID die for ALL sin, that IS conditional.
Some here indicate that forgiveness is ONLY ONCE. And there is the FACT that the 'gift' IS CONDITIONAL,

Mec - Did Calvary pass you by or something? :o
Was Christ's shedding of blood and death and resurrection not suffcient for your sins?
Are you still under OT law where you have to keep going back because the bulls and goats were not sufficent?

What is so hard about?
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins :roll:

Christ died once - forgiveness for saints is one time act - finished.

Arre you going to tell me that when you sin then you go back to an unforgiven state or that sin remains unforgiven untill your "powerful forgvieness request" clears it out?
Do you mean your "power forgiveness request" can re-apply the blood? :o

That's some power there!!! :o

Hey Mec - are you really a Catholic? Because you sound like it here? They have to go to priests and mass to get clean and you have to ask forgivenes - What's the difference? :o

 

[Vic C.]

... Eph is not even addressing believers, so how would
works or no works even be relevant?...

Wow! What Bible are you reading?

The VERY first verse says:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

One more thing and then I will bow out of this debate because it's like "reading poems to a horse".

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Paul calls his readers "the saints in Ephesus"6 and "the faithful in Christ Jesus."7 For our purpose, it is enough to note that Paul is speaking to Christians, that is, those who have been consecrated to God through faith in Jesus Christ. This is important because in what follows Paul would jubilantly glory over all the spiritual blessings that God has given to "us" and that "we" enjoy in Christ.8 By noting that the "we" and "us" are restricted to believers, we will prevent the misunderstanding that these spiritual blessings belong to
any non-Christian.

http://www.rmiweb.org/books/ephesians.pdf

So is it fair to say that your a fellow Calminianist?

LOL, something like that. ;-)

It is not necessary to pray and ask for forgiveness daily because if your born again, all past, present and future sins are nailed to the cross....

Javier, if I may...

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Godspeed AV... would you like some padding for your forehead? :-D