Is it time to turn away from the organized church?

[Runner]

But they are pretty much one and the same thing these days. That's my point. This isn't just about fixing up the church and Christianity as we know it today. It's about abandoning it altogether. And in the process exposing it for what it really is.

I think we're in "violent agreement," as a friend of mine likes to say. My point was, without a radical change in understanding as to what it even means to be a Christian, the same folks who would be taking it to the streets would be the same folks who have made "Christianity" what it is today. There have certainly always been some people within every denomination (including denominations that are widely condemned as not being genuinely Christian) who actually live what Jesus was talking about. (Indeed, I have always been struck by the fact that the 25 or so people in my life who struck me as genuinely living what Jesus was talking about weren't necessarily Christians at all.) You would have to assemble a core of them and hope they had the "leavening" effect on the rest of "Christianity" (as well as the rest of the world) that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21. But probably they wouldn't - "Christianity" would applaud their efforts and go its merry way, completely unfazed.

I just happened to listen on the radio to George Barna, the pollster who is the co-author with David Barton of U-Turn: Restoring America to the Strength of its Roots. In his extensive polling, he has identified seven primary influences on peoples' thinking. Five of the seven, predictably, are media; the other two are "public policy" and "the law." Secondary influences are things like school, family and friends (and media not included in the first category). In the bottom-third category is - you guessed it - church. Although Barna is a strong conservative Christian, he said the reality is that churches' actual influence is almost zero. (He also made the point, as have others, that the "measurements" churches use to measure their "success" are almost completely illusory.)

For a long time, I thought a model church was "WORKship" in my home town of Tucson. They meet for a 7-minute worship service and then break into teams and disperse into the community to actually do things to help people. Unfortunately, I just visited their revamped website for the first time in a long time and learned that they don't care whether the participants are Christian, Buddhist, Atheist or anything in between and that they are knee-deep in the LGBT movement. So my enthusiasm is considerably diminished. But when I studied for the ministry, that was always my idea for a church: We're going to get together for two minutes of prayer, one hymn of worship and a three-minute message, and then we're going to disperse into the community and actually demonstrate our faith for five hours. Even back then, 40+ years ago, I suspected that if I took over a church with this philosophy, the membership would drop by 75% after three weeks.

Of course, almost every church can describe its many good deeds - the converts it's won, the missionaries it supports, the soup kitchen it runs, its prison ministry, etc. But my point was, every other religion and non-religion can point to much the same sort of thing. Where is the evidence of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that supposedly makes Christianity unique? Why has God allowed things to stray so massively off-track? The answer has to be more than, "Sure, Christianity looks just like Buddhism, Hinduism or Microsoft, but only we have Jesus and salvation!" That is just not convincing. I do think these are problematical questions because one plausible answer is the atheist one: "Because your religion isn't real." I don't think the atheist answer is the correct one, but I do find the questions problematical. If the Holy Spirit is at work within "Christianity" at all, why does "Christianity" mirror the secular world to such an extent? Before we took to the streets to demonstrate the power of the Spirit, shouldn't we attempt to arrive at some understanding of why that power hasn't had more effect within "Christianity"? Certainly most new Christians don't start off with the idea, "I want a church that is essentially indistinguishable from McDonald's, is just a place to plant my fanny and be entertained for an hour or two a week, and has essentially zero influence on my life or thinking."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is the evidence of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that supposedly makes Christianity unique?

Which is the point of my thread. The churches of the world do not teach about the Holy Spirit. And even the Full Gospel churches seem to have stopped talking about the Holy Spirit and talk about money instead.

Why has God allowed things to stray so massively off-track?

Well, it's certainly not out of his control. And this is not the first time that the church has gotten so far off track. Baal worship overwhelmed the congregation in the days of Elijah. And the church was utterly devoid of the Spirit in the time of the Protestant Reformation. So we should not be terribly surprised that it happens. God is still in control and there is always the holy remnant that does not follow the popular movements and beliefs of the day. In fact, I'd probably say that's why God allows it. It separates and distinguishes the true from the false for those who really are true.

The answer has to be more than, "Sure, Christianity looks just like Buddhism, Hinduism or Microsoft, but only we have Jesus and salvation!" That is just not convincing.

I agree. I don't think that's a valuable witnessing tool at all. We have to have power to show we are not just another 'religion'. That's what I'm pointing out in this thread. The church of the world has no power. They only have the form. We need to separate ourselves from it.

Before we took to the streets to demonstrate the power of the Spirit, shouldn't we attempt to arrive at some understanding of why that power hasn't had more effect within "Christianity"?

For sure. The simple answer is we do not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. And it doesn't help that whole denominations are teaching that those powers passed away in favor of the written canon of scripture, alone.

ertainly most new Christians don't start off with the idea, "I want a church that is essentially indistinguishable from McDonald's, is just a place to plant my fanny and be entertained for an hour or two a week, and has essentially zero influence on my life or thinking."

But that is where they will end up if you do not teach them about the Holy Spirit so that they will purposely seek the Holy Spirit.

when I studied for the ministry, that was always my idea for a church: We're going to get together for two minutes of prayer, one hymn of worship and a three-minute message, and then we're going to disperse into the community and actually demonstrate our faith for five hours.

No, it takes much more than just two minutes of prayer, a song, and a three minute message to learn about and get acquainted with the Holy Spirit and His mission in your life. My burden for 'church' means at a very minimum 1-1/2 hours of Biblical discussion, prayer, and Spirit-filled praise and worship. I'm convinced that anything less than that will not be enough time to do all the things that are required to build a believer up into the stature of Christ.

Even back then, 40+ years ago, I suspected that if I took over a church with this philosophy, the membership would drop by 75% after three weeks.

Well, that much I agree with. Model a church to actually do what church is supposed to do for the body of believers and you will most certainly drive off those who are not really interested in that, but rather only interested in satisfying a requirement to go to church, and do it in the most non-offensive, un-intrusive, fun way possible. That seems to be exactly how people are choosing their church to attend these days and the church is accommodating them.

The key to all of this talk about power and distinguishing ourselves from the world and the church of the world is 'love'. I started out in the charismatic Full Gospel movement when I was born again 30 years ago. I thank God for it. Because of being in the movement I found that the key to having power and being everything God wants you to be is to have the love of Jesus in you. This is not the love that the world has, but the love that God has. It's quite different than the love that the world has.

 

[smaller]

Where is the evidence of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that supposedly makes Christianity unique? Why has God allowed things to stray so massively off-track? The answer has to be more than, "Sure, Christianity looks just like Buddhism, Hinduism or Microsoft, but only we have Jesus and salvation!" That is just not convincing. I do think these are problematical questions because one plausible answer is the atheist one: "Because your religion isn't real." I don't think the atheist answer is the correct one, but I do find the questions problematical. If the Holy Spirit is at work within "Christianity" at all, why does "Christianity" mirror the secular world to such an extent? Before we took to the streets to demonstrate the power of the Spirit, shouldn't we attempt to arrive at some understanding of why that power hasn't had more effect within "Christianity"?

OR maybe the expressions of God in Christ to the church(es) are staring us right in the divided faces?

 

[JLB]

If a person want's to see the power of God manifested through their lives to:

Save
Heal
Deliver

From the devastating works and bondage of Satan, then they can, if they are willing to pay the price.

There is no shortcut.

The crucified life: whereby you spend hours and hours alone with the Lord in His presence, worshiping, praying, fasting and seeking Him.

This is the lifestyle of those who are led by the Spirit.
This is the lifestyle of those who hear His Voice.
This is the lifestyle of those will demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit.

The man is this clip is not very well known, and is regarded as "strange" by some, and a "nutcase" by those who reject the Holy Spirit.

He said he knew God had called him to the full time ministry, but didn't know what to do, so he just reported to his church and prayed for 8 hours a day, until God gave him his first assignment... after about three months, God did just that.

His testimony about being called into the ministry is on some of his teaching MP3's which are free from his website.

http://www.daveroberson.org/index.aspx

This clip is one of a young man healed of MS.

Dave was weeping under the power of the Spirit as he tried his best to speak to the young man what the Spirit of God was saying.

Please. If you don't think this is real or of God, please don't call the Spirit by which he was operating; the devil.

I don't like posting things like this, because of what many will say against the Spirit.

I know their are many phony healing's and such out there.

[I'm sure there are plenty of things on the internet against this man.]

JLB

 

[reba]

I dont remember the mid fifties clear on every detail.. i do remember the 2 little airplanes 1 pink 1 blue... A wire reaching across the church... the idea was a race the girls against the boys the planes moved by how many people each group got to come to church... I can remember my Dad not liking it.. doing what 'head quarters' suggest but not liking it.. .. It took a number of years for feeling the obligation to HQ to leave ... Praise the Lord we finally realized Springfeild MO was not really the new Jerusalem..