Is it time to turn away from the organized church?

[JohnDB]

That Printer of Udell's is a book written at the turn of the century...(the one before last) that illustrates how long these issues have been going on in the church. When you read it it seems as if Harold Bell Wright was in attendance at your church today.

These issues aren't anything new. Its a quick and easy read. (and free)


And truly these things have been going on. Deitrick Bonhoeffer said similar...so did Charles Spurgeon, so did C.S Lewis.

and in one to two generations...what is to keep your denomination or new church from becoming that which you are already speaking against?
Thats the problem...every generation wants to leave their own mark on this world for the next generation. What's wrong with improving what has already been created and putting more into it? Some fresh blood...a new outlook...a new spirit of "Can Do".?

Jesus said that we cannot get rid of the poor...neither by giving ourselves into poverty or by training them to not make poor decisions. Giving helps the giver much more than the recipient. And that is part of the point of giving.

So...I am going to stay with the established institutions...
I have seen too many of the "new" ones end up falling away or becoming something that they really have no business being. (a recent men's organization coming to mind)
Winds of doctrine are ever changing...coming and going and shifting. (Prayer of Jabez, Gold Dusters, Name it--claim it, Jesus Christ Superstar, I know the Plans, and many many more)

But by all means...
Do it for the children...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These issues aren't anything new.

Well, actually, the true church leaving the established church is new. That's what's different about what I'm saying that hasn't been talked about since the one time that it did happen--the Protestant Reformation. I tell people it's time for another Reformation. But a different Reformation than the one the church has already tried. That one led us to the hyper-grace doctrines that, IMO, are the death knell for the church as a whole in this age.

What's wrong with improving what has already been created and putting more into it?

That hasn't worked. And given the place where we're at, prophetically, the present church is actually the last church in terms of the church we've had to date.

Jesus said that we cannot get rid of the poor...neither by giving ourselves into poverty or by training them to not make poor decisions. Giving helps the giver much more than the recipient. And that is part of the point of giving.

Tell it to your church that is perpetuating it's inefficient and ineffective clothing give-aways and food pantries.

So...I am going to stay with the established institutions...
I have seen too many of the "new" ones end up falling away or becoming something that they really have no business being.

I suppose if what I was proposing was somehow an institution then, yes, by all means stay in the worthless one you have now.

But by all means...
Do it for the children...

Yes, stay right where you are and 'do it for the children', because that's really all who your inefficient and ineffective organized 'religion' with it's various labels and doctrines ends up benefiting. And who can argue with that benefit in and of itself. But why not shake off the establishment (not try to conform it) in a modern reformation and do what the church was actually supposed to do?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm watching the Furious Love video now... It's nothing that shocking or unusual to me as I've personally been involved in some similar things. I do know and have not only seen, but even been personally involved in some similar incidents as some of what's in this video regarding things like the actual real healing, the demon possessions, and such.

Unlike a lot of videos I've seen along these lines, this one rings of truth. I noticed right away that there is no screaming by street preachers acting like they themselves could be demon possessed. There is no hate filled condemnation screamed at the poor people who are present in the streets. It doesn't show any calculated massive shows being put on that are professionally choreographed to produce a false euphoria and make people overly pliable to the power of suggestion by well trained and practiced orators. No, I haven't seen any of that so far.

What I see is what I believe to be the true power of God, manifesting itself as Jesus demonstrated it when He walked the earth in His physical body; a peace that passes all understanding combined with a power that is even strong enough that an ordinary Christian, speaking in an ordinary way (not screaming and acting like he has mental problems!) can cause a practicing witch to remove his head cover because he saw the very real presence of the Spirit of God and was just that humbled and moved by it.

I've experienced some of this first hand. I don't know how many other Christians have. I would hope many have, but I do know that in the last church where I was a member, I'm not so sure any of them ever had. That needs to change. But when I have challenged some of them to join me in witnessing in this way to the prostitutes and drug addicts of the upper east side of Vancouver where I used to go a lot, not a single one would take me up on it. One girl, just one teenage girl said she would go, but when it came right down to going, she also failed to do it.

Turns out the documentary "Finger of God" may well be the best of them all. Perhaps it best to ignore the gold dust and gem stone stuff in the beginning(?) That seems rather meaningless to me and smacks of 'hoax' to me. But the rest of the film is quite good and very authentic.

Seizing an audience for the gospel message through a demonstration of power, first, sure beats bickering and arguing with 'religious' people, saved and unsaved, who are sure their 'interpretation' (God help us) of the scriptures is correct and you are wrong.

 

[JohnDB]

Tell it to your church that is perpetuating it's inefficient and ineffective clothing give-aways and food pantries.


I suppose if what I was proposing was somehow an institution then, yes, by all means stay in the worthless one you have now.


Yes, stay right where you are and 'do it for the children', because that's really all who your inefficient and ineffective organized 'religion' with it's various labels and doctrines ends up benefiting. And who can argue with that benefit in and of itself. But why not shake off the establishment (not try to conform it) in a modern reformation and do what the church was actually supposed to do?

OK. My church actually takes an active role in promoting 40+ different missionaries and programs from camps for poor kids to Chinese English language programs...and preaching the gospel in every aspect.

So you blindly label this as worthless?

Yeah...sure... whatever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems to me that the core problem is less with “the organized churches” than with “the Christianity.”

But they are pretty much one and the same thing these days. That's my point.
This isn't just about fixing up the church and Christianity as we know it today. It's about abandoning it altogether. And in the process exposing it for what it really is.

t would send a rather strange message to say, “We’re taking our religion to the streets because it hasn’t worked very well in the churches.”

'Taking it to the streets' is a colloquial phrase for taking the gospel and the truths of God to the non-religious. If that means literally taking it to the people walking down the street, then so be it.

is day and Tolstoy was complaining about in the Russia of his – a cheap, superficial “Christianity” that really isn’t Christianity at all, but rather just a branch of the secular society that conforms and blends in as nicely as any other branch.

I call it the 'church of the world'. When I got saved and introduced to the Holy Spirit, I realized the visible church is really not the church at all. It has (for some unknown reason) true people of God in it, but the church organization itself is not really the church that belongs to Christ. Genuine believers who hang around in those places help it so it gets misunderstood that somehow the church of the world belongs to Christ.

Since the secular society has pretty much reached the Last Days stage that 2 Timothy 3:1-5 describes, I see no reason to be optimistic “Christianity” will likewise not continue “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”

I agree. That's why it's time for genuine Christians to get out of Dodge. Not try to change it as before.

I’ve often said that if I were advising atheists, I think the single strongest argument against Christianity would be: “You say that only you have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. Why is there not more evidence of this – in your individual lives, in your churches and denominations, in your religion as a whole?”

Is there truly anything that distinguishes “Christians” from Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists and New Agers except in their own self-congratulatory minds? Where is the evidence of a Holy Spirit within Christendom that is any different from the “transforming power” of Buddhism, Hinduism, Humanism or any other religious or moral system?

The fact that these are at least legitimate questions without easy answers ought to be very troubling.

I don't consider those to be questions without easy answers. The simple Biblical answer is to have a demonstration of the power that we talk about in words but do not have ourselves.

The Christianity that Jesus was talking about would be observably different from the society around it. It would be hated by many because it stood in opposition to the society around it, not for the superficial reasons it is hated today. It would be appealing to those with ears to hear precisely because it was different. It would inevitably be smaller, at least for a long time, than “Christianity.”

I tell people this all the time. While the church is busy trying to build numbers, I tell them a real move of God means smaller numbers....but smaller numbers that don't have to be limited in how many groups of small numbers you seek to establish. See the difference in that model of 'church growth' and the one presently embraced and pursued by the church today?

So I don’t see abandoning the organized churches, or taking Christianity to the streets, or reforming Christianity in any other way as being productive until you have confronted the core question, “What is wrong with ‘Christianity’ and why is any random group of 500 ‘Christians’ pretty much indistinguishable from any random group of 500 Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists or New Agers in terms of the fruits described in Galatians 5:22-23, good deeds, successful marriages, miracles, scandals or any other measure that really matters?” An atheist would say, "Because Christianity isn't real." I don’t have all the answers, but as a Christian my guess would be, “Because ‘Christianity’ hasn’t tapped into the power of the Holy Spirit at all” (which brings to mind Chesterton's famous quip that "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried").

You're answering your own question and don't seem to realize it. It's the matter of having power. This is isn't going to happen in the established church, no more than it happened within the 'religious' community of Jesus and the Apostle's day, but rather outside and in spite of it.

You do not attend a Baptist church in Minsk for any reason other than a sincere belief in the Gospel; attendance is going to put you at odds with your government and the society around you and is not going to benefit your secular life in any way. I truly felt as though I was in a Christian church for the first time in my wife. My wife's pastor, who had been to America, urged her not to come here because the "Christianity" she would encounter would not be the Christianity she had known.

Watch "Finger of God" on Netflix. It confirms exactly what you're saying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK. My church actually takes an active role in promoting 40+ different missionaries and programs from camps for poor kids to Chinese English language programs...and preaching the gospel in every aspect.

So you blindly label this as worthless?

Yeah...sure... whatever.

You were talking down to me in your last post and I resent it.
You took what I said about the church's food pantries and clothing give-a-ways and how they really only end up helping the helpless children of the people who come to them in my discussion with wondering and turned it against me as if I was the one promoting them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JohnDB ,
Watch the documentary "Finger of God" on Netflix (skip through the gold dust and gems stuff in the beginning, lol) and tell me if what you and your church does on the mission field now will give you success, let alone allow you to escape with your life, if you do what they did in the movie and go into a Muslim country and preach the gospel where the name of Jesus has never been heard. Be honest, would you even try?

By the way, I think 'The Jesus Film' they showed is perhaps the greatest evangelical tool in our modern times.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Next time any one of us in this forum gets in a discussion about Jesus and the gospel with an unbeliever in the workplace, at the grocery store, on the street corner, or wherever, offer to pray for them whatever they'll let you pray for. Leave the rest to God. I think that's easy and reasonable and something any one of us can do. By doing this we give God the chance to demonstrate the power he wants to display with the proclamation of the gospel.

I know it's scary because bad teaching in the Full Gospel churches has it so that you have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you're praying for will and must happen for it to happen. But what God really wants is people who care enough about people to find out if God will do in that moment what we already know in theory he most certainly can do. That's all. Try it.

 

[JohnDB]

You were talking down to me in your last post and I resent it.
You took what I said about the church's food pantries and clothing give-a-ways and how they really only end up helping the helpless children of the people who come to them in my discussion with wondering and turned it against me as if I was the one promoting them.

Well you are stating that by joining with these institutions that are trained and experienced with the assistance in the areas of their ministries we are promoting evil..Maybe even wasting God's resources.

When i know that nothing like that is true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well you are stating that by joining with these institutions that are trained and experienced with the assistance in the areas of their ministries we are promoting evil..Maybe even wasting God's resources.

When i know that nothing like that is true.

I'm saying that by being connected to these institutions you are operating very inefficiently and ineffectively like a motor with a high whatever it is that shows it's efficiency, lol (you know--power factor?).

If you insist on staying in those powerless expressions of what may or may not be a genuine expression of one's love for people, can you offer to pray and lay hands on people who will let you do that? I'm not talking about Spirit-less, route, prayers for general things. I'm talking about specific prayers for the person who comes in on crutches, or with a dead eye, or a profound spirit of depression, etc. Would you dare do that? Do you see how that gives your message clout and validity in the mind and heart of the person who may only be there to get the freebies? I'm betting you'd rather have an effective ministry, not just one that gives you some kind of misguided satisfaction that at least you did something (as it seems most people in the church think).

 

[JohnDB]

I'm saying that by being connected to these institutions you are operating very inefficiently and ineffectively like a motor with a high whatever it is that shows it's efficiency, lol (you know--power factor?).

If you insist on staying in those powerless expressions of what may or may not be a genuine expression of one's love for people, can you offer to pray and lay hands on people who will let you do that? I'm not talking about Spirit-less, route, prayers for general things. I'm talking about specific prayers for the person who comes in on crutches, or with a dead eye, or a profound spirit of depression, etc. Would you dare do that? Do you see how that gives your message clout and validity in the mind and heart of the person who may only be there to get the freebies? I'm betting you'd rather have an effective ministry, not just one that gives you some kind of misguided satisfaction that at least you did something (as it seems most people in the church think).

Once again you are showing ignorance of the programs and ministries we are involved with.

The factors affecting our efficacy are mostly Government. They are the ones that have turned humanitarian assistance into entitlements...
And America has the richest poor in the world.

But that is only one ministry.
We have "teaching men to fish" ministries and helping hand ministries and prayers and preaching in ALL of the ministries.

Including taking care of retired missionaries and widows of missionaries.
Why you think that we are inefficient and ineffective is beyond me. Actually we tend to do more with so little we are almost to the point of doing anything with nothing.

But according to you we do nothing while wasting vast sums of resources.
If only....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why you think that we are inefficient and ineffective is beyond me.

Because you yourself said the demonstration of power I'm promoting was 'not your wheelhouse'. That's why.

Until you and your organized church put some punch behind your many words and works you'll be operating at a very inefficient, wasteful, and ineffective level. Your conscience will be salved as far as any sense of responsibility or guilt is concerned regarding serving the Lord, buy you'll spend thousands of dollars to send your youth to annual youth rally's, and spend thousands of dollars on weiny roasts and church festivals open to the public in the hope of eventually leading them to attend your church and to a confession of faith just to see the youth of the church, almost without exception living in the world five years later after they leave home, and only one maybe two people and their kids who stuck around after indulging themselves on all the free goodies and air mattress rides at your church festivals.

Actually we tend to do more with so little we are almost to the point of doing anything with nothing.

But according to you we do nothing while wasting vast sums of resources.
If only....

Yes, if only you'd tell us how you measure the success of your programs.
If you're like most mainstream Christians and their ministries, success to you is simply having done something, whether it actually aided in the building of the kingdom or not. I know that thinking comes from the beliefs and doctrines that are held by the mainstream church these days, but let's not go down that road.

But anyway, you are the one that has shown himself to be the naysayer in regard to this subject. You, whether you know it or not, are representing the resistance this subject gets from the established 'religious' system present at any one time in history to the power of God. I guess it would help if you can show how actually helping people through a real demonstration of God's power and love for them is not a far better and greater way to invest spiritual and material resources into building the kingdom of God than just tossing freebies at them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I really recommend people watch "Finger of God" on Netflix. I gleaned a lot of good ideas from the film. The point is where does one go and what do they do to be truly powerful and effective in reaching the world with the truth and power of God's love, which in turn leads them to a relationship with God or strengthens the one they have? The mainstream religious system and what they do and what they believe isn't cutting it. Like always in history, you're going to have to get out of that box, not reform it, to have actual success in your work for the Lord as opposed to just knowing you did something for the Lord thinking that's all God is looking for and which will put your conscience at ease in regard to that matter.

 

[Obadiah]

Turns out the documentary "Finger of God" may well be the best of them all. Perhaps it best to ignore the gold dust and gem stone stuff in the beginning(?) That seems rather meaningless to me and smacks of 'hoax' to me. But the rest of the film is quite good and very authentic.

Seizing an audience for the gospel message through a demonstration of power, first, sure beats bickering and arguing with 'religious' people, saved and unsaved, who are sure their 'interpretation' (God help us) of the scriptures is correct and you are wrong.

I'll put that one on at work tonight.

 

[reba]

Jethro Bodine Wanting to step out on the Living Water, as Peter did ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Mark 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. 15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In the churches we see people who have ears to hear the gospel being preached and act on it by applying the scriptures to their life, then you have those who do not have ears to hear, but if you ask them what the sermon was about they will look right at you and say, "I don't remember, but it sure made me feel good. Truth needs to be taught not only out in the streets, but also in the Church.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Signs, wonders, and miracles.
"12The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles." (2 Corinthians 12:12 NASB)

(I can hear the gasps all ready, lol )

"when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5 NASB)

Jethro,
No gasps. I'll bet many here have seen some type of miracle, or even other signs.
Maybe you mean that people should see the power of God in us. They should see how much WE believe and this might draw them to God. I don't know about this. They say that if you believe no miracle is necessary and if you don't believe no miracle is enough.

You have lofty goals and are to be admired. I often wonder what's missing in churches too.
Most are as dead as could be. It's like we're going through the motions but there's something missing.
I think what's missing is that the gospel isn't preached. My brother in NYC goes to a church that teaches psychology, basically. I went a couple of times and then stopped.

It's interesting that you posted 1 Corinthians. Paul is saying that he spoke in plain language precisely because he wanted to show who Jesus is and then what he did - Jesus crucified. Today most people already know this - so we feel we have to teach more, or something different?

The world has heard enough talk. The church itself has so maligned the word of God with it's abundance of differing thoughts about it so as to cast severe doubt about it in the minds of unbelievers. To reach people like this you have to show them that

"the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5 NASB). Jesus and his early disciples testified to the world through signs and wonders, so should we.

Oh, I know, the 'religious' church is vehemently opposed to this. Just as the 'religious' people of Jesus' day were opposed to it, even calling it of the devil.

How to show God's power? The world is so noisy we can't even hear God anymore.
Yes. Some churches are afraid of miracles, and some claim a miracle even if nothing happened!
I think the power might be in our lives. A pastor used to say that the world should be able to see the difference between a Christian and everyone else. Do they? Runner brought this up. He might not even be Christian and he notices this problem. Maybe we need more holiness churches? I went to one for 10 years. But nowadays we hate legalism and we want to be "free." We're supposed to be following Jesus, instead we're worried about doing works.
We're not supposed to do works. Kind of goes against the whole idea of Christianity - and yet it's true! A difficult concept to explain...

Yep. I know all about those who do that. In the Netflix documentary "Holy Ghost", at about 9 min. 30 secs in, they talk to a dear couple who have been preaching the gospel on the street for 30 years who don't believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. They said they've lead maybe five people to the Lord in that 30 years. (and it's 'Holy Ghost', not 'Holy Spirit', Obadiah).

Like I say, the world has had enough talk. Time for a demonstration of power, not just words.

I understand perfectly. Time for some personal interaction with power to accompany the tracts and the open ended invitations to talk about them.

I agree completely. Time for a demonstration of power.....God's love for them manifest in something tangible and real for them that they can't deny.

A demonstration of power. I repeat, how? If they don't see in our lives, how else?

Not really. Yes, most churches start with a handful of people. But they are usually already friends and family and acquainted with each other, and who certainly don't need signs and wonders to believe because they believe and are saved already. I'm not knocking that at all. I'm just saying there is another way. A way that does not rely on that.

Do we really need another church? I think there are enough. Maybe we need to improve on those?
Better bible colleges, devoted men who love the church and the Church.

Well, it helps poor people to be able to use their money for the important things in life....drugs, cable TV, tattoos, cigarettes, and beer. Am I right? (No, not looking for a discussion about tatts, lol. Just pointing out the 'necessities' of life for 'poor' people in America ). So you can gather I'm not big on food pantries and other truly sincere and loving efforts to share the love of God with people in the hope they'll come to him in salvation, but which prove to really be very, very ineffective to that end.

I agree, I believe I stated this. The people who get these clothes really are poor. But you're right, we've lost the concept of what it really means to be poor. We use it to mean that we don't have as much as we'd like - but that's not what poor is. I think churches should help out in their neighborhoods; however, the primary goal of any church is to bring souls into the Kingdom - you'd think they were just a charitable organization. Jesus said to baptize and to preach, teaching all He said and to make disciples. We should be teaching discipleship more IMO.

Like I say, it gives them the opportunity to use their money on the truly important and necessary things of life .
I'm being funny, but I think the real use for these kinds of things--food pantries, clothing distributions--is they help kids who are at the mercy of their unbelieving parents to care for them but who don't because they're pill heads, or drunks, or cable addicts. And who can argue with the value of helping those kids whose parents don't?

How, you ask? A group of saved friends, family, and acquaintances grow big enough and have enough money to establish themselves in a building. I'm not knocking it. Not for a second. I'm just saying there's this Biblical element of adding people to the kingdom and to a church in a more non-traditional, but powerful and effective way, that potentially could be more effective and far reaching and long term.


I'm talking about the mission and goal that causes a church to be formed. If it's just to be another church in the xyz denomination, and/or to have traditional pastor/congregation (non)relationships and meetings, you've got an uphill battle on your hands.


I know that when threads get over two pages it's hard to glean everything that's been said, but I addressed this briefly here:

And that's just one way. Prophetic words, anointed music (where you can actually hear the words) that solicits the presence of God....anything that demonstrates the love of God through power. God has distributed gifts to his people to do that.

Do you think an independent church is better than a denominational church?
And do you realize the amount of charisma a pastor of your description would have to have?
A mission, a goal, non-traditional pastors, relationships. How many out there have these qualities?

There was a huge movement of the spirit in the 50's with Billy Graham. No one around like him today.
Plus, we shouldn't really be depending on any one person to deliver the word of God.
This is complicated.

Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

Because you yourself said the demonstration of power I'm promoting was 'not your wheelhouse'. That's why.

Until you and your organized church put some punch behind your many words and works you'll be operating at a very inefficient, wasteful, and ineffective level. Your conscience will be salved as far as any sense of responsibility or guilt is concerned regarding serving the Lord, buy you'll spend thousands of dollars to send your youth to annual youth rally's, and spend thousands of dollars on weiny roasts and church festivals open to the public in the hope of eventually leading them to attend your church and to a confession of faith just to see the youth of the church, almost without exception living in the world five years later after they leave home, and only one maybe two people and their kids who stuck around after indulging themselves on all the free goodies and air mattress rides at your church festivals.


Yes, if only you'd tell us how you measure the success of your programs.
If you're like most mainstream Christians and their ministries, success to you is simply having done something, whether it actually aided in the building of the kingdom or not. I know that thinking comes from the beliefs and doctrines that are held by the mainstream church these days, but let's not go down that road.

But anyway, you are the one that has shown himself to be the naysayer in regard to this subject. You, whether you know it or not, are representing the resistance this subject gets from the established 'religious' system present at any one time in history to the power of God. I guess it would help if you can show how actually helping people through a real demonstration of God's power and love for them is not a far better and greater way to invest spiritual and material resources into building the kingdom of God than just tossing freebies at them.

We use metrics like we seen fit to use...

Souls saved, baptisms performed, those willing to say that what they learned/experienced made a difference in their future behavior and then the follow-up metrics as well of organization growth, community impact (those copying our successes) and more baptisms and professions of faith.

We don't demand that people join our church. Nor any particular church. We suggest that they do so especially one closest to their neighborhoods...and we use similar metrics for our international ministries... including follow-up metrics.

We all know of huge organizations and "name brand" preachers showing up for a photo op where crowds gather for a free T-shirt and it was said to be an international revival...that ain't us.

We have two social functions each year out of general funds at the church. One is for the 4th with a hot dog. The other is in the fall with food trucks. (Not much is spent on ourselves)

The other in house ministries are self funded....meaning pot lucks, and fee based socials.

So once again you have shown that you know nothing about what and how we do things.

My church is highly focused on missions. It's the main reason I am there. I have my ministries that I perform. Street preaching is the least effective and least successful form of ministry out there. It literally wastes thousands of labor hours for a handful of souls.

Interpersonal witnessing although has a high rate of return and effectiveness.

Ministries that we involve ourselves with must be successful or we don't get involved...and using the metrics we always use.
I know of a name brand preacher who uses street preaching but what you don't see is the staging involved when video taped. It's an illusion that he tries to create. Those of us actually in the trenches know better. 5hours of affinity witnessing vx 500 hours of street preaching...which performs better?
The 5 hours...hands down every time.

 

[Free]

The only conclusion I can come to if we are to turn away from the organized church is that we must turn to the disorganized church, and it seems to me that being organized is preferable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine Wanting to step out on the Living Water, as Peter did ?

Yep. It's scary but exciting all at the same time.