Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

[LeviR]

I glanced at your study as I have in the past. First, John 1:1c cannot ever be translated as “a god” because Yahweh repeatedly states and it is repeatedly stated throughout Scripture, that there is only one God and there is no such thing as a god.

Second, just a cursory check and the second point in your study—“The next point is that when John (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke also) clearly meant “God” when writing theos (the form of the Greek word which ends in ς), he always used the definite article (‘the’ in English - ho in Greek): ho theos”—is wrong. In John 8:54, John uses theos without the article, and if there is one instance, there could be more. I believe I have pointed this out to you before and yet you still haven’t changed it.

Third, John rights that in Thomas’s exclamation to Jesus, he uses ho theos. So, you should at least be consistent and acknowledge that Thomas called Jesus his God.

Not only did Thomas call Jesus God but Lord too. This happened after Jesus was raised from the dead to die no more.

This is no different than the Angel of the Lord being call both LORD and God. God name was in him. He was sent to represent God to man. He was not the only true God and neither is Jesus who has now been exalted above all the angels and now carries the name of God. God’s name is in him.

 

[JLB]

Peter teaches that Jesus is a man approved by God, and neither he believed that Jesus is God

Ok. Thanks for sharing this.

I will amend this statement Peter made now that we have you to lead us and guide us into all truth. Amen.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our man God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


Also John -

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God man. John 1:1


Also Paul -

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God man was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Thanks for clearing up this controversy in scripture.






JLB

 

[LeviR]

Ok. Thanks for sharing this.

I will amend this statement Peter made now that we have you to lead us and guide us into all truth. Amen.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our man God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


Also John -

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God man. John 1:1


Also Paul -

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God man was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Thanks for clearing up this controversy in scripture.






JLB

Why didn’t you explain how Jesus is not a man approved of God?
All you’ve done is attempt to prove the scripture he posted was false and the scripture you posted true.

All those scriptures are true.

Perhaps you can explain his misunderstanding of the scripture he posted?

Trinitarians are most often only half right according to their own doctrine when they speak of Jesus. Most often they just simply say “Jesus is God”. But according to their own doctrine Jesus is both fully God and fully man. So most often they never get it right.

If I were to correct the scripture you posted according to Trinitarianism it would read:

“….by the righteousness of our God-Man and savior Jesus Christ.”

Is that what it is supposed to say?

 

[KV-44-v1]

This is no different than the Angel of the Lord being call both LORD and God.

where?

That angel did not die on a cross. Plus, we never see "form" applied to it. Remember that verse with Jesus "human form". So why say "human form"? The fact that Jesus has a human FORM proves that the Son is fully Divine and fully man.

That angel did not prophesy about itself.

What a silly comparison that leaves way too much out. Sorry, but trying to prove Jesus-Belittlism is an upwards battle.

No wonder the Early Church rejected the Unitarian error.



Finally, In Revelation 1:8, God said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and in Rev. 22:13, Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega.".
Link: What Does The Bible Say? Is Jesus God In Human Form?

God says that He's the Alpha and the Omega. A not-God says He's the Alpha and the Omega.
So who's the Alpha and the Omega, God or the "not-God"? Unitarianism is more contradictory than Trinity Truth.

And what happens if a Born Again Believer claims to be the Alpha and the Omega?

The Trinity Truth comes from the Bible, so there only be apparent contradiction! Meanwhile, UniTeariansm makes ACTUAL contradictions.

 

[KV-44-v1]

“Jesus is God”. But according to their own doctrine Jesus is both fully God and fully man.

Lol. That's like saying "The glass is half full" is half right because you didn't say all of it. "The glass is half full AND half empty."

It's just to focuses on one aspect of Jesus. This lets us know that Jesus is more than you think He is.

 

[LeviR]

where?

That angel did not die on a cross. Plus, we never see "form" applied to it. Remember that verse with Jesus "human form". So why say "human form"? The fact that Jesus has a human FORM proves that the Son is fully Divine and fully man.

That angel did not prophesy about itself.

What a silly comparison that leaves way too much out. Sorry, but trying to prove Jesus-Belittlism is an upwards battle.

No wonder the Early Church rejected the Unitarian error.



Finally, In Revelation 1:8, God said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and in Rev. 22:13, Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega.".
Link: What Does The Bible Say? Is Jesus God In Human Form?

God says that He's the Alpha and the Omega. A not-God says He's the Alpha and the Omega.
So who's the Alpha and the Omega, God or the "not-God"? Unitarianism is more contradictory than Trinity Truth.

And what happens if a Born Again Believer claims to be the Alpha and the Omega?

The Trinity Truth comes from the Bible, so there only be apparent contradiction! Meanwhile, UniTeariansm makes ACTUAL contradictions.

Unitarians don’t belittle Jesus. They simply recognize he has a God.
It is Trinitarians who assign too much to him. And by doing so, they rob him of his glory in overcoming the world.

 

[LeviR]

Lol. That's like saying "The glass is half full" is half right because you didn't say all of it. "The glass is half full AND half empty."

It's just to focuses on one aspect of Jesus. This lets us know that Jesus is more than you think He is.

As I explained early, of which you failed to respond .

If your god = 3 persons, then to say each person is god is to contradict your definition of your god.

 

[Fish153]

Greetings Fish153,

Peter teaches that Jesus is a man approved by God, and neither he believed that Jesus is God nor did the 3000 who were converted believe that Jesus was God. The following describes what Jesus DID during his ministry:

Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor---- That isn't true at all. Read the confession of Peter in Matthew 16. Peter clearly thought that Jesus was God. Look at Nathanael's confession in John 1. Jesus tells him "before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you". Nathanael KNEW that was an impossibility unless Jesus was God. Therefore Nathanael exclaims:
"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the KING OF ISRAEL". (John 1:51)
And WHO is the KING OF ISRAEL? "Thus saith the Lord the KING OF ISRAEL, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (Isaiah 44: 6). Nathanael is clearly proclaiming Jesus to be GOD.

And Thomas in John 20:28 after seeing Jesus' wounds declares" "My Lord, and my GOD". All 3 of those Apostles stated Jesus was God. It is very clear---unless you want to keep your position that Jesus is NOT God----then I'm sure you can find ways to squirm around this and twist clear truth.

 

[JLB]

Why didn’t you explain how Jesus is not a man approved of God?
All you’ve done is attempt to prove the scripture he posted was false and the scripture you posted true.

Do you understand the concept that God became flesh; He became a Man.


And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fish153,

It is very clear---unless you want to keep your position that Jesus is NOT God----then I'm sure you can find ways to squirm around this and twist clear truth

I am not sure that I want to engage with you on the full range of this subject. Much of this has been considered elsewhere. I will sample one of your items, and then decide whether to continue depending on your response to this one item.

Look at Nathanael's confession in John 1. Jesus tells him "before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you". Nathanael KNEW that was an impossibility unless Jesus was God. Therefore Nathanael exclaims:
"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the KING OF ISRAEL". (John 1:51)
And WHO is the KING OF ISRAEL? "Thus saith the Lord the KING OF ISRAEL, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". (Isaiah 44: 6). Nathanael is clearly proclaiming Jesus to be GOD.

There is a distinction in the Bible between the Throne of God and the Throne of David. Jesus is destined to be the King on the Throne of David during the 1000 years, while the One God, Yahweh, God the Father occupies God the Father's Throne.

Luke 1:31–33 (KJV): 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 19:28 (KJV): 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 3:20–22 (KJV): 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Not only did Thomas call Jesus God but Lord too. This happened after Jesus was raised from the dead to die no more.

This is no different than the Angel of the Lord being call both LORD and God. God name was in him. He was sent to represent God to man. He was not the only true God and neither is Jesus who has now been exalted above all the angels and now carries the name of God. God’s name is in him.

No, it is very different. From beginning to end, John's gospel clearly teaches that prior to his birth, Jesus existed for all eternity past as the Son and the Word. Thomas is literally calling Jesus God, because the Son always has been truly God in nature. Jesus is God in human flesh who makes God known to us and is not a "mere" representative.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JLB and Free,

Do you understand the concept that God became flesh; He became a Man.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

I prefer the KJV rendition:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John's gospel clearly teaches that prior to his birth, Jesus existed for all eternity past as the Son and the Word.

I understand "The Word" of John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 who was with Yahweh in the creation.

I also like the partial personification in the following:

Psalm 33:6–9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[KV-44-v1]

Unitarians don’t belittle Jesus.

Yes they do, they insist He's a mere man and ONLY a mere man like all of us.

They simply recognize he has a God.

The Son has His Father.

It is Trinitarians who assign too much to him.

No, it's the Biblical explanation. It explains how He is able to save us all. Instead of needing multiple "Jesus"es.
God is omnipotent. Not-God 's are limited.

And by doing so, they rob him of his glory in overcoming the world.

Jesus being God removes no glory. In fact unitarianism removes glory because you turn Jesus into a not-God and leave your favorite part of His nature. We accept both of His natures.

 

[KV-44-v1]

As I explained early, of which you failed to respond .

If your god = 3 persons, then to say each person is god is to contradict your definition of your god.

I didn't fail to respond, you did.

where?

That angel did not die on a cross. Plus, we never see "form" applied to it. Remember that verse with Jesus "human form". So why say "human form"? The fact that Jesus has a human FORM proves that the Son is fully Divine and fully man.

That angel did not prophesy about itself.

What a silly comparison that leaves way too much out. Sorry, but trying to prove Jesus-Belittlism is an upwards battle.

No wonder the Early Church rejected the Unitarian error.



Finally, In Revelation 1:8, God said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and in Rev. 22:13, Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega.".
Link: What Does The Bible Say? Is Jesus God In Human Form?

God says that He's the Alpha and the Omega. A not-God says He's the Alpha and the Omega.
So who's the Alpha and the Omega, God or the "not-God"? Unitarianism is more contradictory than Trinity Truth.

And what happens if a Born Again Believer claims to be the Alpha and the Omega?

The Trinity Truth comes from the Bible, so there only be apparent contradiction! Meanwhile, UniTeariansm makes ACTUAL contradictions.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings KV-44-v1,

Yes they do, they insist He's a mere man and ONLY a mere man like all of us.

I cannot speak on behalf of Unitarians in general, especially as some of them hold some wrong doctrines, but as a Biblical Unitarian I object to the description "mere man". Jesus was an extraordinary man, specially prepared by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father for the work he had to voluntarily accomplish.

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:31–35 (KJV): 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Jesus is a human, now glorified to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne. Jesus is no mere man, he is The Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

The Son has His Father.

I would be interested in how you define this relationship. In what way does God the Son have God the Father as His Father? How and when was this relationship established? Did God the Father create another God, God the Son? In what way and when did Jesus become the only begotten of the Father?

In fact unitarianism removes glory because you turn Jesus into a not-God and leave your favorite part of His nature. We accept both of His natures.

In what sense did the babe in the womb have two natures. Was Jesus fully God in the womb, waiting there for 9 months? What about as a child? Was he fully God knowing all things and yet need to learn as a human? Did he have two minds that were not connected to each other?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I prefer the KJV rendition:
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ok. KJV.

• God was manifest in the flesh

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV




JLB

 

[LeviR]

No, it is very different. From beginning to end, John's gospel clearly teaches that prior to his birth, Jesus existed for all eternity past as the Son and the Word. Thomas is literally calling Jesus God, because the Son always has been truly God in nature. Jesus is God in human flesh who makes God known to us and is not a "mere" representative.

Some of us know what a representative is. A king might send an agent to represent the king. To speak for the king as if the king were present. This is nothing new, and still goes on today, even if some fail to acknowledge it.
The difference with Jesus is that he is actually taking on His Father’s name.
Just like the Angel of the Lord before him. He was sent of God to represent God’s word and will and do His works.
But not only, He was sent in His name whereby he actually carried it as his own. It was in him.

 

[JLB]

The difference with Jesus is that he is actually taking on His Father’s name.

Jesus is the LORD God of Israel; YHWH the LORD.

Jesus is not God the Father; the Ancient of days but the Son.

 

[LeviR]

Jesus is the LORD God of Israel; YHWH the LORD.

Jesus is not God the Father; the Ancient of days but the Son.

Exactly, the Father is the only true God.

 

[JLB]

Exactly, the Father is the only true God.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.


These three are one.