Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

[RandyK]

Let us delve into scripture, engage in respectful dialogue with those who hold different views, and prayerfully consider the implications of these concepts for our worship and daily lives. Whether Jesus is described as "begotten" or "eternal," the core message remains: He is the divine Son of God, who bridges the gap between humanity and God, offering us salvation and a restored relationship with the Creator. Through an active pursuit of understanding, we can deepen our faith and more effectively share the love of Christ with the world.

It depends on how one defines "created" or "begotten." God creates revealtion via His Word. But the revelation of His Son as a human being was a unique "creation." It did not mean he was only part of creation, but he was made a part of creation out of a divine revelation--one that emerged from eternity, from God Himself. He was a revelation of God's Person in the form of a human person.

 

[Fish153]

It depends on how one defines "created" or "begotten." God creates revealtion via His Word. But the revelation of His Son as a human being was a unique "creation." It did not mean he was only part of creation, but he was made a part of creation out of a divine revelation--one that emerged from eternity, from God Himself. He was a revelation of God's Person in the form of a human person.

I lead a Bible study on Thursday nights. Last night we were in Mark Chapter 2. Here is part of that chapter:

2 "And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion". (Mark 2: 2-12)

Please note these things:
1. V. 5 Jesus tells the man his sins are forgiven him.
2. V. 6 The scribes were "reasoning in their hearts" and asking themselves "who can forgive sins but God only?"
3. V. 8 Jesus "perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned"----Matthew 9 says "Jesus, knowing their thoughts".
4. V. 9-10 Jesus asks them if it is easier to forgive sins, or to heal the man? Then he says "but that ye may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins, he says to the sick of the palsy "arise, take up your bed and walk". And the man was immediately healed.

Many on this board say Jesus is NOT GOD. True---Jesus never says "I am God". But read these verses again carefully and you will see that Jesus is indeed saying to the Scribes "I am God" by doing what he DOES.

Only God can forgive sins and the Scribes knew it. They asked within themselves "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" These two things should give us pause to immediately know that Jesus is God. But then we read that Jesus "knew their thoughts". Can ANY created being read anyone else's thoughts? Not even Satan can read our minds!!

When Jesus reads their minds and then asks which is easier to do: forgive sins or do a miracle, he is actually telling them "I am God". There are many, many places in the New Testament which clearly show us that Jesus is God. This is just one of them.

By the way, I am replying to a post because I do not know how to create a NEW post in this thread. lol

 

[LeviR]

I lead a Bible study on Thursday nights. Last night we were in Mark Chapter 2. Here is part of that chapter:

2 "And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion". (Mark 2: 2-12)

Please note these things:
1. V. 5 Jesus tells the man his sins are forgiven him.
2. V. 6 The scribes were "reasoning in their hearts" and asking themselves "who can forgive sins but God only?"
3. V. 8 Jesus "perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned"----Matthew 9 says "Jesus, knowing their thoughts".
4. V. 9-10 Jesus asks them if it is easier to forgive sins, or to heal the man? Then he says "but that ye may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins, he says to the sick of the palsy "arise, take up your bed and walk". And the man was immediately healed.

Many on this board say Jesus is NOT GOD. True---Jesus never says "I am God". But read these verses again carefully and you will see that Jesus is indeed saying to the Scribes "I am God" by doing what he DOES.

Only God can forgive sins and the Scribes knew it. They asked within themselves "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" These two things should give us pause to immediately know that Jesus is God. But then we read that Jesus "knew their thoughts". Can ANY created being read anyone else's thoughts? Not even Satan can read our minds!!

When Jesus reads their minds and then asks which is easier to do: forgive sins or do a miracle, he is actually telling them "I am God". There are many, many places in the New Testament which clearly show us that Jesus is God. This is just one of them.

By the way, I am replying to a post because I do not know how to create a NEW post in this thread. lol

Jesus could heal a person or even raise one from the dead. However, this does not mean the person would never get sick and or even die again.
Jesus himself was subject to death.
Since he has been raised from the dead himself, he now has the power to raise all those whom the Father has given him. To raise them like himself, to neither get sick or die anymore.

 

[RandyK]

I lead a Bible study on Thursday nights. Last night we were in Mark Chapter 2. Here is part of that chapte

Many on this board say Jesus is NOT GOD. True---Jesus never says "I am God". But read these verses again carefully and you will see that Jesus is indeed saying to the Scribes "I am God" by doing what he DOES.

Only God can forgive sins and the Scribes knew it. They asked within themselves "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" These two things should give us pause to immediately know that Jesus is God. But then we read that Jesus "knew their thoughts". Can ANY created being read anyone else's thoughts? Not even Satan can read our minds!!

When Jesus reads their minds and then asks which is easier to do: forgive sins or do a miracle, he is actually telling them "I am God". There are many, many places in the New Testament which clearly show us that Jesus is God. This is just one of them.

By the way, I am replying to a post because I do not know how to create a NEW post in this thread. lol

Christianforums.net (main page), then click on "Post Thread" and continue... I'd like to see more of your posts! I agree with you, not so much that Jesus reading someone's thoughts indicates he's God. But in this case it would be true.

Sometimes I'm able to read someone's thoughts purely by reading the "body language." But Jesus was given deeper insight into what is in Man by his Father in heaven," proving he is God.

Jesus spoke as an emergent revelation of God's Person. And so, what he says about his deity seems a bit "restrained."

But it is nevertheless unmistakeable that he is claiming equivalency with Deity. He and the Father were and are one. He emerged as a revelation from God and reflected in his human person that he was also the Divine Person.

That would not be easy to express to people! So yes, we can understand by what he said and did that he really was expressing His Divinity. Thank you!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Fish153,

Many on this board say Jesus is NOT GOD. True---Jesus never says "I am God". But read these verses again carefully and you will see that Jesus is indeed saying to the Scribes "I am God" by doing what he DOES.

Peter teaches that Jesus is a man approved by God, and neither he believed that Jesus is God nor did the 3000 who were converted believe that Jesus was God. The following describes what Jesus DID during his ministry:

Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings Fish153,

Peter teaches that Jesus is a man approved by God, and neither he believed that Jesus is God nor did the 3000 who were converted believe that Jesus was God. The following describes what Jesus DID during his ministry:

Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Kind regards
Trevor

It wasn’t possible for Jesus to remain dead and in the grave because otherwise the scripture would be broken.

Psa 16:10 - For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

 

[Free]

Greetings Fish153,

Peter teaches that Jesus is a man approved by God, and neither he believed that Jesus is God nor did the 3000 who were converted believe that Jesus was God. The following describes what Jesus DID during his ministry:

Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is fallaciously begging the question. In addition to what Jesus did, he said a lot of things, things which led John and Paul to write certain things, and to Thomas's clear declaration of the deity of Jesus (John 20:28). By extension, Peter almost certainly believed Jesus was truly God in human flesh, along with the rest of the disciples and Apostles:

2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

Note the grammar is the exact same in each and that in each instance it is speaking of one person.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

the God and Father
ho theos kai patēr

2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

[the] Lord and Savior
tou kuriou kai sōtēros

Clearly these are also speaking of one person.

Now this:

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[the] God and Savior Jesus Christ
tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

While the precise meaning is debated, note that the grammar is exactly the same as the previous verses. This strongly suggests it is speaking of one person, not two. It is not reasonable to understand the previous verses as speaking of one person, but this verse as speaking of two. There are no grammatical grounds for doing so.

As a side note, Paul does the same here:

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

great [the] God and Savior Jesus Christ
tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

(All ESV.)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

That is fallaciously begging the question.

I endorse again that reference and what I stated concerning this.

By extension, Peter almost certainly believed Jesus was truly God in human flesh, along with the rest of the disciples and Apostles

Your references from Peter are to some extent ambiguous. I doubt that you can claim the same for the following, where the One God, God the Father is clearly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God:

1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I suppose you will quote the Greek here also, but I doubt that the Greek will help you avoid what is very clear in the English translation.

things which led .... Paul to write certain things

Do the following statements by Paul support your cause?

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

I am confident that your Greek will not rescue you here either.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

TrevorL

Hello Trevor,

I notice from your post #168 that the letters written to the churches refer to God as the Father and Jesus as the Lord.
I also notice that they address God as the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If one were to actually read the letters of the disciples, the conclusion would be that God is the Father and Jesus is the Lord and God is the God and Father of Jesus the Lord.
After reading those letters, the question could be asked, “Who is the God in all those letters?”
The only answer could be “the Father”.
So how is it anyone could claim that any person who wrote those letters or anyone who reads them would agree Jesus is the God in those letters?

Are some people seeing different words when they read those letters?
Perhaps they see something like, “Blessed be the God and Father of our God Jesus Christ”??

Reading it like that makes their God Jesus Christ, and Jesus’ God the Father????

How do you get around that not being two Gods?
I wonder what all the text would read like if we replaced the word “Lord” with “God” when referring to Jesus.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again LeviR,

I notice from your post #168 that the letters written to the churches refer to God as the Father and Jesus as the Lord.
I also notice that they address God as the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, I am interested in the anticipated response from Free to these statements. Perhaps I should have continued on with the next letters, and I will be interested in the Greek of these as well:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Your references from Peter are to some extent ambiguous.

What is ambiguous? The grammar is very clear and straightforward.

I doubt that you can claim the same for the following, where the One God, God the Father

Again, this is begging the question.

is clearly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God:

Of course they’re distinguished from each other—they are two distinct persons, as the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.

1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I suppose you will quote the Greek here also, but I doubt that the Greek will help you avoid what is very clear in the English translation.

Do the following statements by Paul support your cause?

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Philippians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

I am confident that your Greek will not rescue you here either.

I wish I could say that I think you have entirely missed the point in my previous post, as these have no bearing on it. But, I can’t, since it seems a rather clear purposeful avoidance of having to deal what is plainly written. If you could actually deal with the material in my post, that would be great.

 

[Free]

Greetings again LeviR,

Yes, I am interested in the anticipated response from Free to these statements. Perhaps I should have continued on with the next letters, and I will be interested in the Greek of these as well:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

Same as previous post.

 

[JLB]

I know it.
I also know that until the Word put on flesh and was born of a woman, that there was no "Jesus".

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5


So you don’t believe Jesus created the heavens and the earth?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, I am not trying to suggest there is anything absurd about it and if God wants to do something He's free to do it without restriction of course. I am not trying to place limitations of God, but simply stating what I believe the Scripture is trying to say to us.

So I will just begin with a foundation of what I believe in regards to Exodus 3. In the context, Moses was actually in the wilderness on the mountain and for sure there were miscellaneous plants growing about. There was a bush and it was already on fire. While it's possible to single this verse out and interpret the element of fire as a symbol to describe God, the more likely fit with the context is the Moses was actually looking at a real bush with real fire.

It says in Ex. 3:2 "the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..."

I have heard the argument many times the angel of the LORD (AOTL) = the LORD in Scripture. I don't believe that's the argument you're trying to make, (if I have misunderstood you please let me know) but just to clarify the AOTL is not the LORD.

In Zechariah 1:7-17, the we can see a few different things concerning the AOTL and the LORD because we get a rare chance to put them side-by-side and compare:

1. The word of the LORD came to Zechariah. (v.7)
2. An angel begins speaking the word of the LORD (v.9)
3. The AOTL speaks to the LORD (v.12)
4. The LORD speaks to the AOTL (v.13)
5. The AOTL proclaims something the LORD said (v.14-17)

So as the name already suggests, the AOTL is indeed a messenger of the LORD and in Zech. 1:7-17 the AOTL is acting as a messenger for the LORD and is distinct from the LORD because they are speaking to each other.

So back to Exodus 3. When the AOTL appeared in the bush and began saying this and that, while it may seem like the LORD is talking, actually the messenger is the one doing the talking, even though the LORD is still present and observing, while relaying the messages the LORD was giving. That's how God does things. Speaking from my own personal experience, it has been confusing at first, but Scripture confirms this to be the case.

Angels are messengers. That’s what the word in Hebrew means.

Messengers bring a message or word.

The Angel or Messenger of the LORD would also be the Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God. John 1:1


Angels are also spirits. The Angel of the LORD would also be the Spirit of the LORD.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17


Angels are also sons of God. The Angel of the LORD would also be called the Son of God.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


At the end of the day, we know the scriptures are clear, the Angel of the LORD is God. Not God the Father but God the Son.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

Compared side by side we see the truth.

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5
So you don’t believe Jesus created the heavens and the earth?

I do believe God created all things by Jesus Christ.
However, Jesus Christ was still the Word, at the time of creation.
He had not yet taken on flesh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Of course they’re distinguished from each other—they are two distinct persons, as the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.

The distinction between God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Please also refer to my thread "The Yahweh Name".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

John 1:1-14 concerning the Word is poetic personification. We can know this with certainty because the Old Testament doesn't have any quote or references to anyone named the Word there in the beginning with God. After the beginning, there are still no verses about the Word saying or doing anything

Are you saying this statement by the Apostle John is false?

• the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1


And the Apostle Paul -

• God was manifested in the flesh,

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


And the Apostle Peter -

• our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



Do you really expect the Christians of this community to believe you, and therefore reject the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ and what they wrote in scripture by the Holy Spirit?





JLB

 

[tigger II]

Are you saying this statement by the Apostle John is false?

• the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1


And the Apostle Paul -

• God was manifested in the flesh,

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


And the Apostle Peter -

• our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1



Do you really expect the Christians of this community to believe you, and therefore reject the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ and what they wrote in scripture by the Holy Spirit?





JLB

..................................
1. John 1:1 - How could John mean what is mistranslated here when he concludes his Gospel with "these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...." - John 20:31, RSV. Although I know from experience that no one here will actually read and discuss my personal study, nevertheless, here is a link to my shortest version:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

2. 1 Tim. 3:16 - Not many modern Bibles fall for this. http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/1-tim-316-god-manifest-in-flesh-kjv.html

3. 2 Peter 1:1 - Most Bibles like this translation (for obvious reasons), but there is an alternate understanding based on the grammar usually ignored by them (for obvious reasons): - http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/08/sharps-rule-primer_29.html

 

[JLB]

How could John mean what is mistranslated here

Not many modern Bibles

Most Bibles like this translation

Ok.

 

[Free]

..................................
1. John 1:1 - How could John mean what is mistranslated here when he concludes his Gospel with "these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...." - John 20:31, RSV. Although I know from experience that no one here will actually read and discuss my personal study, nevertheless, here is a link to my shortest version:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

I glanced at your study as I have in the past. First, John 1:1c cannot ever be translated as “a god” because Yahweh repeatedly states and it is repeatedly stated throughout Scripture, that there is only one God and there is no such thing as a god.

Second, just a cursory check and the second point in your study—“The next point is that when John (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke also) clearly meant “God” when writing theos (the form of the Greek word which ends in ς), he always used the definite article (‘the’ in English - ho in Greek): ho theos”—is wrong. In John 8:54, John uses theos without the article, and if there is one instance, there could be more. I believe I have pointed this out to you before and yet you still haven’t changed it.

Third, John rights that in Thomas’s exclamation to Jesus, he uses ho theos. So, you should at least be consistent and acknowledge that Thomas called Jesus his God.