The Word was also around, "...with God...". (John 1:1)
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?
- Thread starter My Rock
- Start date
Got a verse for that ?
Numbers 22:22-34
I don't see an angel opening anyone's eyes in those verse.
The Lord opens Balaam's eyes in verse 31, and then he saw the angel.
You do or you don’t see the angel opening the eyes of Balaam to see the angel. Which is it?
Who saw the angel before the angel opened the eyes of Balaam to see him?
Greetings again Hopeful 2 and Fish153,
"From non-attention to these Figures, translators have made blunders as serious as they are foolish. Sometimes they have translated the figure literally, totally ignoring its existence; sometimes they have taken it fully into account, and have translated, not according o the letter, but according to the spirit; sometimes they have taken literal words and translated them figuratively. Commentators and interpreters, from inattention to the figures, have been led astray from the real meaning of many important passages of God's Word; while ignorance of them has been the fruitful parent of error and false doctrine."
Kind regards
Trevor
I find your response interesting and amusing. It reminds me of the comments by Ethelbert Bullinger in his book "Figures of Speech used in the Bible - Explained and Illustrated":
"From non-attention to these Figures, translators have made blunders as serious as they are foolish. Sometimes they have translated the figure literally, totally ignoring its existence; sometimes they have taken it fully into account, and have translated, not according o the letter, but according to the spirit; sometimes they have taken literal words and translated them figuratively. Commentators and interpreters, from inattention to the figures, have been led astray from the real meaning of many important passages of God's Word; while ignorance of them has been the fruitful parent of error and false doctrine."
The Hebrew word in Genesis 1:26-27 "God" and Psalm 8:5 "Angels" is Elohim and is plural.
The context is the Book of Hebrews, and many of the Jews were moving away from seeing salvation through Jesus and returning to the Law of Moses. The Jesus that these Jews accepted at Pentecost and afterwards is the same today and forever that they had previously accepted. It is not saying "from eternity".
It is a singular speaker, not three gods in one.
Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Kind regards
Trevor
Clearly the Logos has the Fathers nature, as in about the Son. God was the Logos. It's about the nature of the Logos who is not the Father and is with the Father in the beginning. There was no Son of Man at that point in history. You wouldn't state Jesus was with the Father in the beginning.
Why do you think God Himself states about His Firstborn
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy
Its about His nature
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
NO, I see the Lord opening eyes.
It is written..."Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way,..." (Num 22:31)
The ass saw the angel, without any help.
The Lord opened the ass' mouth too.
It is written..." And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass,..." (Num 22:28)
Is Bullinger a non-sinner that can be trusted ?
And can I ignore his words like I do the words of all servants of sin ?
So what has that got to do with the Word's existence before taking in flesh to be born as Jesus ?
Would you mind providing evidence of that conclusion ?
If "forever" isn't eternity, what is ?
Are you opining that the Word was created somewhere along the line ?
I can't agree with that.
I was merely proving the point. Angels don’t materialize into men. Man was made in their image. In order to see them, they must open the eyes of man to do so.
Your point is irrelevant.
Man was made in the image of God and of the Word.
Your posts are starting to look like angel worship.
It is written..."Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God." (Col 2:18-19)
The "Head" is not an angel.
My point proved!
God can make angels appear in any form He knows will be beneficial to His ways.
God used angels in a bunch of places, in the forms of men.
Lot's visitors at Sodom come to mind. (Gen 19)
He made man to appear in their form.
God made man in His and the Word's form.
Not in the form of angels.
And? What has that got to do with God saying "Let US make man in OUR image"? In Hebrew the word is ELOHIM and it is plural. God uses it later when he says "Let US go down..." when he visits the Tower of Babel. God is referring to Himself---not to angels.
"It is a singular speaker, not three gods in one."
That is exactly where you have no understanding. God is not made up of three "gods". God is ONE being made up of three PERSONS. The Seraphim declare in Isaiah 6: "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God Almighty". Why don't they say it (4) times or (2)? God is a Trinity of Persons----ONE God in three persons. When he says "LET US" he is speaking as one God. It is beyond our finite understanding. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not to YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING" (Proverbs 3:5). If we try to figure out the Trinity using our own understanding we will state things like your sentence above about "three gods".
hishandmaiden
Member
Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who has always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the beginning was the Word. This was proof that Jesus always existed, from the beginning.
Greetings again Hopeful 2 and Fish153,
I mentioned the Wise Woman Wisdom as depicted by Solomon, and the reason why I introduced this is that I consider that this is similar in some aspects, and to some extent parallel with the "Word" in John 1:1. Let me be very clear, there is no such Being as the Wise Woman, Wisdom. The Wise Woman Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. Similarly there is no mention of a Being called The Word in John 1:1. This is also a personification, or a similar figure of speech.
Kind regards
Trevor
We seem to be on a completely different wavelength on a number of subjects. I do not know whether you have access and use various Bible reference books. I am one of the two librarians for our meeting, but I also have a much larger personal collection, in print and electronic. I do not endorse all of Bullinger's theology, but I have three of his books and find them useful reference books. Of course we need to be cautious of some aspects of their bias and errors.
I mentioned the Wise Woman Wisdom as depicted by Solomon, and the reason why I introduced this is that I consider that this is similar in some aspects, and to some extent parallel with the "Word" in John 1:1. Let me be very clear, there is no such Being as the Wise Woman, Wisdom. The Wise Woman Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. Similarly there is no mention of a Being called The Word in John 1:1. This is also a personification, or a similar figure of speech.
You seem to have mixed two of the discussion subjects.
I am surprised that you are not to some extent familiar with this. Any simple commentary may be helpful. I could write a few pages including quoting verses from Hebrews. I am surprised that this is "new" to you. Over the years I have attended at least three Bible Class series on the Book of Hebrews. I also as a Librarian keep copies of these classes in mp3/slides format and more recently video mp4 format. Does this indicate your spiritual environment? Perhaps this is similar to your perspective on reference books.
God's Wisdom and God's Word (Logos) are part of His Eternal qualities from Eternity to Eternity.
I consider that there were three levels of holiness with the Tabernacle and the Temple. With the Tabernacle there was a Holy Portion with the Laver and Altar of Burnt Offering, where the people and the Levites could enter. Then there was the Holy Place where only the Priests could enter and minister. Then there was the Most Holy Place where God's glory was revealed and only the High Priest could enter once a year. I consider that "Holy, Holy, Holy" is speaking of the unique Holiness of the Most Holy Place, where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father dwelt between the Cherubim. Remarkably in Isaiah 6, Isaiah had in vision seen inside the Most Holy Place and saw Jesus Enthroned as King-Priest.
Kind regards
Trevor
When he says “Let us go down” it refers to the Angel of the Lord and his buddies. His companions, his fellows, the other mighty ones.