Is Jesus Christ a created being (Begotten Son) or has He always existed alongside God the Father (Eternal Son)?

[Fish153]

Trevor--Greetings again Hopeful 2 and Fish153,

We seem to be on a completely different wavelength on a number of subjects. I do not know whether you have access and use various Bible reference books. I am one of the two librarians for our meeting, but I also have a much larger personal collection, in print and electronic. I do not endorse all of Bullinger's theology, but I have three of his books and find them useful reference books. Of course we need to be cautious of some aspects of their bias and errors.

I mentioned the Wise Woman Wisdom as depicted by Solomon, and the reason why I introduced this is that I consider that this is similar in some aspects, and to some extent parallel with the "Word" in John 1:1. Let me be very clear, there is no such Being as the Wise Woman, Wisdom. The Wise Woman Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. Similarly there is no mention of a Being called The Word in John 1:1. This is also a personification, or a similar figure of speech.

You seem to have mixed two of the discussion subjects.

I am surprised that you are not to some extent familiar with this. Any simple commentary may be helpful. I could write a few pages including quoting verses from Hebrews. I am surprised that this is "new" to you. Over the years I have attended at least three Bible Class series on the Book of Hebrews. I also as a Librarian keep copies of these classes in mp3/slides format and more recently video mp4 format. Does this indicate your spiritual environment? Perhaps this is similar to your perspective on reference books.

God's Wisdom and God's Word (Logos) are part of His Eternal qualities from Eternity to Eternity.

I consider that there were three levels of holiness with the Tabernacle and the Temple. With the Tabernacle there was a Holy Portion with the Laver and Altar of Burnt Offering, where the people and the Levites could enter. Then there was the Holy Place where only the Priests could enter and minister. Then there was the Most Holy Place where God's glory was revealed and only the High Priest could enter once a year. I consider that "Holy, Holy, Holy" is speaking of the unique Holiness of the Most Holy Place, where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father dwelt between the Cherubim. Remarkably in Isaiah 6, Isaiah had in vision seen inside the Most Holy Place and saw Jesus Enthroned as King-Priest.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor said: "The Wise Woman Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. Similarly there is no mention of a Being called The Word in John 1:1. This is also a personification, or a similar figure of speech".

Really? "And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME is called The Word of God". (REV. 19:13)

The WORD OF GOD is not a "figure of speech"--it is a NAME. The WORD OF GOD is an ACTUAL PERSON. You will find no place in the Bible where the WISE WOMAN, WISDOM is described as an ACTUAL PERSON.

You are literally going out of your way to try to prove Jesus is not God. John 1:1 CLEARLY states that He is God: "In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with God, and THE WORD was God". Revelation 19:13 clearly states that the WORD OF GOD is the name of an actual PERSON----the same PERSON named in John 1:1. You have to ask yourself why you are trying so hard to step around or change verses that are clearly representing Jesus as God. WHY would you WANT to do that?

 

[Fish153]

When he says “Let us go down” it refers to the Angel of the Lord and his buddies. His companions, his fellows, the other mighty ones.

Why? Because YOU say so and interpret it that way? A huge majority of Bible scholars would argue that point with you--knowing the Hebrew Language and having studied linguistics. 99% of Scholars would state that it is GOD HIMSELF saying "Let us go down"---not the angel of the Lord and his "buddies".

 

[Fish153]

John 1:1, 14.
a Trinity is born.

Levi--- No. THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH. The second person of the Trinity--the Son. "For God so loved the world that he gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

 

[JLB]

"Let US make man in our image" is not referring to angels. The Hebrew word is ELOHIM which is plural.

Amen.


Us refers to Elohim, the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Greetings again Hopeful 2 and Fish153,

We seem to be on a completely different wavelength on a number of subjects. I do not know whether you have access and use various Bible reference books. I am one of the two librarians for our meeting, but I also have a much larger personal collection, in print and electronic. I do not endorse all of Bullinger's theology, but I have three of his books and find them useful reference books. Of course we need to be cautious of some aspects of their bias and errors.

Why would you spend time or money on books by someone you don't endorse ?

I mentioned the Wise Woman Wisdom as depicted by Solomon, and the reason why I introduced this is that I consider that this is similar in some aspects, and to some extent parallel with the "Word" in John 1:1. Let me be very clear, there is no such Being as the Wise Woman, Wisdom. The Wise Woman Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. Similarly there is no mention of a Being called The Word in John 1:1. This is also a personification, or a similar figure of speech.

There is no parallel.
Wisdom is the personification of wisdom, while the Word was with God and is God.
The Word is also cited in Rev 19:13 as an actual being.
That is the Word who took on flesh and was born of Mary.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fish153, JLB and Hopeful 2,

The WORD OF GOD is not a "figure of speech"--it is a NAME. The WORD OF GOD is an ACTUAL PERSON.

Jesus is the development of the quality, plan, purpose, character, Logos of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

John 1:14 (KJV: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There is no mention of the transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary, but as the Son of God he was begotten by the Father as his father, and with Mary as his mother And the emphasis in this passage is upon his glory, and that glory was not a physical glory, but the glory of the Divine character, he was full of grace and truth.

You will find no place in the Bible where the WISE WOMAN, WISDOM is described as an ACTUAL PERSON.

I agree.

Us refers to Elohim, the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I understand "Elohim" to represent the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to share his plan, purpose, character and work with others, and in the Pentateuch this sharing is mainly revealed in and through the Angels and the human Judges. The Angels were present in the Garden of Eden, Genesis chapters 1-3. This prepares the way for the greater application of the word "Elohim" in the work, ministry and character of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. "Elohim" is part of the family of words which includes "El" and "Eloah".

Why would you spend time or money on books by someone you don't endorse ?

One of the most interesting use of figurative or similar language is the various ways "sin" is used in Romans 7 and 8, and I especially like the following key verse in Paul's dissertation.

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful (or sin's) flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now if I was to carefully consider these usages, I would rely on prayer, private study and meditation, and THEN on my various reference books that could include in-house commentaries, outside commentaries, word dictionaries and possibly Ethelbert Bullinger's reference book on Figures of Speech. This particular verse has been one of my interests over many years. Possibly you have not seriously considered this verse.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Fish153, JLB and Hopeful 2,

Jesus is the development of the quality, plan, purpose, character, Logos of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

John 1:14 (KJV: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

There is no mention of the transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary, but as the Son of God he was begotten by the Father as his father, and with Mary as his mother And the emphasis in this passage is upon his glory, and that glory was not a physical glory, but the glory of the Divine character, he was full of grace and truth.

I agree.

I understand "Elohim" to represent the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to share his plan, purpose, character and work with others, and in the Pentateuch this sharing is mainly revealed in and through the Angels and the human Judges. The Angels were present in the Garden of Eden, Genesis chapters 1-3. This prepares the way for the greater application of the word "Elohim" in the work, ministry and character of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. "Elohim" is part of the family of words which includes "El" and "Eloah".

One of the most interesting use of figurative or similar language is the various ways "sin" is used in Romans 7 and 8, and I especially like the following key verse in Paul's dissertation.

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful (or sin's) flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now if I was to carefully consider these usages, I would rely on prayer, private study and meditation, and THEN on my various reference books that could include in-house commentaries, outside commentaries, word dictionaries and possibly Ethelbert Bullinger's reference book on Figures of Speech. This particular verse has been one of my interests over many years. Possibly you have not seriously considered this verse.

Kind regards
Trevor

John 1:1;14
A Trinity is born. Poof

 

[JLB]

I understand "Elohim" to represent the One God, Yahweh, God the Father who delights to share his plan, purpose, character and work with others, and in the Pentateuch this sharing is mainly revealed in and through the Angels and the human Judges.

God does share His plan and purpose with those who are trustworthy.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1


What is your understanding of this verse concerning the heavens and the earth being created?


Did God create the heavens and the earth with the help of angels or “others” and human judges or do you believe God alone created the heavens and the earth ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

God does share His plan and purpose with those who are trustworthy.

Yes, and I add again "character" and "work". For example the work of the Judges in Israel and the work of the Angels Gabriel and Michael. Many of the Judges were unfaithful and this included most of the Sanhedrin in the days of Jesus, who opposed the teaching and ministry of Jesus and these Judges were ripe for judgement as Psalm 82 indicates.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1
What is your understanding of this verse concerning the heavens and the earth being created?

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, using His remarkable and infinite Power and His remarkable and infinite Wisdom. The word "Elohim" used here is plural but the verb "created" is singular.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV): In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This can indicate that Yahweh alone created everything, or that some aspects of the work could have been delegated by Yahweh to the Angels to use God's wisdom and power. This is definitely the case with the creation of Adam and Eve. Veni, vidi, vici.

Did God create the heavens and the earth with the help of angels or “others” and human judges

The human Judges were appointed by Moses many years after the Creation, and the title "Elohim" was given to them as stated by Jesus, speaking of their responsibility to faithfully administer the Law on behalf of Yahweh:

John 10:30–38 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

This is a key supplied by Jesus to understand the Bible use of the word "Elohim".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, using His remarkable and infinite Power and His remarkable and infinite Wisdom. The word "Elohim" used here is plural but the verb "created" is singular.

The Elohim; Father, Son and Holy Spirit created the heavens and the earth.

Plural God did the singular work of creation.


The Holy Spirit through Paul says it this way —

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:15-17

• All things were created through Him and for Him.

JLB

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

The Elohim; Father, Son and Holy Spirit created the heavens and the earth.
Plural God did the singular work of creation.

I am not a language expert, but I understand that the sense is more "In the beginning God (Elohim) (he) created", in other words only One Person created. The actual sequence in the Hebrew according to Jay Green in his Interlinear Bible is "In the beginning created God ..." and in the The Hebrew Bible: Anderson Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis has the following "in beginning of he created God ..." adding the singular depicting the person. It does not say "they created". The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. Yahweh is singular "I will be", not "They will be".

All things were created through Him and for Him.

Again I am not a Greek expert, and I will not fully answer this. I understand that this is speaking about the Spiritual Creation, and also that the natural creation was created with Jesus in mind in the end view.

Kind regard
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I am not a language expert, but I understand that the sense is more "In the beginning God (Elohim) (he) created", in other words only One Person created.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26


God - Elohim

The same God (Elohim) who created the heavens and the earth, said let US make man in OUR image.





JLB

 

[Free]

I am not a language expert, but I understand that the sense is more "In the beginning God (Elohim) (he) created", in other words only One Person created.

This is fallaciously begging the question. You're beginning with the premise that God is only one person and then concluding the same.

Translations properly use "he" in relation to God because there is and ever will be only one God (monotheism). This is also why most of the time when God speaks, he uses the singular pronoun "I." The issue of whether he is one person or more than one is an ontological question--God's self-existent nature--which is quite different from the issue of monotheism vs polytheism.

 

[Fish153]

This is fallaciously begging the question. You're beginning with the premise that God is only one person and then concluding the same.

Translations properly use "he" in relation to God because there is and ever will be only one God (monotheism). This is also why most of the time when God speaks, he uses the singular pronoun "I." The issue of whether he is one person or more than one is an ontological question--God's self-existent nature--which is quite different from the issue of monotheism vs polytheism.

Free--- exactly. Trevor is believing things with the assumption he is correct--and then "making" the word of God "fit" his idea. But the Bible says this of some who teach strange things:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". (Romans 10:3)

That is exactly the problem with some on this board. They refuse to believe in the Trinity, or in the Deity of Christ because of their OWN understanding. They need to "submit" to the teaching of the Word of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB, Free and Fish153,

The same God (Elohim) who created the heavens and the earth, said let US make man in OUR image.

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was speaking to his audience, the Angels Psalm 8:5. The Angels were active in the Garden

You're beginning with the premise that God is only one person and then concluding the same.

God is One, not three Deuteronomy 6:4.

Translations properly use "he" in relation to God because there is and ever will be only one God (monotheism). This is also why most of the time when God speaks, he uses the singular pronoun "I." The issue of whether he is one person or more than one is an ontological question--God's self-existent nature--which is quite different from the issue of monotheism vs polytheism.

Yes, Trinitarians use many words to try to establish their three in one concept.

Free--- exactly. Trevor is believing things with the assumption he is correct--and then "making" the word of God "fit" his idea. But the Bible says this of some who teach strange things:

I have noticed that you were not able to answer many of the points that I stated in my earlier discussion with you, and since then you have been ONLY judgmental. Please be careful as this can rebound. Would you like me to remind you of some of these posts.
Matthew 7:1–2 (KJV): 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

God is One, not three Deuteronomy 6:4.

I'm sure I've pointed this out to you before, but have done so numerous times to the anti-Trinitarians here: Deut 6:4 is about monotheism only and says nothing about the self-existent nature of God. To suggest otherwise is to conflate monotheism and ontology. They are two different ideas and I'm not sure why no anti-Trinitarian seems to understand this.

It is worth bearing in mind, though, that while the Shema says nothing about whether God is one person or three, it actually leaves the door open to the one God being three persons, that is, a compound unity.

Yes, Trinitarians use many words to try to establish their three in one concept.

What was wrong with any of those words I used?

 

[JLB]

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was speaking to his audience, the Angels Psalm 8:5. The Angels were active in the Garden

Where does it say in Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 1:26 that God was speaking to His audience the angels.?


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

• Let Us make man in Our image

Your theory has angels as co creators with God.

Angels are created beings.



JLB

 

[Fish153]

Greetings again JLB, Free and Fish153,

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father was speaking to his audience, the Angels Psalm 8:5. The Angels were active in the Garden

God is One, not three Deuteronomy 6:4.

Yes, Trinitarians use many words to try to establish their three in one concept.

I have noticed that you were not able to answer many of the points that I stated in my earlier discussion with you, and since then you have been ONLY judgmental. Please be careful as this can rebound. Would you like me to remind you of some of these posts.
Matthew 7:1–2 (KJV): 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor--- I'm not sure what points I have been unable to answer. I think though that you are forgetting how "one" can be used. "We have ONE Council in this city". Yet the "council" consists of 7 members. One day some Jehovah's Witnesses came to the door and we were discussing the Trinity. I happened to look up (it was a hot day and I had the overhead fan going) and realized that the fan was a good example (in a very basic way of course) of the Trinity. The FAN had three EQUAL BLADES that when spinning caused the air to swirl down and cool those below. All 3 blades were of equal size. Yet we don't say "hey, can you turn the FANS on"? when we refer to it. No--we say "Can you turn the FAN on?" It is ONE FAN but made up of THREE EQUAL BLADES. Again, I realize this may be a very elemental and perhaps even stupid example of what the Trinity could be. But again---the FAN is one fan. But it is made up of THREE BLADES OF EQUAL SIZE. Each blade is not a "fan"---no--the three blades make up the ONE FAN.

In a very similar way----though vastly greater of course, God is ONE BEING----but made up of THREE PERSONS. They are EQUAL---The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. You cannot say that "the Son" is "a" God, or that the Holy Spirit is "a" God, or the Father is "a" God. The 3 PERSONS in the TRINTY are God---ONE GOD in three persons.

Of course, we cannot fully understand the Trinity. We are finite---God is infinite. But the Trinity is most definitely revealed in the Bible--in many places actually.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free, JLB and Fish153,

It is worth bearing in mind, though, that while the Shema says nothing about whether God is one person or three, it actually leaves the door open to the one God being three persons, that is, a compound unity.

I doubt that the children of Israel who listened to Moses believed that this was teaching a compound unity, neither did the scribe who listened to Jesus.

Where does it say in ..... Genesis 1:26 that God was speaking to His audience the angels.?

Psalm 8:5 is David's commentary and summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Psalm 8 separates Yahweh from Elohim, and in this context Elohim are the Angels. The new creation, centred in the creation of Jesus is also revealed in Psalm 8:5.

Your theory has angels as co creators with God.
Angels are created beings.

Who designed the daffodil and the rose? Who looked after the events surrounding the Prince of Persia? When did the Angels start working? Who or what were the Cherubim that were placed at the entrance to the Garden after Adam and Eve were expelled?

In a very similar way----though vastly greater of course, God is ONE BEING----but made up of THREE PERSONS.

This is part of the Trinity language. Peter, John and James were three human beings. Jesus is a human being, now exalted and glorified. He is not a third part of a Being.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Psalm 8:5 is David's commentary and summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Psalm 8 separates Yahweh from Elohim, and in this context Elohim are the Angels. The new creation, centred in the creation of Jesus is also revealed in Psalm 8:5.

Where does it say in Psalm 8:5 that this is David’s commentary of Genesis 1:26-27


For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
Psalm 8:5


God created the heavens and the earth.
God created mankind.


Where does it say in Genesis 1:1 or Genesis 1:26 that God was speaking to His audience the angels.?


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

• Let Us make man in Our image

The same God that created the heavens and the earth also created mankind.



JLB