Is Jesus considered to be God?

[TheCatholic]

Are you serious?

Serious in the extreme.

 

[Drew]

Actually relevant biblical arguments must pass the test of functionality in how they work to fulfill the plan of God. If they do not they are not doctrine but rather philosophy. They have a form of godliness but deny the power therein. The plan of God is not subject to ones scriptural interpretations. Biblical interpretation is subject to the plan of God.
To say that Christ role as our example is a minor part of his ministry is absolutely silly. Perhaps you say that because you do not believe it is necessary for us to work with God to become like Christ?

I am not sure exactly what your critierion is here. But in any event, you provide no argument, no actual defence, for your position of what the "plan of God" actually is. It seems that you think that it is to mold us to be like Christ. I suggest that this is quite a simplification. And, of course, I too have the responsibility to defend my claim about the "plan of God" is. I am not prepared to do that right now, but hopefully I will have somethig to say later.

If your doctrine is correct then please tell me how your doctrine makes Christ a more viable example for me. How does it help me to become more like him? How does it give me hope?

This begs the question. You seem to simply assume that the "main issue" is for Christ to be an "example". If I agreed with you on that, I would perhaps agree that it would seem more sensible for God to send us a "Christ" who is not "divine".

But I think that the plan of God is much bigger than to "give us an example to follow".

 

[Yahoshea]

God's plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom he can fellowship. Children with the same character as Himself. After the fall God had a two fold plan. to redeem mankind with a perfect lamb sacrifice and to give example on how to walk with God and learn his character.
1. God has a plan, he is not arbituary in what he does.
2. God wants us to know Him and His plan so that we can work with him to complete it.
The actual meaning of “faith†from the Hebrew carries the meaning of working with God to accomplish His goals in the Earth.
3. The center piece of God’s plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom He can have fellowship. For this to happen it is necessary that His children develop a like character as His.

Adam and Eve were created perfect but not mature. They were to fellowship and grow with God as their father. There was no need for a savior till they fell. God’s original purpose of raising sons and daughters was still in effect. God used prophets, teachers, Kings and others to teach us how to be like Him in character. However, these example ultimately failed to one extent or another.
Psalms 82 is a perfect example. YHWH rebukes the leaders of Israel for not being God’s to the people. God expected them to function as He would toward their charges. To have the same character as he would display toward the people. Jesus says the same thing to the leaders of Israel in John 10. He has been showing by way of example time and again what it is to have the character of God in a man. This is why the pharases hated him so. He healed the woman on the sabath as an example to the pharasees of the mercy/character of God. They attempted to hold to traditions and Jesus acted in accordance with His Father’s character.
4. God gave us the perfect example of what it is like to have all the character of God possible in a human being. A human being with all the weaknesses and frailities of other men His son showed us of how to walk/live within God’s plan.

Anyone who has ever done any teaching knows that examples are one of the most effective ways to teach. God makes comparisons and gives examples all through the scriptures. We are compared to David and solomon. We are compared to the fallen Adam and for some their father the Devil. Paul and other apostles exhort us to imitate them as they imitate Christ. To follow them as examples.
Which would be a more appropriate example and give me more hope ---
That a “God†can be raised from the dead or that a “manâ€, like me in every way, can be raised.
That a “God†can over come sin or that a “man†can overcome.
5. Because of the fall of Adam God set in place a plan for our redemption through a blood sacrifice. Jesus, the spotless lamb, sacrificed his life to buy our position back as sons of God.
6. In order for this plan to be fullfilled God has set in place teachings/doctrines to help us to function properly within His plan.

Everything that God has done through human history has been for the purpose of bringing about the completion of His plan. Anything that hinders or detracts from this process is not of God. Everything that God reveals to mankind is for the purpose of bringing about His plan. God does not engage in knowledge that serves no purpose. In other words God and His teachings are functional. They do something to help bring about His plan for His creation. Intelectual understanding is far less important to God then experiancial understandings that help our motives and intentions line up with His.



It really does not matter what a person believes they can prove in scripture, if the conclussion of that interpretation does nothing functional to bring about God’s plan. All of us are sesceptable to “imaginations that lift themselves above the truth of Godâ€. The true test of a teaching is does it work toward fullfilling God’s plan on the Earth? Dose it serve the purpose of God or is it just idle mind chatter and philosophy. Simply put, God’s plan is not subject to our interpretaion of scripture but rather our interpretaion must be subject to God’s plan.

Christ is not calling a 12 year old who still plays with barbies to be his Bride. He wants a perfected mature bride that has come the same way as he to perfection. Christ was perfected by what he suffered and so are we. We are given an example in His walk to show us the way.
1 John 2:6?the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

If Jesus is a God can we ever walk in the manner as he walked? Does God ask us to do things he knows are impossible for us to do?
1 Peter 2:21? For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

 

[TheCatholic]

God's plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom he can fellowship......,

Do you "fellowship" with your kids, or do you raise them and discipline them when necessary? What parent has children for the purpose of "fellowshipping" with them? What a nonsensical statement

 

[Yahoshea]

God's plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom he can fellowship......,

Do you "fellowship" with your kids, or do you raise them and discipline them when necessary? What parent has children for the purpose of "fellowshipping" with them? What a nonsensical statement

What is nonsense is to say a father does not fellowship with his children. Certainly a father raises and disciplines his children. He teaches them by showing example (like Christ) but when a child is grown to adulthood he is no longer under the tutor of the law but is a free willed agent. It is with these adult offspring that God wishes to fellowship. those that insist on being under the law and not following Christ as our example (by making him a God) will not attain that maturity and will remain children in the kingdom.
The Torah which is usually translated "law" is a good example of God as our father teaching us. Law is a poor interpretation. the Torah were a set of wisdoms taught from father to son. these wisdoms were to help the child learn how to function properly in the adult world. If the child tried to act within these wisdoms but fell short, he was commended for his attempt and instructed on how to do it better the next time. It was only is a child stood in defiance of the instruction of the Father that he was disciplined. Everything was done for the purpose of teaching wisdom which in turn develops character. this is the same with God. He teaches for the purposes of developing character in His children.
The blood of Christ allows us to come boldly unto the thrown of Grace and learning his wisdom teaches us character that we may fellowship with him and Christ. Not as children but full grown adults in his likeness and image.

 

[Yahoshea]

thecatholic,
I ask you as I have asked others. What fruit comes from believing in the Trinity or specifically believing that Christ is a God? How does that help me become like him. How can I use that to give me hope or faith to carry on?
God does not deal in intellectual head data that bears no fruit. He deals with doctrines/teachings that teach wisdom and changes our character.
Head date without positive fruit is nothing more then idle philosophy.
show me the fruit of your doctrine. How does it change my life?

 

[Drew]

God's plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom he can fellowship. Children with the same character as Himself. After the fall God had a two fold plan. to redeem mankind with a perfect lamb sacrifice and to give example on how to walk with God and learn his character.
1. God has a plan, he is not arbituary in what he does.
2. God wants us to know Him and His plan so that we can work with him to complete it.
The actual meaning of “faith†from the Hebrew carries the meaning of working with God to accomplish His goals in the Earth.
3. The center piece of God’s plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom He can have fellowship. For this to happen it is necessary that His children develop a like character as His.

I suggest that you have not correctly identified the centre-piece of God's plan. It's not "all about us", it is about a plan to redeem all of the creation as well.

It appears that your argument against the divinity of Jesus is that a divine Jesus is not a Jesus with whom we mere humans can identify and see as an example. Well, Jesus did not come to "set an example". He came to fulfill the Abrahamic covnenant that God would use the Jews to be a light to the nations. And the way he did this was by dying on the cross. Now you seem to acknowledge the importance of the cross. But you seem to ignore the possibility that it was only God Himself, in the form of the Jesus that was able to do the work that was done on the cross.

Obviously a "purely human" Jesus is easier to identify with. But that's not really the point. The point is that no human being could go to the cross and do that work - it had to be God. Paul gives us a flavour of this in Romans 3. In the early part of the chapter, Paul laments that the Jew has not been faithful to the covenant. And he then immediately goes to include the Gentile, leading to his famous all have sinned passage.

So Paul has all mankind in view as hoplessly sinful. Then what does Paul say?:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed

Paul is not talking about a righteous status that we get from God, he is talking about the righteous actions of God. All men are unrighteous - no man can fulfill the covenant. So God does the work Himself. And what form does it take - the faithful actions of Jesus:

the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ

Let's recap. Paul has placed all humanity in the place of unrighteousness. How is the problem of sin and death then to be solved? God has to act Himself, since all humans are unrigheous. And the form in which He acts is through Jesus.

Now if Jesus is a "mere human", then he (Jesus) is included in the mass of humanity who are in the place of unrighteousness. But He is not merely human, he is the embodiment of the God of Israel, acting to fulfill the covenant where no Jew or Gentile can.

 

[Yahoshea]

God's plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom he can fellowship. Children with the same character as Himself. After the fall God had a two fold plan. to redeem mankind with a perfect lamb sacrifice and to give example on how to walk with God and learn his character.
1. God has a plan, he is not arbituary in what he does.
2. God wants us to know Him and His plan so that we can work with him to complete it.
The actual meaning of “faith†from the Hebrew carries the meaning of working with God to accomplish His goals in the Earth.
3. The center piece of God’s plan is to raise up sons and daughters with whom He can have fellowship. For this to happen it is necessary that His children develop a like character as His.

I suggest that you have not correctly identified the centre-piece of God's plan. It's not "all about us", it is about a plan to redeem all of the creation as well.

It appears that your argument against the divinity of Jesus is that a divine Jesus is not a Jesus with whom we mere humans can identify and see as an example. Well, Jesus did not come to "set an example". He came to fulfill the Abrahamic covnenant that God would use the Jews to be a light to the nations. And the way he did this was by dying on the cross. Now you seem to acknowledge the importance of the cross. But you seem to ignore the possibility that it was only God Himself, in the form of the Jesus that was able to do the work that was done on the cross.

Obviously a "purely human" Jesus is easier to identify with. But that's not really the point. The point is that no human being could go to the cross and do that work - it had to be God. Paul gives us a flavour of this in Romans 3. In the early part of the chapter, Paul laments that the Jew has not been faithful to the covenant. And he then immediately goes to include the Gentile, leading to his famous all have sinned passage.

So Paul has all mankind in view as hoplessly sinful. Then what does Paul say?:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed

Paul is not talking about a righteous status that we get from God, he is talking about the righteous actions of God. All men are unrighteous - no man can fulfill the covenant. So God does the work Himself. And what form does it take - the faithful actions of Jesus:

the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ

Let's recap. Paul has placed all humanity in the place of unrighteousness. How is the problem of sin and death then to be solved? God has to act Himself, since all humans are unrigheous. And the form in which He acts is through Jesus.

Now if Jesus is a "mere human", then he (Jesus) is included in the mass of humanity who are in the place of unrighteousness. But He is not merely human, he is the embodiment of the God of Israel, acting to fulfill the covenant where no Jew or Gentile can.

You error on several points.
1. To believe that an immortal and eternal God can die in any form is silly.
2. To believe that the Judeo Christian God can change His character to one who can sin is silly.
The above two points nearly take you out of the realm of being Christian. You believe in a God that is not the God described clearly in the Bible.
From a scriptural standpoint you have also missed the mark. It was explicitly the death of a man that brought righteousness to the world. This entire context is talking about sin coming into the world through one man and righteousness coming through one man.

Romans 5
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
(Type and antitype. Adam compared to his human brother Christ.)
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one,(man – Adam) much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One (man), Jesus Christ.

IT WAS A MAN THAT WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD NOT A GOD ---
Acts 17:31?because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

God appointed a man to bring righteousness.

Jesus is a decendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the second Adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth untill all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)
Over 90 times Jesus is referred to as the “son of Manâ€. This does not depict deity, but humanity.

 

[seekandlisten]

God appointed a man to bring righteousness.

Jesus is a decendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the second Adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth untill all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)
Over 90 times Jesus is referred to as the “son of Manâ€. This does not depict deity, but humanity.

Thank you for posting this. I've never seen it laid out like this with scripture references in relevance to this ongoing debate among believers.

 

[Drew]

You error on several points.
1. To believe that an immortal and eternal God can die in any form is silly.
2. To believe that the Judeo Christian God can change His character to one who can sin is silly.
The above two points nearly take you out of the realm of being Christian. You believe in a God that is not the God described clearly in the Bible.

I believe you are mistaken on both points. With respect to point 1, you are applying your idea of an "internally indivisible God" to suggest that it is incoherent to suggest that "God dies". Well, obviously. If I believed that a single God cannot be constituted by mutliple persons, then, of course, the notion that an immortal God dies would be silly.

But I do not buy into that model for the nature of God. It is because you project your belief about the nature of God that my view seems "silly" (to use you words).

With respect to point 2, I have nowhere suggested that God "changes His character".

From a scriptural standpoint you have also missed the mark. It was explicitly the death of a man that brought righteousness to the world. This entire context is talking about sin coming into the world through one man and righteousness coming through one man.

Again, you make the mistake that so many who hold your position do - you project your own model of the concept of God onto me and demonstrate an error that results. But, as you surely must know, I do not embrace a concept of God that rules out divine embodiment. I am fully aware of Romans 5. Do you really think that I am so Biblically illiterate that I would be "surprised" by Paul's assertions that Jesus was "a man"?

Again, your points fail becuase you projects your commitment about the boundaries between the concepts of "god" and "man" onto me.

As per other posts, I appeal to the Biblical story, rather than to concepts which are properly seen as deriviative from that story. And the Bibical story has a promised return of YHWH to Zion and a "man" named Jesus embodying and incarnating that return.

 

[Drew]

Is there "room" in the Old Testament picture for a "human figure" assuming a position co-divinity with the Father?

Clearly yes. From the famous throne chariot vision of Ezekiel 1:

Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.

When one argues against the divinity of Jesus through appealing to the disjunctions between the category "man" and "god", one is putting the cart before the horse.

The categories of "god" and "man" are general categories that humans have developed. Fine. But for the Christian, such "definitions" are secondary. What is primary, or should be primary, is the Biblical story. The Jews did not "look in a dictionary" for their idea of the boundary between God and man - they looked to the Scriptures. The divinity of Jesus which believers need to embrace is not a vague, generalized divinity. It is a divinity to be understood in the specifically Jewish context.

And, as per this text from Ezekiel 1, and other texts like Daniel 7, the Jewish model of divinity indeed accomodates the notion of a "human figure" sharing the status of the Father.

 

[Yahoshea]

You error on several points.
1. To believe that an immortal and eternal God can die in any form is silly.
2. To believe that the Judeo Christian God can change His character to one who can sin is silly.
The above two points nearly take you out of the realm of being Christian. You believe in a God that is not the God described clearly in the Bible.

I believe you are mistaken on both points. With respect to point 1, you are applying your idea of an "internally indivisible God" to suggest that it is incoherent to suggest that "God dies". Well, obviously. If I believed that a single God cannot be constituted by mutliple persons, then, of course, the notion that an immortal God dies would be silly.

But I do not buy into that model for the nature of God. It is because you project your belief about the nature of God that my view seems "silly" (to use you words).

With respect to point 2, I have nowhere suggested that God "changes His character".

From a scriptural standpoint you have also missed the mark. It was explicitly the death of a man that brought righteousness to the world. This entire context is talking about sin coming into the world through one man and righteousness coming through one man.

Again, you make the mistake that so many who hold your position do - you project your own model of the concept of God onto me and demonstrate an error that results. But, as you surely must know, I do not embrace a concept of God that rules out divine embodiment. I am fully aware of Romans 5. Do you really think that I am so Biblically illiterate that I would be "surprised" by Paul's assertions that Jesus was "a man"?

Again, your points fail becuase you projects your commitment about the boundaries between the concepts of "god" and "man" onto me.

As per other posts, I appeal to the Biblical story, rather than to concepts which are properly seen as deriviative from that story. And the Bibical story has a promised return of YHWH to Zion and a "man" named Jesus embodying and incarnating that return.

You are partially correct, however I am not projecting my beliefs on you. I assumed you were of the Christian faith. I can see now that you do not believe in the general aspects of an immortal God or a God that cannot die. That effectively takes you out of the norm of Christianity. I am not much interested in debating with non-christians.

 

[Drew]

You are partially correct, however I am not projecting my beliefs on you. I assumed you were of the Christian faith. I can see now that you do not believe in the general aspects of an immortal God or a God that cannot die. That effectively takes you out of the norm of Christianity. I am not much interested in debating with non-christians.

Do you really want to play this card? I suggest it is not a wise one.

Anyone can claim that another poster is not a Christian. You, of course, have precisely zero evidence that my beliefs are in any sense not "Christian" ones. I suggest that the reality is that the weight of scriptural evidence in this thread supports the correctness of the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus.

Now to repeat my point since you deftly deflected it with the above: Your arguments only have any traction because you assume that everyone accepts your definition of how we determine whether or not it is proper to predicate divinity of Jesus. You are appealing to the "He can't be God since He is a man" argument. Well, I am appealing to the Old Testament and what it says about the specifically Jewish model of divinity, one that is perfectly happy to see "human figures" as divine (Ezekiel 1 and Daniel 7).

I am more than happy to let the Old Testament tell me about the nature of God, not the conceptual model that you appeal to, one that is entirely uninformed by the specificities of the Jewish model of God we see in the Old Testament.

 

[researcher]

God appointed a man to bring righteousness.

Jesus is a decendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the second Adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth untill all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)
Over 90 times Jesus is referred to as the “son of Manâ€. This does not depict deity, but humanity.

Thank you for posting this. I've never seen it laid out like this with scripture references in relevance to this ongoing debate among believers.

Forgot one!

Jesus will be our father. lol. ;) ;) ;)

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[Yahoshea]

Drew says "Do you really want to play this card? I suggest it is not a wise one."

reply -
OOOOOHHHHH...... I am so scared.

Among the other things you are mistaken about is your feelings that this forum is anything more then a computer game. Get over it....

 

[TheCatholic]

Ignatius of Antioch:
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Aristides:
"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


Tatian the Syrian:
"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis:
"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus:
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).


Clement of Alexandria:
"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).


Tertullian:
"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

"That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).


Origen:
"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).


Hippolytus:
"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).


Hippolytus of Rome:
"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).


Novatian:
"If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).


Cyprian of Carthage:
"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).


Gregory:
"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).


Arnobius:
"‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).


Lactantius:
"He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

"We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29).


Council of Nicaea I:
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made" (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

"But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).


Patrick of Ireland:
"Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works" (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

 

[Drew]

Drew says "Do you really want to play this card? I suggest it is not a wise one."

reply -
OOOOOHHHHH...... I am so scared.

Among the other things you are mistaken about is your feelings that this forum is anything more then a computer game. Get over it....

You are clearly using a range of avoidance tactics to avoid the strength of the arguments against your position. When presented with clear Biblical arguments as to why we should see Jesus as divine - arguments which you seemingly cannot counter - you take the often-travelled route of trying bend the issue in the personal direction.

I have seen this many, many times. A person who cannot make their case through Biblical and other relevant arguments will suddenly suggest that their opponent is "not a Christian", or is a minion of Satan, or whatever.

Let's remember the facts: I mounted a perfectly valid critique that you were assuming certain views about the nature of divinity and human-ness and then projecting those views onto me.

What was your response? Did you make an actual case that your views about those things were, in fact, correct?

No. You questioned the genuineness of my faith.

 

[Drew]

One of the lines of argument in this thread against the divinity of Jesus is the assertion that a divine Jesus is not a "good example for us to follow". Well, perhaps a fully human Jesus would fulfill that "role model" expectation better.

But that whole line of thinking is based on an incorrect understanding of why Jesus came and what He accomplished. He did not come to "set an example", He came to solve the Adamic sin problem and initiate a project of reclamation of the entire cosmos. Consider this from Isaiah:

11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
12"For you will go out with joy
And be led forth with peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
13"Instead of the thorn bush the (AK)cypress will come up,
And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up,
And it will be a memorial to the LORD,
For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off

This is a picture of new creation - of God reversing the Adamic fall with its taint on all the universe. God did not send Jesus simply to "set an example", but to be the agent by which this new creation project is initiated. And Paul understands this big picture as here in Romans 8, he looks forward to its ultimate consummation:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

 

[Yahoshea]

One of the lines of argument in this thread against the divinity of Jesus is the assertion that a divine Jesus is not a "good example for us to follow". Well, perhaps a fully human Jesus would fulfill that "role model" expectation better.

But that whole line of thinking is based on an incorrect understanding of why Jesus came and what He accomplished. He did not come to "set an example", He came to solve the Adamic sin problem and initiate a project of reclamation of the entire cosmos. Consider this from Isaiah:

11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
12"For you will go out with joy
And be led forth with peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
13"Instead of the thorn bush the (AK)cypress will come up,
And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up,
And it will be a memorial to the LORD,
For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off

This is a picture of new creation - of God reversing the Adamic fall with its taint on all the universe. God did not send Jesus simply to "set an example", but to be the agent by which this new creation project is initiated. And Paul understands this big picture as here in Romans 8, he looks forward to its ultimate consummation:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

It is true my stand takes into account that Jesus came in part to be an example for us. That is clear in scripture. As clear as your stand is. the fact that you do not accept that truth makes our discussion useless. That coupled with the unfathomable stand that an immortal God can die makes your argument silly. You deny two of the very truths that make Christianity, Christianity. If you do not want to be Christian and use the Bible for your own twist then Go ahead but you will never convince me that you are right. Your stand is untenable.

 

[Yahoshea]

Ignatius of Antioch:
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Aristides:
"[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


Tatian the Syrian:
"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).


Melito of Sardis:
"It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).


Irenaeus:
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).


Clement of Alexandria:
"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).


Tertullian:
"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

"That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).


Origen:
"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).


Hippolytus:
"Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).


Hippolytus of Rome:
"For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).


Novatian:
"If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).


Cyprian of Carthage:
"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).


Gregory:
"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).


Arnobius:
"‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).


Lactantius:
"He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

"We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29).


Council of Nicaea I:
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made" (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

"But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).


Patrick of Ireland:
"Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works" (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

I can get 1,000 people that lived when their Messiah lived to swear that He was their true Messiah and God. All I need do is canvas the people of NAZI Germany. It would be easy to find 1,000 people that would swear that Hitler was their divinity. Your argument has no legs. In fact getting testimony from those associated with the Catholic Church is very much like going to the NAZI party. Although I think the NAZI's killed and tortured less people.