Is Jesus considered to be God?

[JudaicChristian]

:crazy

You ignor the facts and make your own truth as you go, so Im ending this conversation. good bye.

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus even tells the Jews to judge according to righteous judgement.

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:23-24 KJV)

We CAN and DO judge.

 

[follower of Christ]

:crazy

You ignor the facts and make your own truth as you go, so Im ending this conversation. good bye.

See ya

 

[glorydaz]

This conversation reminds me of this portion of scripture. It seems like no matter how many times Jesus told people He was God, some couldn't grasp it. He's the manna from heaven, and yet some turn away rather than eat.

30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[seekandlisten]

I definitely don't think Jesus wasted his time.

Im certainly getting that impression Why would you put a smiley at the end of that statement? There is nothing to smile about if Jesus is wasting his time.

I am not trying to tell you anything at least that is not my intention.

I see.
Change of heart or just not making yourself clear enough ? Not a change of heart but having a realization of what simply debating a topic will accomplish. I don't hold the belief that whether or not you believe Jesus is God or Jesus is a man will determine your salvation. Its what you do with either belief.
[quote:rhcyt3n5] We can judge for ourselves in determining the Truth but we can't raise ourself up and start passing that judgement on to other people.

Actually we CAN 'judge', friend.
You seem to be missing the REST of the story....I don't think its me who is missing anything in regards to judging others.
Youre thinking something like....

"Judge not, lest you be judged.
(Matthew 7:1 EMTV)

Im sorry but that doesnt mean we cant judge.
The REST of the passage shows that the INTENT is that we judge fairly and righteously...unlike the Jews to whom Christ was speaking to.

"Judge not, lest you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with what measure you measure, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the plank in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, 'Permit me to remove the speck from your eye'; and look, there is a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
(Matthew 7:1-5 EMTV)

I think this passage fits right in with the point i'm making on judging others.
We ARE allowed to judge, we are simply to make sure WE arent doing the very thing that we are judging in someone else, and we are to judge with a righteous judgment.

Causing dissension is not good fruit.

That depends.
Do you believe that God just wants us to all 'get along'....even at the expense of truth ?
I doubt it.Do you think it's better that we continue to separate and cause division instead of getting over our petty differences and see the real picture? And work towards bringing glory to God's Kingdom rather than our own egos?
Jesus Himself said that He did not come to bring peace.I can clearly see that but is imposing what you belive on someone else have anything to do with the indwelling of the Spirit or one's salvation? It is all put forth in the bible, just because a religion decides on the 'truth' doesn't mean they are right. I think your missing the meaning of the passage from Jeremiah that I presented.

"Do not suppose that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to 'turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man's enemies will be his own household members.'
(Matthew 10:34-36 EMTV)

Our faith and our stand for HIS truth will cause dissension. It is inevitable...
The question becomes where do you want to stand?
.[/quote:rhcyt3n5]

 

[seekandlisten]

Jesus even tells the Jews to judge according to righteous judgement.

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:23-24 KJV)

We CAN and DO judge.

Again the scripture you quote goes with my point of us not having the ability to judge on what's in one's heart. Only God can do that. 'Judge not according to the appearance' is this not what is being done?

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus even tells the Jews to judge according to righteous judgement.

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:23-24 KJV)

We CAN and DO judge.

Again the scripture you quote goes with my point of us not having the ability to judge on what's in one's heart. Only God can do that. 'Judge not according to the appearance' is this not what is being done?

Sorry friend but WE dont have telepathy.
WE can only do what JESUS TELLS us to do....know men by their fruits.

Round 38 ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Why would you put a smiley at the end of that statement? There is nothing to smile about if Jesus is wasting his time.

Because you are giving me that impression ? ;)

Not a change of heart but having a realization of what simply debating a topic will accomplish. I don't hold the belief that whether or not you believe Jesus is God or Jesus is a man will determine your salvation. Its what you do with either belief.

Really ?
So youre saying we can just believe whatever we want and as long as we 'do' whatever with that belief we're good to go then ?
Great.
I believe Im Johnny Carson.
I wonder if that belief will do anything for me ?

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't think its me who is missing anything in regards to judging others.

Youre seemingly missing everything in scripture you dont seem to want to accept

I think this passage fits right in with the point i'm making on judging others.

Hardly.
We will BE judged AS we judge.
This is NOT saying we can never judge, which would be in direct contradiction to other passages TELLING us to judge.
We are to judge righteously....THAT is the point

Do you think it's better that we continue to separate and cause division instead of getting over our petty differences and see the real picture? And work towards bringing glory to God's Kingdom rather than our own egos?

Do you see that happening when we cant even agree on what some here might see as the 'petty' issue of whether Jesus is God or not ?
Will I align myself with those I view as being heretics?
By no means...

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Do I see denying that Jesus is God as heresy ?
Yes, frankly I do.

The question becomes where do you want to stand?

Definitely not in the line of those who reject the overwhelming proof that Jesus is God

 

[glorydaz]

There is one important thing we can judge (discern), and that is whether someone confesses that Jesus is God or if they deny it.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[seekandlisten]

Why would you put a smiley at the end of that statement? There is nothing to smile about if Jesus is wasting his time.

Because you are giving me that impression ? ;)I'm a waste of Jesus time?? Is this the fruit you are putting forth??

Not a change of heart but having a realization of what simply debating a topic will accomplish. I don't hold the belief that whether or not you believe Jesus is God or Jesus is a man will determine your salvation. Its what you do with either belief.

Really ?
So youre saying we can just believe whatever we want and as long as we 'do' whatever with that belief we're good to go then ? Well seeing as instead of using rational thought you are going to jump to the opposite end of the spectrum then yes. Answer these questions. Is what I believe going to affect you when you stand before God in judgement?? Is your judgement of others and the fact of whether you are building up God's Kingdom going to affect you before God in judgement?? If you turn people away from God based on your personal opinion to what the 'truth' is going to be brought up when you stand before God in judgement?? This is what I try to govern my actions on how about you?
Great.
I believe Im Johnny Carson.
I wonder if that belief will do anything for me ?

 

[follower of Christ]

I'm a waste of Jesus time?? Is this the fruit you are putting forth??

Maybe you need to learn to read what people have said and not insert things into their statements like you apparently do scripture ?

[quote:3ehec7k8]Really ?
So youre saying we can just believe whatever we want and as long as we 'do' whatever with that belief we're good to go then ?

Well seeing as instead of using rational thought you are going to jump to the opposite end of the spectrum then yes.[/quote:3ehec7k8]Interesting.

Is what I believe going to affect you when you stand before God in judgement??

No, because Im studied enough to know better than to buy what your selling.
Others who read here may not be, however, and so it becomes necessary to shred the heresy entirely for all to see so that they do not stumble into the same error.

Is your judgement of others and the fact of whether you are building up God's Kingdom going to affect you before God in judgement??

If I judge based on His word then it cannot affect me adversely.

If you turn people away from God based on your personal opinion to what the 'truth' is going to be brought up when you stand before God in judgement??

Thats a real nice try there, gent ;)
I dont have to worry about it because I know my view is the right one. Jesus Christ IS God and it is heresy to claim otherwise
If those who dont want truth use me to reject it moreso, that rejection has no bearing on me at all. Its on their own heads.

This is what I try to govern my actions on how about you?

Im interested in Gods truth.
If that truth offends it really isnt my problem.
If you take offense at Gods truth and decide to turn away that is on you alone

We done here ?

 

[mutzrein]

Your assertion has no basis in scripture.

You simply HAVE to be joking.....at least I hope.
So it is your assertion that God does not require BELIEF in His truth in order for Him to fellowship with man ?
Is that correct ?

Show me from scripture where one who, having been given the Spirit of God, has the Spirit taken away from them if they fail to believe that Jesus is God.

Thats a pretty interesting request.
I mean, gee, if there arent any actual examples IN the Bible, then I guess it cant be true.

The FACT is that God requires belief.
Do you claim that God is 'ok' with belief in a lie in order for a man to be saved ?

No of course I'm not joking - and I would expect if you were a follower of Christ that your manner of speech would not be belittling and sarcastic. It does not befit one who makes such a boast. In my book, there is much that speaks of the fruit of one who follows Christ and I'm afraid I don't see it displayed here.

I DO NOT claim that it is OK to believe a lie in order to be saved. I have never said that and never will.

I you cannot show me scripture that states that one must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved then your assertions that it is, are meaningless.

 

[seekandlisten]

Titus 3:9-10 (New International Version)

9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

This is exactly what is being done here in the discussion of whether Jesus is equal to God. Read the whole passage for a better understanding. The problem I have is if we can clearly see from this passage that such arguments are not benificial why are we having it?? My problem isn't in that you believe Jesus is God, it is in the fact that you accuse anyone who doesn't believe this of not having the Holy Spirit in them. There is no scriptural evidence of this. Jesus didn't teach that he was God. The plan of salvation is not built on the fact that Jesus is God.