Drew said:
Again, from 1 Corinthians 8:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
If Jesus is only human, and in no way divine, how, exactly, is a mere man the agency by which all things exist? That is one powerful man.
And this from Colossians 1:
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him
A mere man is the agency that created galaxies and mountains? Stars and lions? Planets and trees? I really am mystified at how someone would accept that Paul is writing inspired scripture here and yet believes that Jesus is "only a man". How can mere man create all things in the universe? Again, that is one powerful man.
And this, from Phillipians:
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Clearly Paul sees Jesus as divine but not willing to "exploit" that status by refusing to come to us a servant. The point of Paul's argument is pretty clear - Jesus shares God's status as divine, but did not use that status, as He might have done, to avoid the cross.
Let me deal with Phil 4 first ---
I have posted several times about Phil. The problem us that many Trinitarians and it appears you too have a wrong understanding of this portion of scripture based on a preconceived idea of doctrine. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existent Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “goodâ€. The literal meaning of “good†is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"
4The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –
Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction
God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.
Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form†with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearanceâ€.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own kingdom.
You say -----
again, from 1 Corinthians 8:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
If Jesus is only human, and in no way divine, how, exactly, is a mere man the agency by which all things exist? That is one powerful man.
Reply –
First of all this is a poor translation of the Greek.
The literal Greek is as follows.
“One Lord Jesus Christ through whom the all and we through himâ€
No where in the Greek is the word “exist†used. The phrase “whom the all†carries the meaning of “all things continue†and we have our being through him.
Without Christ fulfillment of the mandate of Messiah the creation has no purpose to continue. It is through Christ that it finds it’s meaning. He is the prototype of those that are to follow. THE EXAMPLE
You say ---
And this from Colossians 1:
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him
A mere man is the agency that created galaxies and mountains? Stars and lions? Planets and trees? I really am mystified at how someone would accept that Paul is writing inspired scripture here and yet believes that Jesus is "only a man". How can mere man create all things in the universe? Again, that is one powerful man.
Reply ---
Paul did not write in English. Did you check the Greek? Did you consider Hebrew culture and concepts of create.
Again it dos not follow the Greek. The literal Greek says “in him it was created.
The word created does not carry the same meaning for the Hebrew writers of scripture as it does for us. There is no concept in the Hebrew language or culture for “creating†something from nothing. The word “bara†means to fatten as in to fatten cattle or bring to completion the process.
As in Corinthians this verse is stating that all of creation is given it’s purpose through Christ. Without him it has no meaning and would not have been brought to completion of fulfillment.
Christ fattened the universe. He brought it to completion of it’s purpose.
Is the extent of your scholarship reading an English translation and taking that as the literal inspired word of God. Inspiration of scripture exists only in the original languages and within their culture.
