Is Jesus really God?

[wavy]

Yes, Jesus does unequivocally declare that he is the Alpha and Omega (indentifying himself with God the Father, who is the initial Alpha and Omega). However, that still doesn't change the fact, imo, that the one specifically seated on the throne is the Father, as he is distinguished from the Lamb (like I illustrated).

Kind regards,
Eric.

 

[Solo]

Yes, Jesus does unequivocally declare that he is the Alpha and Omega (indentifying himself with God the Father, who is the initial Alpha and Omega). However, that still doesn't change the fact, imo, that the one specifically seated on the throne is the Father, as he is distinguished from the Lamb (like I illustrated).

Kind regards,
Eric.

Eric,
Why is the Lord God Almighty being worshiped by the 4 beasts and 24 elders in Revelation 4:8-11, referred to as he which is, which was, and which is to come?

And is the worship of the Lord God Almighty by the 24 elders praising the one on the throne as having created all things for His own pleasure, giving creedence to the fact that Jesus Christ is declared as having created all things for His pleasure in Colossians 1:14-17?

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Michael

 

[wavy]

Eric,
Why is the Lord God Almighty being worshiped by the 4 beasts and 24 elders in Revelation 4:8-11, referred to as he which is, which was, and which is to come?

You answer this below.

And is the worship of the Lord God Almighty by the 24 elders praising the one on the throne as having created all things for His own pleasure, giving creedence to the fact that Jesus Christ is declared as having created all things for His pleasure in Colossians 1:14-17?

While those are not the exact words of Colossians, quintessentially Jesus is ascribed the creation of all things because he is fully, divinely identified with God the Father. Divinity begets divinity (Jesus is God's Son and heir).

Picture God as fire and Jesus encased in human flesh as a flame which is distinct from the Father (the Father sent this "flame" into the world as the person of Jesus Christ -- John 8:42). Hypostatically, the flame is of the same substance as the fire. Fire is fire. In such a manner was Jesus (as the Word) existent with God in the beginning. Therefore creation is ascribed to him.

Still, Revelation makes it clear that the one on the throne is the Father. And still, Jesus and God throughout Revelation receive worship in a conjunctional relationship, which gives credence to the notion that Jesus is fully divine (God).

Kind regards,
Eric.

 

[Solo]

While those are not the exact words of Colossians, quintessentially Jesus is ascribed the creation of all things because he is fully, divinely identified with God the Father. Divinity begets divinity (Jesus is God's Son and heir).

Picture God as fire and Jesus encased in human flesh as a flame which is distinct from the Father (the Father sent this "flame" into the world as the person of Jesus Christ -- John 8:42). Hypostatically, the flame is of the same substance as the fire. Fire is fire. In such a manner was Jesus (as the Word) existent with God in the beginning. Therefore creation is ascribed to him.

Still, Revelation makes it clear that the one on the throne is the Father. And still, Jesus and God throughout Revelation receive worship in a conjunctional relationship, which gives credence to the notion that Jesus is fully divine (God).

Kind regards,
Eric.

I think that you will fine with more study that the one on the throne is Jehovah God, not the Father. The Father is just one person of the one Jehovah. The Son is just one person of the one Jehovah. The Spirit is just one person of the one Jehovah.

Isaiah prophesied of one who crieth in the wilderness to prepare the way for Jehovah and to make straight the path for God. The gospels declare that Jesus Christ was the one whom John the Baptist was preparing the way for, making straight His path as a fulfillment to this prophesy.

How difficult is it for JEHOVAH God to be the Father, the Son, and the Spirit? For the finite human minds, it is difficult; but for God it is His nature.

 

[WyldCyde]

whats with all the 'JEHOVAH'... are you a JW? or use some special bible translation?
on seconds thoughts JW's dont believe jesus is god so im guessing its based on your bible translation or a doctrine.
jehovah isnt used once in NIV new testament so implying that john the baptist used that term only weakens the argument.

Depending on ones beliefs its equally difficult to believe trinity or oneness or unitarian views of jesus... so its not like one is just so much more plausable and obvious to everyone who studies the bible.

If jews who had studied the torah their whole lives couldnt recognize jesus and constantly misunderstood what he meant... then its actually quite plausable many truths can be right in front of us but we are blind to them.

As to that revelation passage, different translations have various wordings, some of which lean more towards the clear distinction between jesus and God, whereas others blurr the lines.

Lets all forget the NT was written in greek and use the 1611 KJV as our only source... once we're agreed on the source debates should progress much more effectively ;)

wyld

 

[unred typo]

Lets all forget the NT was written in greek and use the 1611 KJV as our only source... once we're agreed on the source debates should progress much more effectively :wink:

Why yes, yes it should… :-D Most don’t care about finding out what the Lord actually said, only what is the standard for norm in their particular choice of church.

Don't want to appear unkewl in a court of thy peers, after all. 8-)

 

[Fnerb]

How difficult is it for JEHOVAH God to be the Father, the Son, and the Spirit? For the finite human minds, it is difficult; but for God it is His nature.

I think that is what I agree with most. I like this story from St. Augustine....

----
The scene is the seashore, where there is a small pool, a little boy with a seashell, and a sandy beach on which St. Augustine, clad in his episcopal robes, is walking, pondering with difficulty the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. “Father, Son, Holy Spirit; three in one!†he muttered, shaking his head.

As he approached the little boy who was running back and forth between the sea and the pool with a seashell of water, Augustine craned his neck and asked him: “Son, what are you doing?â€Â

“Can’t you see?†said the boy. “I’m emptying the sea into this pool!â€Â

“Son, you can’t do that!†Augustine countered. “I will sooner empty the sea into this pool than you will manage to get the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity into your head!â€Â

Upon saying that, the boy, who was an angel according to legend, quickly disappeared, leaving Augustine alone with the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity.
----

There are some things about God that I honestly believe is beyond our ability to understand...

 

[AVBunyan]

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus accepted worship – Mat 4:10; Mat 8:2; Mat 9:18; Mat 14:33; Mat 15:25; Mat 18:26 and many more.

Why did Jesus accept worship? He was God manifest in the flesh

God bless

 

[Solo]

whats with all the 'JEHOVAH'... are you a JW? or use some special bible translation?
on seconds thoughts JW's dont believe jesus is god so im guessing its based on your bible translation or a doctrine.
jehovah isnt used once in NIV new testament so implying that john the baptist used that term only weakens the argument.

Depending on ones beliefs its equally difficult to believe trinity or oneness or unitarian views of jesus... so its not like one is just so much more plausable and obvious to everyone who studies the bible.

If jews who had studied the torah their whole lives couldnt recognize jesus and constantly misunderstood what he meant... then its actually quite plausable many truths can be right in front of us but we are blind to them.

As to that revelation passage, different translations have various wordings, some of which lean more towards the clear distinction between jesus and God, whereas others blurr the lines.

Lets all forget the NT was written in greek and use the 1611 KJV as our only source... once we're agreed on the source debates should progress much more effectively ;)

wyld

In the King James Version AV1611 the Hebrew Word יהוה is translated LORD 6510 times, GOD 4 times, JEHOVAH 4 times, and a variant 1 time in the Old Testament. JEHOVAH (יהוה) is the proper name of the one true God.

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Exodus 6:3

The New Testament was written in Greek not Hebrew, therefore you will not find the proper name of God as JEHOVAH in the New Testament. The Greek Septuagint has translated the 39 books of the Old Testament into Greek, and JEHOVAH translated into the Greek is κυριου which is translated Lord 667 times, lord 54 times, master 11 times, sir 6 times, Sir 6 times, and miscellaneous 4 times in the King James Version AV1611.

 

[Imagican]

Folks – what is so hard about this? Who taught you that Jesus is not God? You didn’t get this from a King James Bible – maybe the modern versions.

Av,

Long time no see.

I will answer your first question like this; I DID NOT gain my understanding of the identy of Christ from 'other men' and this IS A TRUE STATEMENT. As a matter of fact, throughout my life I had MANY men attempt to offer me 'their understanding' of The Word. It meant little if NOTHING at these times. It wasn't until God chose to reveal Himself to me that I was able to grasp what so many others seem to be 'attempting to'. So, if you would like someone to 'blame' for my understanding, you will HAVE to take this up with God Himself, (or His Son).

Two references -
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Jews knew exactly what he meant for Jesus took them back to…
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The God of the universe was in that burning bush and Jesus said he was that “I am†that was in the bush.
And because of that statement by Jesus they were ready to beat his brains out.



They were ready to stone Him because He stated that He was 'The SON of God', NOT because He stated that he WAS God. Christ NEVER stated that He WAS the 'I Am' that spoke to Moses. That is simply NOT true. That is mere speculation from a 'Jesus IS God' perspective. What He stated is what you offered above in quote, 'Before Abraham was, I am'. You may 'choose' to believe what you have offered as conjecture, but PLEASE don't place yourself in a position to state 'as FACT' what is NOTHING more than opinion.



Moses was called to lead Israel into the land and so was Jesus.

HUH?

You who only believe he was just the son of God are in darkness spiritually.
The greatest writers, evangelists, preachers, and missionaries of the past who were used of God all believed the deity of Christ and then some of you are saying you are more enlightened than these people?

I am saying that MANY of them were 'led by men' rather than God, YES. For MANY in the last days will step to Christ and offer, "Look at all the wonderous things that we've done in your name''. And what is His answer to them? 'Go away from me, for I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU'.

Now you tell me AV, who are these that have done SO MUCH in the name of Christ yet HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THEM?

And the church that created the Bible with which you are SO fond of? Who wrote it AV? And were these people that torchered and murdered ALL who would not accept their teachings, were these the 'enlightened people' to which you refer. These people FILLED with hate and envy, were these the enlightened ones? These that MURDERED the Saints in the name of their created 'trinity', I guess these were the 'enlightened ones'?

AV,

I believe that Jesus IS exactly who He stated that He WAS/IS. I have altered NOTHING in my beliefs of what scripture offers. It is those that have 'created their OWN' definitions and beliefs' that have altered what scripture states in order to justify their 'creation'.

And Av, 'what' does your statement mean, 'those that believe that Jesus is ONLY the Son of God'. I am confused here. Where does Christ state that He is MORE than the Son of God? I have read the KJV of the Bible OVER AND OVER again, (The ONLY one that I DO read in FACT).Studied quite extensively. I have YET to find Christ offering ANYTHING other than 'the truth'. He PLAINLY stated that the words that He brought to us WERE NOT HIS OWN, but given Him BY THE FATHER, (God). Now, if this is NOT a PLAIN statement that Jesus Christ is NOT God Himself then I can offer NOTHING to alter your understanding. That is of your OWN choosing and so long as you 'choose' such, there will be MUCH evidence offered by God HIMSELF that will allow you to continue in your beliefs.

But, one more statement concerning this 'Jesus is God' concept; You did NOT learn this 'on your own' for this is NOT stated in the Word. The ONLY way that you would even 'think' such a thing is through the continual perpectuation of the 'Greek mythology' interjected into Christianity by the CC. For it was 'they' who created this 'trinity' concept and 'they' who spread it throughout the world. Torturing and murdering ALL who opposed their teachings. No wonder this 'trinity' is SUCH a prevalently accepted 'idea'. Self preservation is CERTAINLY an incentive to acceptance of ANYTHING, for the masses.

AV, I am forced to 'run off' about a DOZEN Jehovah's Witnesses a year in my community. They come TO MY DOOR offering to witness of Jesus Christ. These DO NOT accept 'your trinity' any more than I. I have YET to have a Baptist or a Methodist, or a Pentacostal, (these that accept your precious 'trinity'), aproach me offering witness or testamony except in their 'churches'. So PLEASE don't allude to 'my darkness' any more than you would to 'your own or that of others'. I DO NOT judge YOU, but the 'words that you offer'. for they are NOT words of love, but of the spirit of this WORLD, (believe as "I" do, or go to hell).


Show me anybody who believes or has believed like you do that has done anything for God like the men mentioned above? And you have insight to this great mystery that Jesus was not God and these men didn’t see it?

MANY of these men followed the teaching of 'other men' rather than God. So, to answer your question; YES. MANY of these to which you refer were following that which they CHOSE to believe rather than THE TRUTH. And MANY STILL ARE.

It was God’s blood shed at Calvary – Acts 20:28; Isa. 45:21. And if Jesus was not God then we all are on our way to a lake of fire!

I accept that 'you believe this'. I simply don't accept WHAT you believe as 'THE TRUTH'. It's NOT a 'personal thing' but my relationship with God through His Son has NOT revealed to me that Jesus IS God. To the contrary in fact. Jesus Christ IS EXACTLY WHO He stated that He IS. And NO amount of 'man-made' theology can change it except in the hearts of those that accept it.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

In your statement above concerning Revelation, you have simply accepted 'red letters' as 'FACT' when in FACT these red letters are NOTHING other than some 'man's' interpretation of WHO is speaking. There are numerous verses that have been 'strung together' in order to 'create' this illusion that it is ONLY Christ that is speaking when in FACT Christ Himself offers such distinction in His LAST STATEMENT.

MEC

 

[stranger]

To Solo you wrote:
In your statement above concerning Revelation, . . .
MEC

Imagician (and deep_thinking),

For some time I have intended to respond to some of your arguments -hopefully this is still relevant to this thread. I take up what is 'revealed' about God and what is interpretation concerning the Son of God. Hence the change in context between the book of revelation and scripture as revelation.

Scripture as revelation speaks of God in its own terms call it 'revealed language' if you will. The writings of the church seize upon these statements and develope, over time, various theological understandings and interpretations. Technically speaking if we say:

'the Son of God'
and 'God the Son'

you have two similar but not identical statements in inverted commas by way of example.

We can say that the second statement does not occur in scripture - the first statement may have been better expressed as: This is 'My beloved Son' or Thou art the Christ the 'Son of the Living God'. So no word search will come up with the exact phrase 'God the Son' in scripture. In the church writings this is common.

The two statements cannot be said to be identical - and this innocent transposition, is precisely the difference between a 'revealed fact' and a 're- interpretation of a revealed fact'. Notice that the second sentence is missing the word 'of' and this is a relational term.

Imagician, you have 'gotten' mileage out of this transposition in reference to the Son of God in your extensive arguments. You seem to be aware of this and in this 'strict mode' I agree with you (that it is not the same as saying God the Son). Hopefully others will not misconstrue what is being said here.

So even slight and seemingly harmless transpositions in a simple sentence give different 'opportunities in meaning' as far as interpretation goes. The OP in this tread follows similar transpositional objectives.

blessings: stranger

 

[stranger]

Deep_thinking wrote:

Can anyone find a verse from the Bible were Jesus(peace be upon him) has said "I am God" or where he says, "worship me"?

No, but His peace be upon us.

blessings: stranger

 

[golfjack]

reply

My Oh My. Still on this topic. I am beginning to think that people who don't believe Jesus is God aren't saved. Better yet, they aren't saved and need to be.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

If Jesus Christ is not God in the flesh, like 1 Tim 3:16 says He is,
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

then don't these two verses contradict one another?


Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Phl 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Gee, guys. The phrase "God manifested in the flesh" just seems to scream that Jesus Christ is God.

And this one, referring to a child that is born and a son that is given as the mighty God and the Everlasting Father.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If the fact that this verse says that the son shall be called the Everlasting father and the mighty God does not do it for you, I don't know what will. The only other thing that I could do is to ask you to spend some time in prayer for those of us who believe in the Trinity. Tell God what we believe and why we believe it. Tell God that you are concerned for our spiritual welfare. Ask Him to show you how to reach us with the truth.
Sarcastic again Gabby? Maybe a little. However, I believe that this issue is either one or the other. Both sides can not be right. Everyone discussing the issue seems to want to know the truth. No one seems to be discussing the issue just to win an argument or put down someone elses doctrine. If folks on both sides of the issue were to humble themselves, and pray, and seek His face, praying for one another rather than debating against one another, we just might come into unity. I believe that God wants us to know that truth. Ya think?

 

[stranger]

Gabby,

The OP frames a question in such a way that only explicit quotes from the bible with the exact words where Jesus says 'worship me' or 'I am God' are acceptable as answers. This style of question is: is it written?

He does not appear to be concerned about such proofs as eg Matt 18:16 Peter's confession 'Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God' nor the context of the high priests question: Matt26:63: I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God'. . .nor the verses you have quoted.

blessings: stranger

 

[scorpia]

Deep_thinking wrote:

Can anyone find a verse from the Bible were Jesus(peace be upon him) has said "I am God" or where he says, "worship me"?

No, but His peace be upon us.

blessings: stranger

Call on and come to Jesus himself and He will tell you who He is, but continue searching the bible and you will find no clear answer.

 

[DM]

Gabby said in (her?) recent post: "I believe that this issue (i.e. the Trinity / deity of Jesus) is either one or the other. Both sides can not be right."

Gabby, isn't this true of any issue? Can't the same statement be made with respect to Dispensationalism and Preterism? Or with Calvinism vs. Arminianism? And yet, when it comes to "this issue" (i.e. the Trinity / deity of Jesus) - it's somehow taken to a whole other level. Emotions run highest when discussing whether or not Jesus is God.

Having said that, I agree with Gabby that "both sides can not be right".

Gabby is very fluent in defending a trinitarian viewpoint with the stock Scriptures upon which trinitarianism is built. Gabby's appeal to 1 Timothy 3:16 as being somehow bulletproof for the deity of Jesus, however, stands entirely on assuming that the King James bible is the only legitimate translation of Scripture into the English language. This would then nullify the NASB, NIV and even the very trinitarian (and very biased) NLT. That would mean that any Christian reading any other version than the KJV is reading an inaccurate translation of Scripture. I don't know if Gabby is a KJV only advocate or not, but I would call into question anyone claiming that the KJV is somehow beyond scrutiny as to whether or not it renders this verse (or several other verses) with absolute perfection.

This thread has hardly begun to scratch the surface to the questions which it has raised. Deep Thinking's appeal to this audience to point out Scriptures which explicitly say "Jesus is God", or where Jesus says in Scripture "worship me" - is clearly a fruitless endeavor. All of us already know that there is no such construct of words in those sequences to be found in the bible. Of course, that doesn't settle the issue in and of itself.

Gabby also said, "Everyone discussing the issue seems to want to know the truth." Well said. And that is why we must continue discussing this issue. Some who have posted in this thread seem to be Arian in their perspective of Jesus. Others, like scorpia, would seem to reject the bible as being very effective, in favor of a more gnostic form of intuition. There's so much more to be said . . .

But for now, I need to tuck my children in.

In Christian love,
David

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

(her?)

yep.

Gabby, isn't this true of any issue?

Nope. I have seen far too many arguments over six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I don't know if Gabby is a KJV only advocate or not, but I would call into question anyone claiming that the KJV is somehow beyond scrutiny as to whether or not it renders this verse (or several other verses) with absolute perfection.

I hold my belief on the Trinity doctrines based not just on Scripture alone, but I have practiced what I preached. I discussed it with the Lord. And I will continue to pray that all of God's people come to perfect understanding in all doctrines, and knowledge of the truth.

 

[Imagican]

Gabby,

The OP frames a question in such a way that only explicit quotes from the bible with the exact words where Jesus says 'worship me' or 'I am God' are acceptable as answers. This style of question is: is it written?

He does not appear to be concerned about such proofs as eg Matt 18:16 Peter's confession 'Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God' nor the context of the high priests question: Matt26:63: I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God'. . .nor the verses you have quoted.

blessings: stranger

stranger,

I find it amusing that you could offer such a statement above and then FAIL to see what you YOURSELF have offered.

I accept EACH of these pieces of scripture AS OFFERED. What I DON'T accept is one 'attempting' to 'change them' through 'their' interpretation.

Let me explain;

EACH of these statements that you have offered above are EXACTLY MY POINT. Jesus IS The Son of God. Yet 'you' and 'others' insist that such statements 'somehow' state that Jesus IS God. I am REALLY confused here. Jesus says, "I AM The Son of God'', and SOMEHOW 'trinitarians' use this, (ONLY in their OWN minds and hearts), to come up with ''Jesus IS God''.

God revealed to us that Jesus Christ IS His Son. Christ revealed to us that God IS His Father. This is NOT rocket science folks. The exact relationship of God and Christ has NEVER been revealed to us other than as Father and Son. When this relationship began or was created has NEVER been revealed to us. So, I guess since some INSIST that they MUST have a COMPLETE definition in order to be satisfied, they simply 'fill in the blanks' with 'their OWN understanding', (even if it does NOT agree with scripture).

Let me ask this in the hopes of sheading a bit of light on this subject.

What would my religion be if I were to 'pick' an angel and teach others that this angel, being a 'part of God' was indeed, GOD HIMSELF? I am quite sure that you would quickly offer that this would be a 'false religion', or at least one devoid of The Truth.

Now, at WHAT POINT in Christianity did Jesus Christ become accepted, (or created), AS God? Answer me this and you will answer what this thread is ALL ABOUT. The WHO, and WHEN is TOTALLY relevant to 'the truth'. For, when we do but a cursory study of the History of Christianity, we QUICKLY find that this 'trinity' or 'Jesus IS God' was created NO LESS than hundreds of years AFTER HIS DEATH. Now, if this concept was SO important to 'TRUE CHRISTIANITY, (being born again), WHY did Christ NOT reveal this to His apostles in a way that they could DIRECTLY state to us that Jesus Christ IS God? WHY did it take hundreds of years and a people that DIDN'T even KNOW Christ to 'come up' with such an important piece of information concerning the relationship with God and His Son?

Now that this is stated. Another piece of evidence concerning the validity of this 'trinity'. Would those that followed such a MAJOR revelation TRULY have been able to go out and torture and murder God's children IN THE NAME OF THIS "TRINITY"? Could these have been TRULY following the will of God? I mean, golly guys and gals, we have the EXACT example of WHAT God wants of us IN JESUS CHRIST. He wants children that not only love Him, but love PERIOD, ESPECIALLY EACH OTHER. Now, could someone TRULY be 'led by The Spirit' and go out and murder their brothers and sisters in the name of God OR Christ simply because one may NOT accept 'their teachings'?

I have offered MUCH evidence that what I have offered is FACT. Not so much in this thread, but through out those that deal with this matter. That many refute it is of NO consequence to The Truth.

What has been revealed, (through The Word), has CERTAINLY been altered in our 'modern churches'. What the original Church taught was NOT what MOST have now learned to accept and follow. The Catholic faith and almost the entirety of the Protestant have opted instead of Truth, to follow the the 'truth of men'. Thus, one of the most important changes that the CC offered is that of 'trinity' of which the word itself DOES NOT EVEN EXIST IN THE WORD. Even though these produced the modern Bible with which we learn of God's Word, EVEN THEY did not have the audacity to 'alter' it enough to clearly even INDICATE this 'ALL IMPORTANT DOCTRINE' of 'trintiy'.
They simply offer that 'THEY' know better than ANYONE ELSE what God wants us to 'know'. Pretty tricky stuff really, and used in almost EVERY 'man-made' religion that exists or has existed since the dawning of man. This 'I' know God and 'you MUST LISTEN TO ME' or 'God will punish you'. Neat stuff huh?

MEC