Is Jesus really God ?

[savedbygrace57]

They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced !



You see, what the adversaries of God like to bring up are those verses which point to Christ in His subordinate Mediator Nature, but they totally disregarded those verses that describe Him in His Divine Nature as God.. This will be their down fall in the day of Judgment.

But, any way, God points out clearly that He is also the Man Christ who was crucified in this scripture zech 12:

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Jehovah id the Father, and the Son.. One Jehovah, but two different entities..

Certainly the Father could not have said and i quote " They shall look upon me whom they have pierced" for is this not a reference to Christ ?

Jn 19:37

And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.




Here we Have it, Jehovah Being the Me and the Him

 

[Asyncritus]

Last night at Bible Class someone pointed out Isa.42.1

"Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth... I have put my spirit upon him"

The question asked was:

How can the first person of the trinity put the third person of the trinity upon the second person of the trinity, who is being called 'My Servant'?

Matthew 12: 17 -21 confirms that Jesus is 'the Servant', because he quotes Isa 42.1 and applies it very firmly to Christ. Therefore the Father is the Servant's master, and the spirit in the master's power being given to the Servant (Jesus).

Any ideas please?

 

[Asyncritus]

They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced !



You see, what the adversaries of God like to bring up are those verses which point to Christ in His subordinate Mediator Nature, but they totally disregarded those verses that describe Him in His Divine Nature as God.. This will be their down fall in the day of Judgment.

But, any way, God points out clearly that He is also the Man Christ who was crucified in this scripture zech 12:

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Jehovah id the Father, and the Son.. One Jehovah, but two different entities..

Certainly the Father could not have said and i quote " They shall look upon me whom they have pierced" for is this not a reference to Christ ?

Jn 19:37

And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Here we Have it, Jehovah Being the Me and the Him

This is a passage which has perplexed me for a while.

Since Jesus is the one being pierced, then as you rightly say The Father, Jehovah, cannot be the ME whom they pierced.

The only way I have been able to make sense of the words, is to say that when they pierced Christ, it was as if they were piercing God Himself, so keenly did He feel His Son's agony.

This is not so far fetched as it may seem - because God CAN be hurt by us. Paul says GRIEVE NOT the Holy Spirit of God, alluding to Isa.63.10 : "they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit"

'Grieve' is what one does when someone dies, because of the pain of the loss.

I think that is what Zechariah is trying to say.

 

[Asyncritus]

Last night at Bible Class someone raised Isa 42.1

"Behold my Servant whom I uphold.... I have put my spirit upon Him"

The question asked was 'how can the first person of the trinity put the third person of the trinity on the second person of the trinity who is called 'My Servant'?

That the passage refers to Jesus is shown by Matthew 12: 18 - 21, where he applies Isa 42 very firmly to Christ.

Options please?

 

[Asyncritus]

There is another quite perplexing fact.

Jesus is identified as our High Priest: Heb.8.1 "We have such an High Priest..."

The HPr of Israel was the go-between, between Israel and God.

Jesus, our HPr, is the go-between for His disciples and God.

The question is: Which HPr was ever equal to the God he served? He was the servant of God (as in the previous post).

Hebrews further compounds my problem when it says, quoting the Psalm 22.22

"I will declare thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I sing prise unto thee".

This hasn't happened yet, and will not happen till Jesus returns from heaven to lead the worship of the saints as their HPr in Jerusalem.

So as HPr, can he be equal to His God?

Options?

 

[Drew]

Last night at Bible Class someone raised Isa 42.1

"Behold my Servant whom I uphold.... I have put my spirit upon Him"

The question asked was 'how can the first person of the trinity put the third person of the trinity on the second person of the trinity who is called 'My Servant'?

That the passage refers to Jesus is shown by Matthew 12: 18 - 21, where he applies Isa 42 very firmly to Christ.

Options please?

I do not really see a problem here. Remember, the Bible is not a "technical" manual, intended to be taken literally at every point. The statement in question seems to me to be a poetic way of saying that there is an intimate relationship between the three persons of the Trinity.

Besides, it is important to realize that the "servant" is not simply applied to Jesus without further qualifcation. In the Old Testament, and even in this particular text as I will show shortly, the "servant" of the Lord was the nation of Israel.

So, yes, the text gets applied to Jesus by Matthew. But to be faithful to the entire Biblical narrative, we have to understand this in terms of Jesus being the bearer of Israel's destiny. In short, the gospel writer, if he knows anything at all about the Old Testament, would know that the servant of Isaiah 42 is Israel. So Matthew, like Paul, clearly places Jesus in the position of taking Israel's role.

This may also be relevant to the question you have - if the statement is to be first and foremost a statement about Israel, then the problem goes away, even though the statement is later applied to Jesus.

Now here is the text in context. Note the clear reference to Israel at the end:

Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.â€
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

Understanding that Jesus is the bearer of Israel's destiny, that He is the true Israelite, as it were, is a powerful truth that can make sense of a lot of things in the Bible that would otherwise be very puzzling.

 

[Sinthesis]

There is another quite perplexing fact.

Jesus is identified as our High Priest: Heb.8.1 "We have such an High Priest..."

The HPr of Israel was the go-between, between Israel and God.

Jesus, our HPr, is the go-between for His disciples and God.

The question is: Which HPr was ever equal to the God he served? He was the servant of God (as in the previous post).

Hebrews further compounds my problem when it says, quoting the Psalm 22.22

"I will declare thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I sing prise unto thee".

This hasn't happened yet, and will not happen till Jesus returns from heaven to lead the worship of the saints as their HPr in Jerusalem.

So as HPr, can he be equal to His God?

Options?

Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jhn 13:16 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Luk 6:40 - The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.​

So the question is; do you believe Jesus is perfect?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Of course -

Read Hebrews 1, and Colossians 1. makes it pretty clear that which was incarnated as "Jesus" was the very creator himself.

 

[zionwarrior]

It seems my most recent thread was deleted. This tells me that the thread was indeed hitting a bit close to home for someone.

 

[Free]

It seems my most recent thread was deleted. This tells me that the thread was indeed hitting a bit close to home for someone.

No. It was deleted because you were attacking another member. Stick to addressing arguments and do not attack the person.

 

[Asyncritus]

I do not really see a problem here. Remember, the Bible is not a "technical" manual, intended to be taken literally at every point. The statement in question seems to me to be a poetic way of saying that there is an intimate relationship between the three persons of the Trinity.

Besides, it is important to realize that the "servant" is not simply applied to Jesus without further qualifcation. In the Old Testament, and even in this particular text as I will show shortly, the "servant" of the Lord was the nation of Israel.

So, yes, the text gets applied to Jesus by Matthew. But to be faithful to the entire Biblical narrative, we have to understand this in terms of Jesus being the bearer of Israel's destiny. In short, the gospel writer, if he knows anything at all about the Old Testament, would know that the servant of Isaiah 42 is Israel. So Matthew, like Paul, clearly places Jesus in the position of taking Israel's role.

This may also be relevant to the question you have - if the statement is to be first and foremost a statement about Israel, then the problem goes away, even though the statement is later applied to Jesus.

Now here is the text in context. Note the clear reference to Israel at the end:

Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.â€
5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

Understanding that Jesus is the bearer of Israel's destiny, that He is the true Israelite, as it were, is a powerful truth that can make sense of a lot of things in the Bible that would otherwise be very puzzling.

Drew

I really am not confident that you are entirely right here. The Jews may well have seized their opportunities to deny the application of major prophecies to Christ, because they simply would not accept that He is their Messiah.

Their only alternative is to apply it to the prophet himself or to the nation.

The classic example of that is Isa 53, which the Ethiopian eunuch was wondering who it applied to: to Jesus or to some other man (like the prophet himself).

But we have the clear NT guidance on how to interpret this passage (and I confess that I had forgotten that Matthew had done this).

He applies it, as I said, very firmly to Christ:

"he charged them that they should not make him known...

that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet

[...]

He shall not strive, nor cry aloud,
Neither shall anyone hear his voice in the streets

[...]
And in His name shall the Gentiles trust."

That cannot possibly be Israel. "...in His name" is far too much like: "...in the name of Jesus...' in the Acts and elsewhere.

So if it isn't Israel, then who else can it be but Jesus?

This bit you quoted:

I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

is also alluded to in the NT, by Paul in Acts 13, where he describes his commission of preaching Christ to the Gentiles:

"I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles"

If the above is correct, then I am again seized with the conundrum, that in Isa 42 we have the first person of the trinity placing the third person of the trinity on the second person of the trinity who is clearly described as 'My Servant'.

In fact, now I think about it, Isa 53. 11 does pretty much the same thing:

"...by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many"

and we all know - or should at any rate - that ch 53 is one of the greatest prophecies of the Lord's suffering anywhere in the scriptures of truth.

 

[Asyncritus]

Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jhn 13:16 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Luk 6:40 - The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
​

So the question is; do you believe Jesus is perfect?

Sinthesis

You have put your finger very firmly on the question I raised above, because the passages you quote just underline the difficulties.



Philip.2 says: 'he took on him the form of A SERVANT' .... and became OBEDIENT unto death'

That is very strong 'servant language' if I may so call it.



Jhn 13:16 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

He has just washed the disciples' feet. (Just BTW, did you realise that the disciples all had their shoes ON, which He had to remove, wash the feet, and replace? No? Then have a look at Ex 12, and you'll see it there).

So he says: You're not greater than me, so you should wash one another's feet as I have done.

But then, he acknowledges His own status as God's servant:

13 v 20 : '...he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me'. That is remarkable, isn't it?



Luk 6:40 - The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Importantly, the 'master' here is a teacher. I am your teacher, He says.


And then, I am reminded of what He said in John 8.28: "...but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things"


And Isaiah says of the Lord:

"...he wakeneth mine ear to hear as they that are taught" (RV)

simply confirming the fact that God taught Him.

Is He perfect? Yes:

Lk 13.32: "...the third day I am perfected"


Heb 2.10 "..it became Him (ie God) ... to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings".

 

[savedbygrace57]

Just a reminder that this thread is not about the Trinity per se, but about whether or not Jesus is God.

Where is active thread on the Trinity ? If we do not have one, I will start one or just add remarks of it on this thread..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ is God because He is the Creator of all things !



Col 1:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Creation is biblically a prerogative of Jehovah as per Isa 44:


24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

The avoidance, that it was by Christ merely as an instrument, is besides being a absurd speculation, absolutely forbidden by God Himself, observe His speaking :

I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Some will object that paul uses the prep en in the col verse, which means nothing substantial, because John uses the prep dia in Jn 1:

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

When speaking on the same subject.. The word made in Jn 1 3 is the greek word ginomai which means:

to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

Hence, all things by Him come into existence, receive being..Hence, He must Be God, for scripture says:

Prov 16:

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We saw Paul's inspired testimony of the Deity of Christ, that He is the Creator of all things as God, now we will look at the inspired testimony of John, speaking of the Word which was God Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now vs 10

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Now the Eternal power and Godhead of the Father are clearly are clearly understood by the things that are made as per rom 1:

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Then does not these same works, which are repeatedly and in the most express terms "The world was made by Him" manifest His Eternal Power and Godhead ?
​

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ is God because He is the Judge of all !

2 cor 5:


10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The all here are the quick and the dead 2 tim 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

He that is worthy to preside over the Tribunal of the Final Judgment, to distribute rewards, and to mete out final destiny for eternity, must be God..​

 

[Asyncritus]

John 5.22

"For the Father hath committed all judgement to the Son"

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 5.22

"For the Father hath committed all judgement to the Son"

My point exactly, and the Judge is God..ecc 3:17

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

 

[Asyncritus]

You've missed the point of the quotation.

If the FATHER comits all judgement to the Son, then I think that is very clear proof that the Father is the superior being, or however you wish to put it.

At least I think so.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You've missed the point of the quotation.

If the FATHER comits all judgement to the Son, then I think that is very clear proof that the Father is the superior being, or however you wish to put it.

At least I think so.

No you have missed the point, The Judge is God, whether the Father or the Son..

..ecc 3:17

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.