Is Jesus really God ?

[zionwarrior]

So the very fact that someone who shares a throne beside God, will make him also God ?

Does that also make the 24 Elders who sat on thrones with God also Gods ?

4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

 

[zionwarrior]

Jesus is God, no "lesser" to it. The slain Lamb had seven horns which are the seven Spirits of God. Jesus was before all things and was with God before all things and was God.

If Jesus is not lesser than his Father why does he receive direction from his father, who sent him, anointed him, and gave him his authority and power ?
And why does Jesus say he is not good, and only his father is good. He tells us he doesn't perform miracles by his own power.

 

[zionwarrior]

It is frustrating at times because most indoctrinated trinitarians seem to be so absorbed in their extra-Biblical terminology and concepts, which they see almost everywhere in scriptures. In actuality the philosophy has been placed over the scripture so that the scripture is being filtered by the philosophy, thus blinding the indoctrinated trinitarian to what the scripture is actually saying. Many scriptures were corrupted by copyists. Add to this the fact that most of our translations are the product of trinitarian scholars who wished to see the scriptures translated in such a way so as to make them appear to support the added trintarian dogma.

 

[Free]

It is frustrating at times because most indoctrinated trinitarians seem to be so absorbed in their extra-Biblical terminology and concepts, which they see almost everywhere in scriptures. In actuality the philosophy has been placed over the scripture so that the scripture is being filtered by the philosophy, thus blinding the indoctrinated trinitarian to what the scripture is actually saying. Many scriptures were corrupted by copyists. Add to this the fact that most of our translations are the product of trinitarian scholars who wished to see the scriptures translated in such a way so as to make them appear to support the added trintarian dogma.

What is frustrating is the continued lack of response to trinitarian arguments and the implication that all trinitarians are indoctrinated an unable to see the "real truth." Not to mention the continued posting of out-of-context Scripture by non-trinitarians who seem to think that they have proved something.

When all else fails, tell the other guy he's indoctrinated and blind, and appeal to Scriptural corruption, at which point any talk of the truth of Scripture becomes utterly pointless. Anyone can make those claims against anyone else who disagrees (and it happens all too often), which smacks of spiritual superiority, and it neither furthers the discussion nor promotes learning and it all just becomes finger pointing.

Please, at least attempt to provide a substantial response to some of the arguments put forward for the deity of Jesus.

 

[zionwarrior]

Please, at least attempt to provide a substantial response to some of the arguments put forward for the deity of Jesus.

Thats what im trying to do in relation to Drews quote on Daniel 7:

 

[Drew]

So the very fact that someone who shares a throne beside God, will make him also God ?

Does that also make the 24 Elders who sat on thrones with God also Gods ?

4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Interesting point and I would agree that the Daniel 7 text does not definitively place the Son of Man character at the same "level" as the Ancient of Days. I would suggest, though, that the fact that the Daniel 7 text does not "prove" the divinity of Jesus, it remains at least open to such a reading.

And you still have not engaged a number of arguments which I suggest more or less make the case that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel's God.

ZW, if you are trying to convince readers of the correctness of your position, you simply must deal with these arguments that you have hitherto ignored and / or dismissed. Surely you must realize how bad it looks for your position when you simply do not deal with clear counter-arguments to your position.

 

[Drew]

It is frustrating at times because most indoctrinated trinitarians seem to be so absorbed in their extra-Biblical terminology and concepts,......

I have produced a number of detailed argument that are Biblical through and through, and you have hitherto ignored these arguments. Now what do you think the objective will conclude?

The remainder of your post are simply unsupported assertions.

 

[Drew]

Thats what im trying to do in relation to Drews quote on Daniel 7:

Fair enough, and I have clearly backed off on the Daniel 7 argument - I agree that it is at best "open" to an interpretation where Jesus is divine. But I have admitted that the text could be read other ways as well.

But you still need to engage a raft of other arguments which you have either ignored or dismissed.

I cannot emphasize this enough - if there are any readers who are open to your position, they will wonder why you simply refuse to engage the arguments of we Trinitarians. These are Biblical arguments through and through.

 

[Sam21]

Your throne O God is for ever and ever, therefore God, Your God has anointed You(Psalm 45:6). It seems that God the Father calls Christ God.

 

[Drew]

Your throne O God is for ever and ever, therefore God, Your God has anointed You(Psalm 45:6). It seems that God the Father calls Christ God.

While I agree that Jesus is divine, I politely suggest you are assuming that that the "you" that is anointed is Jesus. I think this probably not correct - at least not directly. I suspect that the "you" that is anointed is Israel.

 

[Eventide]

Christ in you.. The Holy Spirit in you.. the Father in you...

One of the more practical ways of seeing the Godhead as a Trinity is because of what the scriptures teach with respect to WHO is IN US..

Did you know that the Holy Spirit is in us..?

Did you know that Christ is in us..?

Did you know that the Father is in us..?

All true according to scripture.. and yet we were all baptized into that one body by the SAME Spirit.. ie, we didn't get baptized into Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father on separate occasions, but once.. after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after we believed.

 

[Drew]

Part 1 of a two part argument for the divinity of Jesus

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father. This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God” (i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons” within “God”) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God.

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one god”. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons” within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one” claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is one”, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one” is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one” claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness” of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

 

[savedbygrace57]

And these Three are One !

Now lets look at the NT as it confirms the OT in particular the Isa 48 passage we just looked at that so clearly witnessed a Trinity of the Godhead. The Baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour, we have the same Three in view as sustaining their roles in the eternal redemptive purpose. We observe him that was made of a woman, and under the law to redeem etc.. And who was therefore the LORD GOD thy Redeemer..cp Isa 48:

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Now Gal 4:

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

So the redeemer is being baptized, and the Spirit who along with the Father sent Him as per Isa 48:

16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

And so the Spirit is fulfilling His role here at the baptism of Christ for He testifies of the Redeemer Jn 15:26 so Identifying, by a visible appearance [matt 3:16] Jesus as the Messiah or Redeemer, of which John also bear witness of Him being the Son of God [jn 1:33,34]

And also the Father , [who also sent the Redeemer along with the Spirit] was manifested as approving of the Work of the Son and Redeemer was to be occupied in and so we hear Him speaking Matt 3:

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So, this NT Passage actually confirms and Fulfills the passage of Isa 48:16-17 and this also gives validation to the disputed scripture of 1 jn 5 7 that Three bear witness in Heaven and these Three are One. It does not matter the attack from hell that this scripture receives, its confirmed by other scripture..​

 

[Drew]

Part 2 of an argument for Jesus' divinity (please find part 1 above):

Here, again, is the famous shema text which Paul alludes to in the 1 Corinthians text and which would be well known to any Jew:

Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Now not what Paul does with this – he says this:

there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ

Note how in the shema the terms “Lord†and “God†are both terms used to refer to the “oneâ€. And yet Paul has teased these two descriptors apart, applying the latter to “the Father†and the former to Jesus. Do you see what Paul is doing – he is taking the quintessential Jewish expression of the oneness of Israel’s God and he is placing Jesus right in the middle of that (along with the Father, of course). How much clearer can Paul possibly be - Jesus is to be understood as part and parcel of that which is referred to when the Jew declares “the Lord our God is oneâ€. Therefore, we cannot read Paul as doing anything other than declaring the divinity of Jesus.

So here we have a Biblical argument – not one that appeals to external sources – that shows that Paul sees Jesus as belonging to the referent of this most Jewish of sayings: “the Lord our God is one[/COLO]â€.

 

[Free]

Just a reminder that this thread is not about the Trinity per se, but about whether or not Jesus is God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ is God as it has been seen, for it is not in the power of language to express acts of confidence and homage of a higher character than those which we observe in scripture as rendered to Christ from all creatures..

 

[zionwarrior]

Part 1 of a two part argument for the divinity of Jesus

Consider this text from 1 Corinthians 8:

Therefore concerning the eating of (H)things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

I will argue that this text demonstrates that Paul believes that Jesus shares divinity with God the Father. This argument has two essential elements: (1) that Jewish monotheism was never an inner analysis of the nature of “God†(i.e. an analysis of the possibility, or lack thereof, of multiple “persons†within “Godâ€) but was rather a polemic against pagan gods; and (2) that Paul clearly stitches Jesus into the Shema, the most central of Jewish declarations about God.

Pre-conceptions are so difficult to shake. Many who come to the Trinity debate do so in a state of relative ignorance about what the Bible (and other historical sources) tell us about the nature of the Jewish Old Testament claim that there is only “one godâ€. Almost everyone, including many people who affirm the Trinity, think that this is a claim that there can be no “inner multiplicity of persons†within the Godhead. And I am not sure how Trinitarians who believe this accommodate such a position with their view that there are in fact, three persons in the Godhead.

However, this is simply not what the Jew is saying when s/he claims that there is only one God. What the Bible (and history) tells us, instead, is that this “God is one†claim is essentially a battle-cry against pagans – by declaring “our God is oneâ€, the Jew is really saying that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. So the declaration “our God is one†is really directed outward at the pagans their gods, it is not an inward-looking analysis of the nature of Israel’s God.

And Paul clearly has precisely this outward-looking view. In the text from 1 Corinthians, Paul quotes a number of Old Testament passages, including the famous shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 (Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!), and sets the “God is one†claim right in the middle of a critique of pagan gods. In doing so, he is doing precisely what is done in the Old Testament. When Paul asserts the “oneness†of Israel’s God, he is not talking about the inner nature of the Godhead – he is plugging into to the running Jewish polemic against pagan gods. And as will be demonstrated next, it is clear that Paul is, in fact, making the argument that, indeed, there is multiplicity in the Godhead.

Paul first refers to the idols to which sacrifices are made, and concerning theses states that there are those that are called ‘gods’. An idol, of course, is nothing; that which is made by the hands of men that is worshiped as “gods†“by nature are not gods.†(Galatians 4:8, ESV) By nature that which is made and formed by the hands men to which men make sacrifices has no “might†of itself to either cause harm are to cause good. (Psalm 115:4-8; 135:15-18; Isaiah 44:9-20) However, Paul, in harmony with the Old Testament, says that those who make offerings to such idol-gods are actually making offerings to demons, and not to the one true God. (Deuteronomy 32;17; Psalm 106:37; 2 Corinthians 10:20) These demons do have power, and are “by nature†mighty, but the man-made idol (gods) have no power, and thus, are not, by nature, mighty, and are certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul, in speaking of the idols ‘gods’ says that there are many that are “called†gods, but he adds to that “there are many gods.†Is he simply repeating himself? Evidently not; rather, he is contrasting those that are “called†gods with others that are indeed “godsâ€. By comparing spiritual revelation with spiritual revelation, we conclude that in the latter usage, Paul speaking of “gods†in the sense of might and power as contrasted with idols, which have no might or power.

That there indeed are many “gods†–mighty ones — is affirmed by Jesus. (John 10:34,35) The “gods†that Jesus referred to are the “sons of God†to whom the Logos came, and who received him. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 1:10-12) These are not false gods; but neither are they the one true God, the Might of the universe. They are mighty (gods – el, elohim, theoi) because of the power and authority given to them by the one true Might. Nevertheless, even the demons have been given great might from the only true Might, and they have misused that might. As to the promises of demons, however, they are false gods, but as to their being, by nature, they are true gods, that is, they really do have power and might.

 

[zionwarrior]

1 Corinthians 8:6 – yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. — World English

To “usâ€, that is, we who “who are sanctified in [by means of] Christ Jesus, called to be saints†(1 Corinthians 1:2), there is but one God — One who is the Supreme Being, the Might of the Universe. This one God is the God that is spoken of as the God — The Supreme Being — of Jesus, the one that Jesus speaks of as the only true God, the only true Supreme Being. (These references are to the World English Bible translation: Psalm 45:7; Micah 5:4; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 17:3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; Revelation 1:6; 2:7; 3:2,12) Thus, the God and Father of Jesus is the “one God†— the one Supreme Being — that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

That One true Supreme Being is the One who has made Jesus both Christ and Lord. Jesus is the only one who has been made our Lord by our only true God, and thus “we†have that one who is our “one Lordâ€. — Acts 2:36; Romans 14:9; Ephesians 1:22; 2 Timothy 4:3.

 

[Free]

Paul first refers to the idols to which sacrifices are made, and concerning theses states that there are those that are called ‘gods’. An idol, of course, is nothing; that which is made by the hands of men that is worshiped as “gods” “by nature are not gods.” (Galatians 4:8, ESV) By nature that which is made and formed by the hands men to which men make sacrifices has no “might” of itself to either cause harm are to cause good. (Psalm 115:4-8; 135:15-18; Isaiah 44:9-20) However, Paul, in harmony with the Old Testament, says that those who make offerings to such idol-gods are actually making offerings to demons, and not to the one true God. (Deuteronomy 32;17; Psalm 106:37; 2 Corinthians 10:20) These demons do have power, and are “by nature” mighty, but the man-made idol (gods) have no power, and thus, are not, by nature, mighty, and are certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Paul, in speaking of the idols ‘gods’ says that there are many that are “called” gods, but he adds to that “there are many gods.” Is he simply repeating himself? Evidently not; rather, he is contrasting those that are “called” gods with others that are indeed “gods”. By comparing spiritual revelation with spiritual revelation, we conclude that in the latter usage, Paul speaking of “gods” in the sense of might and power as contrasted with idols, which have no might or power.

That there indeed are many “gods” –mighty ones — is affirmed by Jesus. (John 10:34,35) The “gods” that Jesus referred to are the “sons of God” to whom the Logos came, and who received him. (Psalm 82:1,6,7; John 1:10-12) These are not false gods; but neither are they the one true God, the Might of the universe. They are mighty (gods – el, elohim, theoi) because of the power and authority given to them by the one true Might. Nevertheless, even the demons have been given great might from the only true Might, and they have misused that might. As to the promises of demons, however, they are false gods, but as to their being, by nature, they are true gods, that is, they really do have power and might.

1 Corinthians 8:6 – yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. — World English

To “us”, that is, we who “who are sanctified in [by means of] Christ Jesus, called to be saints” (1 Corinthians 1:2), there is but one God — One who is the Supreme Being, the Might of the Universe. This one God is the God that is spoken of as the God — The Supreme Being — of Jesus, the one that Jesus speaks of as the only true God, the only true Supreme Being. (These references are to the World English Bible translation: Psalm 45:7; Micah 5:4; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 17:3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; Revelation 1:6; 2:7; 3:2,12) Thus, the God and Father of Jesus is the “one God” — the one Supreme Being — that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

That One true Supreme Being is the One who has made Jesus both Christ and Lord. Jesus is the only one who has been made our Lord by our only true God, and thus “we” have that one who is our “one Lord”. — Acts 2:36; Romans 14:9; Ephesians 1:22; 2 Timothy 4:3.

Not quoting your sources is plagiarism.2

1 Corinthians 8:6 – One God, One Lord; Deuteronomy 6:4


The obvious problem with 1 Cor 8:6 I have already pointed out in this thread:

Just as "from whom are all things" precludes the Father from being a creature, "through whom are all things" precludes Christ from being a creature.

Not to mention that if one says, based on this passage, that Jesus cannot be God, then the Father cannot be Lord.

 

[darktipper]

Remember when Jesus was on the cross/stake he said Father why have you forsaken me?
That right there is proof that Jesus is not God but he is in tune with him. Also Jesus prayed to God throughout the bible. If he was God then he would not even need to pray. Jehovah and Jesus are two separate people. It is like the president and a vice president. God lets Jesus do certain things. Also the bible states that God is the only one who knows when Armageddon will occur. That means Jesus does not know when it will happen but he will be ready to return to the Earth. Here are a few scriptures that shows they are 2 different people.......
John 14:28 You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.


John 3:16For God(Jehovah) so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son(Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It shows you God's power. He can send his son to do his will while he is up in heaven still doing other things at the same time. That is a scary thought....