Is Jesus really God ?

[Zyrenah]

in my opinion... yes.

 

[mcgyver]

Open mouthed amazement here...

Have those who deny the divinity of Jesus (the Hypostatic Union) seriously considered:

1. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then one's faith and trust is in a mere man?

2. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then He is at best a lunatic, a liar, and a usurper? (Or perhaps the Jews who picked up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy were mistaken as to what He was claiming...)

3. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then He could not fulfill the law of the Kinsman redeemer for all mankind...Jew and Gentile alike?

4. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, Isaiah 9:6 (...mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of peace...) is a false prophecy?

5. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then in like manner Isaiah 7:14 (Immanuel: God with us) is also false?

6. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then Titus 2:13 (looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ) was written by some dude obviously smoking dope. :p

7. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then 1 Tim 3:16 (And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.) Is neither a mystery, nor is it true...

8. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then Thomas committed the greatest blasphemy that a Jew could commit when he declared: "my Lord and my God"...and to make things worse, Jesus blessed him for it.

There is a stern warning given by the Apostle John in 1 John 4:2-3 (written in direct response to the teaching of Cerinthus and others who denied the deity of Christ):

By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Might be a wise move to seriously study what is meant by the phrase : "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"...

***EDIT***

BTW...Antichrist doesn't mean "against Christ" in the common (Koine) Greek...it means "Instead of Christ"....a false Christ...

Anti is used far more commonly to mean "Instead of"...compare Luke 11:11 for example, and you'll see: ...Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?...the phrase: αντι ιχθυος...Anti Ichthus... instead of fish...

 

[Alabaster]

Open mouthed amazement here...

Have those who deny the divinity of Jesus (the Hypostatic Union) seriously considered:

1. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then one's faith and trust is in a mere man?

2. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then He is at best a lunatic, a liar, and a usurper? (Or perhaps the Jews who picked up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy were mistaken as to what He was claiming...)

3. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then He could not fulfill the law of the Kinsman redeemer for all mankind...Jew and Gentile alike?

4. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, Isaiah 9:6 (...mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of peace...) is a false prophecy?

5. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then in like manner Isaiah 7:14 (Immanuel: God with us) is also false?

6. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then Titus 2:13 (looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ) was written by some dude obviously smoking dope. :p

7. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then 1 Tim 3:16 (And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.) Is neither a mystery, nor is it true...

8. That if Jesus is not God in the flesh, then Thomas committed the greatest blasphemy that a Jew could commit when he declared: "my Lord and my God"...and to make things worse, Jesus blessed him for it.

There is a stern warning given by the Apostle John in 1 John 4:2-3 (written in direct response to the teaching of Cerinthus and others who denied the deity of Christ):

By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Might be a wise move to seriously study what is meant by the phrase : "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"...

 

[Who Says]

Wake up. You're dreaming. If you are presumptuous enough to teach that Jesus is not God, then you need to be avoided, according to God's instruction to us in the Bible.

Romans 16:17 NLT
And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

Precisely Alabaster,

So instead of just throwing Romans 16:17 out randomly as you do, learn first to decipher between what is needed correction for the sake of glorifying the gospel of Christ toward the world we are to be a light in, and do not wrangle about the things that do not detract from that message.

That requires godly thinking though and not everyone can therefore do it. Those that cannot do it are Edomite Christians spying out the freedom of the true sons of God but having no intelligence to understand what they see.

 

[Asyncritus]

Here are about 78 references where Jesus Himself expressly says that He is subordinate to His Father. Some of the references are also from other people, but most are from Him.

1. “ No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.†(Joh 1:18 )

2. “ And I saw and bore testimony, that this is the Son of God.†(Joh 1:34 )

3. “ Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.†(Joh 1:49 )

4. “ And said to them that sold doves, Take these things hence: make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise.†(Joh 2:16 )

5. “ The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.†(Joh 3:2 )

6. “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.†(Joh 3:16 )

7. “ He that believeth on him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.†(Joh 3:18 )

8. “ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.†(Joh 3:17 )

9. “ For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God: for to him God giveth not the Spirit by measure.†(Joh 3:34 )

10. “ The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.†(Joh 3:35 )

11. “ The woman saith to him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.†(Joh 4:19 )

12. “ Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship, for salvation is from the Jews.†(Joh 4:22 )

13. “ Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.†(Joh 5:18 )

14. “ Then answered Jesus, and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing by himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for whatever things he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.†(Joh 5:19 )

15. “ For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth the dead, and reviveth them; even so the Son reviveth whom he will.†(Joh 5:20-21 )

16. “ For the Father judgeth no man; but hath committed all judgment to the Son:†(Joh 5:22 )

17. “ Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.†(Joh 5:24 )

18. “ Verily, verily, I say to you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.†(Joh 5:25-27 )


19. “ I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent me.†(Joh 5:30 )

20. “ But I have greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear testimony concerning me, that the Father hath sent me.†(Joh 5:36 )

21. “ And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath borne testimony concerning me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.†(Joh 5:37 )

22. “ And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.†(Joh 5:38 )

23. “ I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.†(Joh 5:43 )

24. “ And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes, as much as they would.†(Joh 6:11 )

25. “ Labor not for the food which perisheth, but for that food which endureth to everlasting life, which the Son of man will give to you: for him hath God the Father sealed.†(Joh 6:27 )

26. “ Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.†(Joh 6:29 )

27. “ Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.†(Joh 6:32 )

28. “ All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise reject.†(Joh 6:37 )

29. “ For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.†(Joh 6:38-39 )

30. “ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.†(Joh 6:40 )

31. “ No man can come to me, except the Father who hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.†(Joh 6:44 )

32. “ It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught from God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned from the Father, cometh to me.†(Joh 6:45 )

33. “ Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he who is from God, he hath seen the Father.†(Joh 6:46 )

34. “ As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.†(Joh 6:57 )
35.
36. “ And we believe, and are sure that thou art that Christthe Son of the living God.†(Joh 6:69 )
37.
38. “ And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.†(Joh 8:16 )

 

[Asyncritus]

39. “ I am one that testifieth concerning myself; and the Father that sent me, testifieth concerning me.†(Joh 8:18 )

40. “ Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.†(Joh 8:28 )

41. “ Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.†(Joh 8:42 )


42. “ But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard from God: this did not Abraham.†(Joh 8:40 )


43. “ And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.†(Joh 8:29 )

44. “ Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me, of whom ye say, that he is your God:†(Joh 8:54 )

45. “ Jesus heard that they had cast him out: and when he had found him, he said to him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?†(Joh 9:35 )

46. “ No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from my Father.†(Joh 10:18 )

47. “ My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and none is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.†(Joh 10:29 )

48. “ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?†(Joh 10:36 )

49. “ Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?†(Joh 10:32 )
50.
51. “ But I know that even now, whatever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.†(Joh 11:22 )

52. “ Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me: And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people who stand by, I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.†(Joh 11:41-42 )

53. “ For I have not spoken from myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.†(Joh 12:49 )

54. “ And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.†(Joh 12:50 )

55. “ Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God, and was going to God;†(Joh 13:3 )

56. “ Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.†(Joh 13:31 )

57. “ If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and will immediately glorify him.†(Joh 13:32 )

58. “ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.†(Joh 14:10 )

59. “ And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;†(Joh 14:16 )

60. “ But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.†(Joh 14:26 )

61. “ Ye have heard that I said to you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I.†(Joh 14:28 )

62. “ But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.†(Joh 14:31 )
63.
64. “ If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.†(Joh 15:10 )

65. “ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he will testify concerning me.†(Joh 15:26 )
66.
67. “ I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.†(Joh 16:28 )

68. “ These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:†(Joh 17:1 )

69. “ As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.†(Joh 17:2 )

70. “ And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.†(Joh 17:3 )

71. “ And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thy ownself, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.†(Joh 17:5 )

72. “ I have given to them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.†(Joh 17:14 )

73. “ And the glory which thou gavest to me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one.†(Joh 17:22 )

74. “ Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given to me be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory which thou hast given to me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.†(Joh 17:24 )

75. “ Then said Jesus to Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?†(Joh 18:11 )

76. “ The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.†(Joh 19:7 )

77. “ Jesus saith to her, Touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.†(Joh20:17 )

78. “ But these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye may have life through his name.†(Joh 20:31 )

 

[Alabaster]

Precisely Alabaster,

So instead of just throwing Romans 16:17 out randomly as you do, learn first to decipher between what is needed correction for the sake of glorifying the gospel of Christ toward the world we are to be a light in, and do not wrangle about the things that do not detract from that message.

That requires godly thinking though and not everyone can therefore do it. Those that cannot do it are Edomite Christians spying out the freedom of the true sons of God but having no intelligence to understand what they see.

It wasn't random. It was precise and for you.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus taught us God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. If God is spirit, then he is not flesh and blood. So, saying God became a man is not only false, but it negates the teaching. What is the point in Jesus saying God is spirit, when he is a man, and, according to you, he is God. Wouldn't he have to say, God is a man, if, in truth, he was God? The teaching that God is spirit comes first if you want to grow in the knowledge of God. You have to follow what Jesus said, not what your doctrine says. Follow Jesus. Think about what he said.

 

[mcgyver]

Jesus taught us God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. If God is spirit, then he is not flesh and blood. So, saying God became a man is not only false, but it negates the teaching. What is the point in Jesus saying God is spirit, when he is a man, and, according to you, he is God. Wouldn't he have to say, God is a man, if, in truth, he was God? The teaching that God is spirit comes first if you want to grow in the knowledge of God. You have to follow what Jesus said, not what your doctrine says. Follow Jesus. Think about what he said.

Been a long time since I've seen Gnosticism...

 

[Sam21]

Jesus taught us God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. If God is spirit, then he is not flesh and blood. So, saying God became a man is not only false, but it negates the teaching. What is the point in Jesus saying God is spirit, when he is a man, and, according to you, he is God. Wouldn't he have to say, God is a man, if, in truth, he was God? The teaching that God is spirit comes first if you want to grow in the knowledge of God. You have to follow what Jesus said, not what your doctrine says. Follow Jesus. Think about what he said.

God is a Spirit, the angels are spirit beings, the devil and demons are spirit beings(unclean spirits), a human being is a spirit being that lives in a body. The angel from God said that Jesus would be called the Son of God, if God is God then Son of God would seem to be God.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus taught us God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. If God is spirit, then he is not flesh and blood. So, saying God became a man is not only false, but it negates the teaching. What is the point in Jesus saying God is spirit, when he is a man, and, according to you, he is God. Wouldn't he have to say, God is a man, if, in truth, he was God? The teaching that God is spirit comes first if you want to grow in the knowledge of God. You have to follow what Jesus said, not what your doctrine says. Follow Jesus. Think about what he said.

Human understanding is so very feeble.

God the Father is Spirit.
God the Son is flesh, IMMANUEL, God with us!
God the Holy Spirit is the Son in Spirit, the Comforter.

 

[Free]

Asyncritus,

All such verses have been dealt with and none prove that Jesus isn't God.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Been a long time since I've seen Gnosticism...

Trinitarianism comes from Gnosticism. There were two groups of Gnostics, those who were opposed to Christianity, and those who weren't. The Judaizing Christians were not Gnostics. The term Gnostic was also used in a negative way even then. Anyone who did not agree with the Catholics were called Gnostics, meaning that they think they know, but their belief is disputed. The Judaizing Christians were Anti Hellenist, Gnostic, Pagan, Kabbalist, and the authority of the Pope.

 

[Free]

Trinitarianism comes from Gnosticism. There were two groups of Gnostics, those who were opposed to Christianity, and those who weren't. The Judaizing Christians were not Gnostics. The term Gnostic was also used in a negative way even then. Anyone who did not agree with the Catholics were called Gnostics, meaning that they think they know, but their belief is disputed. The Judaizing Christians were Anti Hellenist, Gnostic, Pagan, Kabbalist, and the authority of the Pope.

Which were they?

Anyway, no, trinitarianism does not come from Gnosticism.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Which were they?

Anyway, no, trinitarianism does not come from Gnosticism.

Because the Roman Impire was divided, Christianity was paganized to make it compatible with other beliefs. The Judaizing Christians were hated by everyone. Example: Yahwah's name was in the original scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the New Testament.
The Jews who were killing the Hebrew Christians were the Hellenistic Jews.

 

[Who Says]

It wasn't random. It was precise and for you.

But of course.

How could anyone expect you to say less?

 

[Who Says]

Jesus taught us God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. If God is spirit, then he is not flesh and blood. So, saying God became a man is not only false, but it negates the teaching. What is the point in Jesus saying God is spirit, when he is a man, and, according to you, he is God. Wouldn't he have to say, God is a man, if, in truth, he was God? The teaching that God is spirit comes first if you want to grow in the knowledge of God. You have to follow what Jesus said, not what your doctrine says. Follow Jesus. Think about what he said.

That is good sound thinkung and shows a humble effort to be reasonable as one ought to be.

Let us not forget that whilst we are side-tracked debating who he is we are not listening to what he teaches us about our spirit and we are hindered in transforming our person to his image.

 

[Who Says]

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

And ignoring that many of you come preaching, "If you do not believe Jesus is God you are going to hell! Your are a heritic! God spoke in judgement about such ones as you!!!"

You are standing up in the temple of God acting as gods and shaming your owner and maker.

Get the word of hate out of your mouth that you might honor God instead of painting a false picture of him to the world.

And you marvel that there are false Christs taught. Oh, but it could not possibly be that you yourselves do not know him and are the very ones teaching a false Christ.

But why else is blind called blind but that it is blind?

 

[Free]

That is good sound thinkung and shows a humble effort to be reasonable as one ought to be.

Let us not forget that whilst we are side-tracked debating who he is we are not listening to what he teaches us about our spirit and we are hindered in transforming our person to his image.

Well, no, it really isn't sound thinking, at least not a sound argument.

It is goo to speak of being transformed into his image, but what is that image? Who he is is absolutely central.

 

[Who Says]

Well, no, it really isn't sound thinking, at least not a sound argument.

It is goo to speak of being transformed into his image, but what is that image? Who he is is absolutely central.

So you believe he is absolutely God and that you too can be absolutely God?

I think you know your own argument is just evasive.