lol! I don't know how "goo" ended up in there. That was supposed to be "true." No, of course I don't believe that we can be God, but he is.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
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Who Says
Guest
Amen. I do apologize then for thinking you were just evading the point.
Shame on me. :yes
My concern is that central to our needs is seeing the core issue which is that of self-glorification.
The biting and devouring that brothers do of brothers is a failure in appreciating this most central issue. And it is at the core of the presentation of Christ.
We tend to lord it over each other with our knowledge thinking we are performing a service for God. It gets so bad that when others are slow to agree with us we begin to see them as evil rather than merely as we ourselves were. Such is the effect of self-glorification. Proverbs 29:2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."
We must begin by seeing that: Mark 9:35 "And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all."
We cannot do that and go around judging everyone: James 2:12 "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."
James 4:1 "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
James 4:10 "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11 ¶Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"
This core issue was first seen here: Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"
What was Adams sin? It was self elevation. Self-appointment. The one God said to, "Look, the man has become as one of us" did not appoint himself. He did not glorify himself. But Adam did glorify himself.
And the core struggle today is seeing how we yet do what Adam did. That is what we need most to learn in Jesus. And we are not honoring God by obscuring that lesson.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
The Bible Teaches Jesus is God because
He says rev 1:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
He also claims to be the Almighty Deity that "openeth and no man shutteth; and shutteth and no man openeth" rev 3:
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
job 12:
14Behold, he breaketh down, and it cannot be built again: he shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening.
This is a prerogative of Only God per psalms 68:
20He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
He says rev 1:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
He also claims to be the Almighty Deity that "openeth and no man shutteth; and shutteth and no man openeth" rev 3:
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
job 12:
14Behold, he breaketh down, and it cannot be built again: he shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening.
This is a prerogative of Only God per psalms 68:
20He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
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Alabaster
Guest
God created perfect Adam and Eve to be like Him.
In Christ, we can be that new creation as Adam originally was...like God.
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Who Says
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Let's listen to you then while you explain this: Genesis 3:22 ¶And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
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savedbygrace57
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ala:
No He did not, for if Adam and Eve were created Perfect like God, they would not have sinned..
It was God's design and purpose before the world began to present His People perfect through Christ, not through Adam..
eph 1:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
But thats not an issue to discuss on this thread..
No He did not, for if Adam and Eve were created Perfect like God, they would not have sinned..
It was God's design and purpose before the world began to present His People perfect through Christ, not through Adam..
eph 1:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
But thats not an issue to discuss on this thread..
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Who Says
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Are you certain you do not wish to change that to God made them perfect but they corrupted themselves?
We all have those poorly thought out moments.
Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
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savedbygrace57
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who says:
ask that question on this thread please:
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/what-if-adam-had-not-sinned-28659/
ask that question on this thread please:
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/what-if-adam-had-not-sinned-28659/
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Who Says
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I went and looked at the above thread. I don't care to get involved. I long ago found the answers of truth concerning that subject. That is a common Muslim belief the way you express it.
I know that what you are saying in that thread is not true but the spirit in me says, "Let them be."
So, have fun. Every falsehood eventually runs up against its impediments. The truth coming out about it is not dependent on me. I do not have to complicate my life by getting involved with every discussion. God has it all under control.
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Alabaster
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Before Adam and Eve sinned--and before even Eve came, God had perfect communion with man. No sin. No impediment. His crowning creation was like Him.
Now we have the new Adam who brings us back to that perfect state before holy God. Our position before God is just like Adam's first state because of the blood of the Lamb. In real time, however, we are being renewed daily to conform to the image of Christ--who is God in the flesh! Praise God!
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Alabaster
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I suppose you don't grasp the fact that Adam was originally perfect?
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savedbygrace57
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ws:
Thats fine, but that will be where I will answer that question, until then, lets try to keep this thread on the main subject..Thanks..
Thats fine, but that will be where I will answer that question, until then, lets try to keep this thread on the main subject..Thanks..
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Who Says
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John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Even of his disciples he said: Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 17:1 ¶These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
I agree. However, this isn't at all about self-glorification or lording knowledge over others. This is about false teaching versus true teaching; false gospel versus true; false Christ versus true. Certainly you would agree that we are to reject false prophets, false teachers, false gospels, etc. This discussion is about getting to the truth of a matter, the most important matter in Scripture in fact.
Who Jesus is is central in distinguishing true Christianity from false. This is why some on these boards, in the past, have not been willing to give an answer as to whether or not groups like Mormons or JWs are Christian. Both those groups "accept Christ as Lord" and believe he is the Son of God. Those who think all that matters when it comes to Jesus are acceptance of those two statements, suddenly are unable to make a judgment regarding false teachers and prophet, something which true Christians are commanded to do.
Who Jesus is is absolutely central to our salvation. If he isn't God, then it can be argued, and it has been by someone else in this thread, there can be no salvation for anyone, except that of Christ himself. It could then be argued that we are all responsible for our own salvation through living a perfect life and then dying in such a way we make propitiation for ourselves.
Debating an issue need not be about self-glorification, although I would agree that this often becomes the goal for people. This issue is about the proper glorification of Christ.
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Who Says
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I agree with much of what you say. But I also see that many go beyond what the scriptures teach we need to believe of Jesus as essential for now. And in pushing what the scriptures do not push as urgent they deprive tender ones of the time they need to learn.
When I was a baby I knew only that my mother was there to take care of me and hardly knew my father at all. I did not know either one well even at five years old. I am not so certain I did at 15. LOL. I had to suffer their pains before I could understand them and to me that is as taking up the cross of Christ.
We learn really to know Christ by bearing his cross which is why Paul said, 1 Corinthians 2:1 ¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
We learn that power when we also have to use it to overcome the obstacles in our own life. And we do not know it to be able to teach it to others until then unless we had very special circumstances to our upbringing as did Timothy. Yet even then it took Paul's experience to refine Timothy and complete Timothy's understanding.
As far as what you said about group, I do not see any where the group has all correct teachings or the entirety of its flock is really in Christ. Some fewer than others and some more than others, but that is why those churches in Revelation are shown having to conquer. At least that is my opinion of that. The true church of Christ is spiritual in heaven as described at Hebrews 12: 22-24. We must see it by eyes of faith, keeping our eyes not on things seen but on things unseen.
I believe it is a mistake to look for Christ's church in the flesh. And I believe it is in the flesh we see all the division that convinces many Christianity is a joke, thus making it important for us to put the emphasis on teaching men to see through spiritual eyes and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
We walk by faith not by sight. This keeps us free to love in the flesh despite our differences.
I do not think I am the only one among us that sees that the Israel of flesh was just the incubator to produce the spiritual seed. And that is why Paul said not all who were of Israel were really Israel, but only those spiritual few. So also with the flesh and blood church that we see. It is just the incubator.
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Shows how much you know. Salvation is in the words of life, and faith. That's why I say, read the words.
This is not science, so don't look for evidence of a theory. Believe what you have heard from God.
Did you read my answer to your last post. It`s back a few pages.
I do believe I have heard from God that Jesus is God the Son and that this is absolutely central to salvation. A strong case can be made that believing in Jesus (John 3:15-18) means believing in who he is as well as what he has done. One cannot separate doctrine about Christ from belief in Christ.
I think I saw it at one point and didn't have the time to answer, then forgot. I don't have the time now but, provided I remember, I will get to it.MarkT said:
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savedbygrace57
Guest
For the Deity of Christ !
Lk 17:
11And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
The giving Him Thanks here points to Jesus being God, in that elsewhere in the NT such giving of Thanks, greek word eucharisteo is always directed towards God, in everyone of 37 other occurences..
Lk 17:
11And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
The giving Him Thanks here points to Jesus being God, in that elsewhere in the NT such giving of Thanks, greek word eucharisteo is always directed towards God, in everyone of 37 other occurences..
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Who Says
Guest
???
Thank you kind sir.
I have to plead stupid here.
How does that relate to my asking you to explain Genesis 3:22 to me if you would?
Now, before you answer, I know God is so much greater than Satan that there is no way Satan or Adam thought they could actually be God. That would be shearly rediculous to think.
So what did God mean when he said, "Look, the man has become as one of us..."?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Jesus is God because He confesses His omnipotence as He states:
jn 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Now observe the expressions: Does not the works of the Father prove and evidence His omnipotence ? And the Son performs the very same works in like manner, then without debate, they prove the Son's omnipotence.
Now some will foolishly cry, this is delegated omnipotence, but this is a absurdity to rob Christ of His Deity. For certainly if omnipotence is not one of the incommunicable attributes of Deity, What is ?
If omnipotent, He must be God or there are must be Two omnipotent Beings, One God and One not God, how ridiculous..
jn 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Now observe the expressions: Does not the works of the Father prove and evidence His omnipotence ? And the Son performs the very same works in like manner, then without debate, they prove the Son's omnipotence.
Now some will foolishly cry, this is delegated omnipotence, but this is a absurdity to rob Christ of His Deity. For certainly if omnipotence is not one of the incommunicable attributes of Deity, What is ?
If omnipotent, He must be God or there are must be Two omnipotent Beings, One God and One not God, how ridiculous..