Is Jesus really God ?

[Alabaster]

???



Thank you kind sir.

Kind, yes. Sir, no.

I have to plead stupid here.

How does that relate to my asking you to explain Genesis 3:22 to me if you would?

Now, before you answer, I know God is so much greater than Satan that there is no way Satan or Adam thought they could actually be God. That would be shearly rediculous to think.

So what did God mean when he said, "Look, the man has become as one of us..."?

Satan had so much pride, he decided he could indeed overthrow God. So, let's move on, shall we?

God said what He said to the Son and the Spirit (the third Person of the Godhead) because Adam and Eve had just partaken of the fruit that had opened their minds and hearts to both good and evil, where before they had known only the goodness of God.

 

[Sam21]

I agree. However, this isn't at all about self-glorification or lording knowledge over others. This is about false teaching versus true teaching; false gospel versus true; false Christ versus true. Certainly you would agree that we are to reject false prophets, false teachers, false gospels, etc. This discussion is about getting to the truth of a matter, the most important matter in Scripture in fact.

Who Jesus is is central in distinguishing true Christianity from false. This is why some on these boards, in the past, have not been willing to give an answer as to whether or not groups like Mormons or JWs are Christian. Both those groups "accept Christ as Lord" and believe he is the Son of God. Those who think all that matters when it comes to Jesus are acceptance of those two statements, suddenly are unable to make a judgment regarding false teachers and prophet, something which true Christians are commanded to do.

Who Jesus is is absolutely central to our salvation. If he isn't God, then it can be argued, and it has been by someone else in this thread, there can be no salvation for anyone, except that of Christ himself. It could then be argued that we are all responsible for our own salvation through living a perfect life and then dying in such a way we make propitiation for ourselves.

Debating an issue need not be about self-glorification, although I would agree that this often becomes the goal for people. This issue is about the proper glorification of Christ.

Good post, if Jesus is not God then the whole christian faith falls apart and just becomes another religion, so to debate the scriptural authority that presents Jesus as God is of great importance. Jesus prefered to call Himself the son of man,however when we read all of what He said and did it is clear that Jesus declared Himself to be God.

 

[Who Says]

Jesus is God because He confesses His omnipotence as He states:

jn 5:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Now observe the expressions: Does not the works of the Father prove and evidence His omnipotence ? And the Son performs the very same works in like manner, then without debate, they prove the Son's omnipotence.

Now some will foolishly cry, this is delegated omnipotence, but this is a absurdity to rob Christ of His Deity. For certainly if omnipotence is not one of the incommunicable attributes of Deity, What is ?

If omnipotent, He must be God or there are must be Two omnipotent Beings, One God and One not God, how ridiculous..

Satan had so much pride, he decided he could indeed overthrow God. So, let's move on, shall we?

God said what He said to the Son and the Spirit (the third Person of the Godhead) because Adam and Eve had just partaken of the fruit that had opened their minds and hearts to both good and evil, where before they had known only the goodness of God.

I don't understand your seeing it that way. I see the the Son say "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" as just a way of saying the same as what it mean if I said that same thing about my fleshly father.

And all I would be saying is that, "I do not do anything except my father shows me." And why would I say that? Only because I was being accused of not having the authority to speak for my father and therefore speaking my own thoughts and desires.

I just do not understand how you can see the thoughts you claim are there. I don't see those thoughts you expressed even there.

 

[Alabaster]

I don't understand your seeing it that way.

I just do not understand how you can see the thoughts you claim are there.

I don't see those thoughts you expressed even there.

That is very true.

 

[Free]

If God became a man, it would make the LORD a liar. If the LORD said God is not man, then he is not man. Likewise, if I said I am not a bird that I can fly, you would agree. I am not a bird. You would agree. I can not fly. But then if I became a bird, my original statement would become false. God doesn't make false statements.

Of course he doesn't. However, God stating that he is not a man does not preclude him from taking on human flesh.

No. Not from a Trinitarian understanding. You keep saying Jesus was God incarnate. I say, if Jesus was the LORD, it follows from that that the LORD did not have life in himself, as God has life in himself, before he was born into the world.

Your conclusion does not follow and your premise is incorrect, which I have shown and will show again.

You have to agree, at some point, before he was conceived, that Jesus, the Son of God, did not have life in himself. He told us, “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. John 5:26 The Father granted the Son to have life in himself.

No, I do not have to agree and you are begging the question. If you had stated that at some point after conception the Son was granted life in himself from the Father, then I would be more inclined to agree.

If Jesus was the LORD, and the LORD was God, then the LORD was God in name only, not the true God, as I have said and as Jesus said. ‘And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.“ John 17:3

Jesus told us the Father is the only true God. Why doesn’t the doctrine of the Trinity say that? Where is the truth in the Trinity?

As I have stated and will state again, "LORD" = "YHWH;" they are interchangeable. Therefore, if you want to claim that Jesus is LORD, to which I agree, it follows that Jesus is YHWH, that he is very much true God. There is absolutely no other way the claim that Jesus is LORD could be understood. As I had stated previously, the claim that Jesus is LORD, is very trinitarian (and Oneness/modalist, but we won't go there).

I really do not think that his statement precludes him from being God but I will look into Jesus's statement in John 17:3 further. It is worth noting, however, that he equates eternal life not only to knowing God but to knowing himself.

I just told you. Jesus said, “but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. 41 You do what your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.” John 8:40 - 42

Jesus was not of this world. He was from above. We are from below. Obviously he wasn’t a man like you and me. Paul wrote, “The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 1 Cor. 15:47- 49

These verses are speaking of the humanity of Christ, which trinitarians rightly acknowledge. What they do not mean is that Jesus was literally a man prior to his coming to earth. As the God-man he is truly God and truly man.

We are from the earth because we are descended from Adam. Adam was the first man, the man of dust. The second man, Jesus, was from heaven. Jesus told us he proceeded and came forth from God. Take him at his word. If you don’t understand proceeded then let’s just say he came forth from God.

I understand was proceeded means, I wanted clarification from you since you seem to be saying he was literally a man prior to his coming to earth, which is error.

There’s no overlap. If you only knew. Jesus said he was the Son of God. That means he was born in the likeness of the Father, besides a whole lot of other things, such as being the heir which Son-ship implies. He told us the Father was the only true God. What is so difficult to understand here?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. What do you mean by "born in the likeness of the Father?" Are you referring to his birth to Mary and Joseph?

Yeah. A lot of people think they know what they are talking about, but they don’t know the Father or his Son. If Jesus was the LORD, then the LORD of the O.T. had no life in himself. As I said, and as Jesus said - the Father granted the Son to have life in himself, as God has life in himself. I think it follows that before the Son was begotten, he did not have life in himself as the Father has life in himself.

Again, begging the question. I will yet again state that LORD=YHWH, the proper name of the one God of the OT. To say that Jesus is LORD is to say that Jesus is YHWH, the God of the OT.


But you’re right. The O.T. isn’t easy to read. But as long as you remember God is speaking to the LORD and the LORD is speaking to man. It’s not always that simple. The LORD is God’s name. So you can refer to God as the LORD as well - as long as you don’t confuse his name and his being. Most of the time, when they are talking about God, they say the LORD is this or that. And even the LORD has a lot to say about God. But when the God says something, it is by and through his name - the LORD.

The LORD was not the true God. He was the appearance of the true God.

I will state it again: LORD=YHWH=true God. There is absolutely no getting around that fact.

 

[Who Says]

That is very true.

That is kind of a "no win" situation, isn't it!

If I say I see you are delighted that I see. If I say I do not see you conclude that is proof of what you believe about me.

That is a "no win" situation" for by being honest I cannot gain the help I need from you to see if indeed there is really something for me to see.

OK, so then tell me, what am I now to do?

 

[savedbygrace57]

ws:

I don't understand your seeing it that way.

Sorry I cannot help you on that..

 

[Asyncritus]

Good post, if Jesus is not God then the whole christian faith falls apart and just becomes another religion, so to debate the scriptural authority that presents Jesus as God is of great importance. Jesus prefered to call Himself the son of man,however when we read all of what He said and did it is clear that Jesus declared Himself to be God.

Jesus called Himself: Son of Man
Son of God

I can't remember anywhere where He said, I am God the Son, or, I am God.

Can you?

I've put up 78 passages showing that Jesus declares Himself to be inferior to God, most notably Jn 14.28 "My Father is greater than I".

And, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".(Jn 20:17)

So unless I misunderstand Him, He is saying that God is greater than Himself, and what is more, that the Father is His (Jesus') God. He thanks Him (Matt 14.19; 26:26,27; John 11.41), and He sings praise unto Him (Hebrews 2.12).

What more do you want?

 

[cleanfreak]

Jesus called Himself: Son of Man
Son of God

I can't remember anywhere where He said, I am God the Son, or, I am God.

Can you?

I've put up 78 passages showing that Jesus declares Himself to be inferior to God, most notably Jn 14.28 "My Father is greater than I".

And, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".(Jn 20:17)

So unless I misunderstand Him, He is saying that God is greater than Himself, and what is more, that the Father is His (Jesus') God. He thanks Him (Matt 14.19; 26:26,27; John 11.41), and He sings praise unto Him (Hebrews 2.12).

What more do you want?

you are correct. Nowhere in the scriptures does he (or anybody for that matter) call himself God the Son.

Isaiah states he will be called a 'mighty god' (EL GIBBOR), but he is never referred to as EL SHADDAI which is 'Almighty God'.

 

[cleanfreak]

I will state it again: LORD=YHWH=true God. There is absolutely no getting around that fact.

This is a true statement, but Jesus=Yeshua was never referred to as 'YHWH' as far as I know. If he was, please provide scriptures showing so.

 

[Free]

Jesus called Himself: Son of Man
Son of God

I can't remember anywhere where He said, I am God the Son, or, I am God.

Can you?

I've put up 78 passages showing that Jesus declares Himself to be inferior to God, most notably Jn 14.28 "My Father is greater than I".

And, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".(Jn 20:17)

So unless I misunderstand Him, He is saying that God is greater than Himself, and what is more, that the Father is His (Jesus') God. He thanks Him (Matt 14.19; 26:26,27; John 11.41), and He sings praise unto Him (Hebrews 2.12).

What more do you want?

Again, as I have stated before, all such verses are being taken out of context. Looking at what else Scripture states (from the thread on trinitarianism, since I can't get a response there):

I'm sure you would agree that everything John says, he says for a reason. And this is why I have continually stated that any Christology or theology proper must take into account all that Scripture reveals about God. What I am about to post is posted more than once around these forums and has yet to receive any substantial attempt at a rebuttal.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Greek word for "was" is en, which denotes a continuous action in the past or absolute existence. In other words, in John's clear allusion to Gen. 1, the Word already was in existence at the beginning of creation. This cannot be understood other than to say that the Word existed for eternity past. This is further supported by verse 3, which I will address in a moment.

John's choice of wording is quite specific with "the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It cannot be "a god," as this is polytheism and completely against all of Scripture.His use of language is such that the Word is not equated to all of God or God to all of the Word, which would make Word and God interchangeable. John's point is who the Word is, not who God is. And this leaves only one translation, and that is what is above, which the majority of translations state.

The Word both "was with God" and "was God"--God in nature, yet distinct from God in some way. This is where only the Trinity makes sense.


Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The breakdown of verse 3 is as follows:

P1. If "All things were made through" the Word,
P2. And "Without [the Word] was not any thing made that was made,"
C It follows that the Word could not have been made.

This is in perfect agreement with verse 1, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17 and Acts 3:15.


Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Here John uses a significant Greek word for "became," egeneto, which means an action in time. It is also the same word translated as "made" in verse 3. This is very significant because here we see John making a clear distinction between the Word's eternal preexistence in verse 1 (en), with the Word entering into time (egeneto) and becoming flesh.

This is further supported by Phil 2:6-8.


Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus called Himself: Son of Man
Son of God

I can't remember anywhere where He said, I am God the Son, or, I am God.

Can you?

I've put up 78 passages showing that Jesus declares Himself to be inferior to God, most notably Jn 14.28 "My Father is greater than I".

And, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".(Jn 20:17)

So unless I misunderstand Him, He is saying that God is greater than Himself, and what is more, that the Father is His (Jesus') God. He thanks Him (Matt 14.19; 26:26,27; John 11.41), and He sings praise unto Him (Hebrews 2.12).

What more do you want?

Jesus said, "I AM'.

John 18:6 NLT
As Jesus said “I Am he,†they all drew back and fell to the ground!

 

[cleanfreak]

This is a true statement, but Jesus=Yeshua was never referred to as 'YHWH' as far as I know. If he was, please provide scriptures showing so.

hello Free...:waving

...........care to comment?

 

[cleanfreak]

Jesus said, "I AM'.

John 18:6 NLT
As Jesus said “I Am he,†they all drew back and fell to the ground!

Jesus was answering the question when he asked the soldiers and officers "whom do you seek?" They replied "Jesus of Nazareth". Jesus replied "I am" as in 'I am Jesus' whom you seek.

 

[Who Says]

Jesus was answering the question when he asked the soldiers and officers "whom do you seek?" They replied "Jesus of Nazareth". Jesus replied "I am" as in 'I am Jesus' whom you seek.

The same "I am" is used at Matthew 8:9 as at John 8:58 and John 18:6.
Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

And falling down to do obesiance to a king was just a common jesture of respect for many done sincerely and for many only by habit:
2 Samuel 1:2 It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance.

But you must admit that those innocent imaginations are more cute than they are harmful if only everyone would cease arguing due to them.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus was answering the question when he asked the soldiers and officers "whom do you seek?" They replied "Jesus of Nazareth". Jesus replied "I am" as in 'I am Jesus' whom you seek.

The power of the name, 'I Am', is what He spoke. That is why that power knocked the men over. That is why the incident is preserved for you, so you will get it---Jesus is indeed God.

 

[cleanfreak]

The power of the name, 'I Am', is what He spoke. That is why that power knocked the men over. That is why the incident is preserved for you, so you will get it---Jesus is indeed God.

'I am' is not his name. It is Yeshua.

Nowhere is Yeshua called 'Almighty God'. If he is, please produce scripture that states it to be so.

 

[Alabaster]

'I am' is not his name. It is Yeshua.

Nowhere is Yeshua called 'Almighty God'. If he is, please produce scripture that states it to be so.

Jesus is God. He is I Am. Whenever He appeared to men in the OT, He came as the pre-incarnate Christ...

Genesis 17:1 NLT
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty.’ Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life.

Genesis 48:3 NLT
Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.

Isaiah 6:3 NLT
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’ —but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

Revelation 1:8 NLT
“I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,â€[a] says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.â€

Isaiah 9:6 NLT
For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Alabaster]

'I am' is not his name. It is Yeshua.

Yeshua is Jesus' earthly Hebrew name. However He is known by MANY names!

 

[cleanfreak]

Jesus is God. He is I Am. Whenever He appeared to men in the OT, He came as the pre-incarnate Christ...

Genesis 17:1 NLT
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty.’ Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life.

Genesis 48:3 NLT
Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.

Isaiah 6:3 NLT
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’ —but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

Revelation 1:8 NLT
“I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,”[a] says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”

Isaiah 9:6 NLT
For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

all your scriptures are for the God the Father except your last one in Isiah 9:6.

Isaiah used the word 'mighty god' = EL GIBBOR, not EL SHADDAI = Almighty God.

The Son given to us shall be called EL GIBBOR.

Nowhere is the Son of God called EL SHADDAI.