Is Lucifer Satan? A study of scripture...

[Vanguard]

The word Lucifer is used in the King James Version only once, in Isaiah 14:12: The KJV translators did not translate helel as Lucifer but borrowed the name from Jerome's translation of the Bible (A.D. 383-405).

And Jerome was wrong, and that is why modern translations have revised Isaiah 14:12. It is talking about a king of Babylon (as is the whole chapter), who was more than likely Nebuchadnezzar II.

Forget the KJV for a moment and consider what Jewish scholars will tell you about Isaiah chapter 14. It is their history, their language, their more accurate interpretation. They do not even believe in Satan as the devil, so why would they write about him falling? They will tell you that it is about the Babylonian king that wanted to put his throne as high (or higher) than God's, who persecuted the Hebrews, and they are mocking him in his death, plain and simple.

We've gone over this, so I am moving on from this point, if this thread comes back up. I respect your opinion if you wish to keep following the translation that the KJV uses. We'll leave it at that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christians view Satan/Lucifer as an adversary for which this created (spirit angel) is. It's our English language, like many other languages, that gives many names for the adversary just as many names are given for Yahweh. Isaiah Chapter 14 is speaking about the king of Babylon, and not Satan directly, but it is the evil influence of the adversary (Satan) that made the king to think himself higher than God thus God bringing him down to hell the sides of the pit, just as God will do to mans adversary (Satan).

Jewish view of Satan
Satan As A Metaphor for the Yetzer HaRa

The Hebrew word "satan" literally means "adversary" and in Jewish thought one of the things we struggle against every day is the "evil inclination," also known as the yetzer hara. The yetzer hara is not a force or a being, but rather refers to mankind's innate capacity for doing evil in the world. Using the term satan to describe this impulse is not very common though. (The "good inclination" is called the yetzer hatov.)

References to "satan" can be found in some Orthodox and Conservative prayer books, but they are viewed as symbolic descriptions of one aspect of mankind's nature.
References to Satan in the Hebrew Bible

Satan appears as a proper character only once in the Hebrew Bible. In the Book of Job he is depicted as an angel who mocks the piety of a righteous man named Job. He tells God that the only reason Job is so religious is because God has given him a life filled with blessings. "But lay Your hand upon all that he has, and he will curse You to Your face" (Job 1:11). God accepts Satan’s wager and allows Satan to rain all manner of misfortune upon Job: his sons and daughters die, he loses his fortune, he is afflicted with painful boils. Yet even though people tell Job to curse God, he refuses. Throughout the book Job demands that God tell him why all of things horrible things are happening to him but God does not answer until chapter 38. "Where were you when I established the world?" God asks Job, "Tell me, if you know so much" (Job 38:3-4). Job is humbled and admits that he has spoken of things he does not understand.

The Book of Job grapples with the difficult question of why God allows evil in the world. It is the only book in the Hebrew Bible that mentions "satan" as a sentient being. The idea of satan has a being with dominion over a metaphysical realm never caught on in Judaism. Judaism is so strictly monotheistic that the rabbis resisted the temptation to characterize anyone other than God with authority. Rather, God is the Creator of both good and evil and it is up to mankind to choose which path they will follow.

 

[Vanguard]

We've already been over all of that in previouos posts.

 

[n2thelight]

I'd suggest reading the OP first. Actually, go back and read the entire chapter 14 of Isaiah. It's talking about a king of Babylon. Context! Context! Context!

I did and I shall stay where I am...............satan has many names ,depending on which role he has, is or will play

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

satan is the only one that fell from heaven

"O' Lucifer" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, is number 1966. "Heylel, hay-lale', from 1984, (in the sense of brightness); the morning star-lucifer." Lets go to # 1984; "Halal, haw-lal', a prime root, to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color), to make a show or to boast, thus to be clamorously foolish; to rave." This is why Satan is called the son of the morning, or the morning star.

You sound good,your writting is good,but without a doubt,you are wrong..........lucifer is satan!!!!
​

 

[Vanguard]

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

You sound good,your writting is good,but without a doubt,you are wrong..........lucifer is satan!!!!

Ok let me address this one more time and then I am moving on. Please read over this and think on it before replying...

1. The OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews [Jews]. It is originally written in Hebrew, for the Hebrews, most likely by the Hebrews.
2. The word used throughout the OT that has been misinterpreted is sheol. It does NOT refer to hell, or Satan's dwelling place in any shape or fashion. It simple means the grave.
3. Jews do not believe in Hell. No where in the OT does it indicate that there is a Hell, hence why they don't believe in it.
4. Jews view Satan (or in Hebrew, Ha-SaTan) as an angel, who works for God, following God's orders. Satan accuses people of their sins, brings them before God for Him to judge.
5. Jews view God as all powerful, all knowing and everywhere. He is the ONLY God. If Satan were to have godlike powers, God would not be alone. Satan is a created being by God, who can't act without God's permission. If God wanted too, He could snap His fingers and make Satan disappear forever, but He doesn't. Hmmm....
6. Jews reject Jesus as the messiah.
7. Jews reject the NT completely.

These seven points illustrate the following:

Knowing all this (which is 100% factual) why on earth would Hebrews [Jews] have the OT verse of Isaiah 14:12 refer to Satan as the devil and falling from heaven (into Hell) when they don't believe in either concept? They wouldn't! And this comes from their language and history!

Go ask a Jewish rabbi who that verse refers to. He will tell you a fallen Babylonian king (and based off history, Nebuchadnezzar II). The entire chapter refers to that king, and the Hebrews are mocking him!

Maybe, just maybe...Jerome got the interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 WRONG when going from Hebrew to Latin, and the Church of England's 47 KJV scribes followed suit over a millenium later, since they copied Jerome's interpretation. Remember, they just broke away from the RCC and its use of the Latin Vulgate (which Jerome wrote).

Simply put, "lucifer" does not belong in Isaiah 14:12, an that is why modern translations have revised the verse. Since the word "lucifer" doesn't belong and has been omitted from modern translations, Lucifer does NOT equal Satan.

If you can't see or understand this after the facts have been laid out, there's nothing more I can say.

 

[Sinthesis]

Of course a 'satan' can also be a 'lucifer', depending on how you define the terms.

 

[P31Woman]

Here is an interesting tidbit...go talk to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi about their view on Satan. Yes he is/was an angel, yes he deceives and tempts us, BUT...under their belief, God is everywhere, all powerful, and all knowing (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient). Nothing happens without God's permission, and that includes Satan's actions. For them Satan is following God's orders to tempt us, deceive us, and trick us to see if we, as human beings, will sin. That puts a whole new spin on things, and this is coming from OT following Jews.

Vanguard,

This is from your post #7.

What do you mean by "whole new twist on things"?

 

[Vanguard]

It means Christians have the OT interpretation of Satan wrong according to Judaism. We see him as the deceiver, the adversary, the liar. They see him as following God's orders, and carrying out his job title of Ha-SaTan [The Accuser] (the English word satan comes from the Hebrew word Ha-SaTan).

He accuses; God judges those accused. It's a test of our faith and ability to follow God's laws.

OT Masoretic Text 101.

 

[P31Woman]

It means Christians have the OT interpretation of Satan wrong according to Judaism. We see him as the deceiver, the adversary, the liar. They see him as following God's orders, and carrying out his job title of Ha-SaTan [The Accuser] (the English word satan comes from the Hebrew word Ha-SaTan).

He accuses; God judges those accused. It's a test of our faith and ability to follow God's laws.

OT Masoretic Text 101.

You did not answer the question. Christians have always knows Jews don't agree with us.

What do you mean it puts a whole new twist on things? What is the "new" and what is "things"?

 

[Vanguard]

I did answer the question.

However, timeout...

Christians did not exist in the OT. Christians come from the belief in Christ Jesus, and the NT is His story and the path to salvation through Him. Get it out of your head that the OT is the first half of the Christian Bible (and no one else's). The OT is the Torah (laws) for the Hebrews (Jews) in the first five books. The rest is the Tanakh. Christians and Jews share the exact same OT, although their books are ordered differently, and it was originally written in Hebrew.

Moving on...

Jews don't agree with Christians on the NT and Jesus as the Messiah because of failed OT prophecies. Christians claim they will be fulfilled in the 2nd coming of Jesus. The differences are in the finer details. We've already been over that prophecy issue in the other thread. No need for your opinion on it here. I am just trying to explain things.

To re-answer (or clarify) your question, Satan can't do anything without God's permission. God is the only God. God is the only one who has supreme power and intelligence. God is the only one who is omnipresent (everywhere) and has supreme authority. God created Satan. Satan is subject to God's will, as one of His angels, and his job is to be The Accuser (Ha-SaTan). When you look at it like that, and the entire OT supports this position if you actually read what it says, it puts a whole new twist on the perspective of Satan.

Hebrews do not believe in the concept of the devil or hell. The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as Lucifer...something the KJV got WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of either? They wouldn't. The OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. It is included in our Bibles because the OT leads to the NEW COVENANT that Jesus talks about in the NT. That new covenant replaces the OT covenant that was a pact between God and the Hebrews. The Hebrews were God's chosen people. That gave them arrogance. Jesus declared that Jews and Gentiles alike are equal, and ALL will be saved through Him as equals.

That was a slap in the face of the Jews and their arrogance, and it is why they hated Jesus so much (and it was more the Pharisees than anyone...which was the ruling religious authority at the time).

Clearer?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I did answer the question.

However, timeout...

Christians did not exist in the OT. Christians come from the belief in Christ Jesus, and the NT is His story and the path to salvation through Him. Get it out of your head that the OT is the first half of the Christian Bible (and no one else's). The OT is the Torah (laws) for the Hebrews (Jews) in the first five books. The rest is the Tanakh. Christians and Jews share the exact same OT, although their books are ordered differently, and it was originally written in Hebrew.

Moving on...

Jews don't agree with Christians on the NT and Jesus as the Messiah because of failed OT prophecies. Christians claim they will be fulfilled in the 2nd coming of Jesus. The differences are in the finer details. We've already been over that prophecy issue in the other thread. No need for your opinion on it here. I am just trying to explain things.

To re-answer (or clarify) your question, Satan can't do anything without God's permission. God is the only God. God is the only one who has supreme power and intelligence. God is the only one who is omnipresent (everywhere) and has supreme authority. God created Satan. Satan is subject to God's will, as one of His angels, and his job is to be The Accuser (Ha-SaTan). When you look at it like that, and the entire OT supports this position if you actually read what it says, it puts a whole new twist on the perspective of Satan.

Hebrews do not believe in the concept of the devil or hell. The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as Lucifer...something the KJV got WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of either? They wouldn't. The OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. It is included in our Bibles because the OT leads to the NEW COVENANT that Jesus talks about in the NT. That new covenant replaces the OT covenant that was a pact between God and the Hebrews. The Hebrews were God's chosen people. That gave them arrogance. Jesus declared that Jews and Gentiles alike are equal, and ALL will be saved through Him as equals.

That was a slap in the face of the Jews and their arrogance, and it is why they hated Jesus so much (and it was more the Pharisees than anyone...which was the ruling religious authority at the time).

Clearer?

Very clear.

I agreed with P31Woman as far as wanting further clarification. I'm glad she asked.

 

[Vanguard]

One thing I have noticed...when people go beyond what the Bible actually says, they have to invent theories, or at least stretch some verses, in order to explain how different things can happen or exist. One right on top of another. Sometimes the most simple, straight forward answer is the right one, and you can bypass all the needed creativity in order to arrive at it.

The problem a lot of Christians have is the idea that they might be wrong on some things. Pride gets in the way.

 

[Guest]

Christians did not exist in the OT. Christians come from the belief in Christ Jesus, and the NT is His story and the path to salvation through Him.

Who is the 'Lord' they are referring to in the OT of Psalms 24:1-2, Psalms 86:15 & Psalms 145:17, how do you say Lord in Hebrew? How many times does the Lord come up in the OT? Isn't the Lord in fact Christ Jesus not yet born? The first thing you need to learn about Christianity 101, is Faith.

Ya know, for someone who likes to put scriptures into context and find the 'facts', you really have trouble with telling us what your belief system is. What do you believe in, or do you just like to state facts from google, lol. You don't even know what salvation means in the NT, do you? If Holy Spirit Baptism is not the only way to get to Heaven then what's your way? Christianity 101 Pt 2, drum roll please.........


a good person still sins.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

One thing I have noticed...when people go beyond what the Bible actually says, they have to invent theories, or at least stretch some verses, in order to explain how different things can happen or exist. One right on top of another. Sometimes the most simple, straight forward answer is the right one, and you can bypass all the needed creativity in order to arrive at it.

The problem a lot of Christians have is the idea that they might be wrong on some things. Pride gets in the way.

Amen. Good observation.

 

[P31Woman]

I did answer the question.

However, timeout...

Christians did not exist in the OT. Christians come from the belief in Christ Jesus, and the NT is His story and the path to salvation through Him. Get it out of your head that the OT is the first half of the Christian Bible (and no one else's). The OT is the Torah (laws) for the Hebrews (Jews) in the first five books. The rest is the Tanakh. Christians and Jews share the exact same OT, although their books are ordered differently, and it was originally written in Hebrew.

Moving on...

Jews don't agree with Christians on the NT and Jesus as the Messiah because of failed OT prophecies. Christians claim they will be fulfilled in the 2nd coming of Jesus. The differences are in the finer details. We've already been over that prophecy issue in the other thread. No need for your opinion on it here. I am just trying to explain things.

To re-answer (or clarify) your question, Satan can't do anything without God's permission. God is the only God. God is the only one who has supreme power and intelligence. God is the only one who is omnipresent (everywhere) and has supreme authority. God created Satan. Satan is subject to God's will, as one of His angels, and his job is to be The Accuser (Ha-SaTan). When you look at it like that, and the entire OT supports this position if you actually read what it says, it puts a whole new twist on the perspective of Satan.

Hebrews do not believe in the concept of the devil or hell. The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as Lucifer...something the KJV got WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of either? They wouldn't. The OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. It is included in our Bibles because the OT leads to the NEW COVENANT that Jesus talks about in the NT. That new covenant replaces the OT covenant that was a pact between God and the Hebrews. The Hebrews were God's chosen people. That gave them arrogance. Jesus declared that Jews and Gentiles alike are equal, and ALL will be saved through Him as equals.

That was a slap in the face of the Jews and their arrogance, and it is why they hated Jesus so much (and it was more the Pharisees than anyone...which was the ruling religious authority at the time).

Clearer?

The entire Bible is the story of Jesus Christ.

There are no failed OT prophecies concerning the coming Messiah (first arrival) Jesus did not fufill. The prophecies concerning the second coming is not an "Chrisitan invention". The Jews are too blind to read what Christians see clearly in the OT.. Jew failed to see Jesus because they were/are not seeking God. The SAME reason people fail to see Jesus now.

The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about
something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as
Lucifer...something the KJV got WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of
either?

Prophets did not necessarily have a CLUE what they were guided to speak or write about. They were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak/write the very words God wanted them to say/write.

(the deals with the inspiration of scripture)

2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Note it's the "scripture prophecy" we are to put our trust in to be from God not some modern day or past prophet.

The written Prophecy has it's origin from God. They spoke from Him and were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

__________________

It would help you a great deal to invest as much time studying the NT as you have spent studying these issues that are of little importance. It would help you even more if you invested time meditating and memorizing much of the New Testament.

 

[Vanguard]

The entire Bible is the story of Jesus Christ.

There are no failed OT prophecies concerning the coming Messiah (first arrival) Jesus did not fufill. The prophecies concerning the second coming is not an "Chrisitan invention". The Jews are too blind to read what Christians see clearly in the OT.. Jew failed to see Jesus because they were/are not seeking God. The SAME reason people fail to see Jesus now.

Bad information is still bad, regardess of which thread you post it in.

It would help you a great deal to invest as much time studying the NT as you have spent studying these issues that are of little importance. It would help you even more if you invested time meditating and memorizing much of the New Testament.

You are now grasping at straws. I am going to guess that you are an old school, hard line, Southern Baptist...I used to be one. Facts are facts. If they are still lost on you, I'll pray for you so that your eyes may be opened, as well as your mind.

 

[P31Woman]

Bad information is still bad, regardess of which thread you post it in.




You are now grasping at straws. I am going to guess that you are an old school, hard line, Southern Baptist...I used to be one. Facts are facts. If they are still lost on you, I'll pray for you so that your eyes may be opened, as well as your mind.

The Jews and everyone else are "without excuse".

Romans 1

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[P31Woman]

Bad information is still bad, regardess of which thread you post it in.




You are now grasping at straws. I am going to guess that you are an old school, hard line, Southern Baptist...I used to be one. Facts are facts. If they are still lost on you, I'll pray for you so that your eyes may be opened, as well as your mind.

BTW,

You failed to copy and respond to the rest of my post. Here it is.


Vanguard quote:

The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about

something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as
Lucifer...something the KJV got
WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of
either?

My reply
Prophets did not necessarily have a CLUE what they were guided to speak or write about. They were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak/write the very words God wanted them to say/write.

(the deals with the inspiration of scripture)

2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Note it's the "scripture prophecy" we are to put our trust in to be from God not some modern day or past prophet.

The written Prophecy has it's origin from God. They spoke from Him and were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Vanguard]

BTW, You failed to copy and respond to the rest of my post.

I was unaware that I had to respond to every single thing that you post, especially when the answers you seek have been covered elsewhere by me.

totopic

 

[P31Woman]

I was unaware that I had to respond to every single thing that you post, especially when the answers you seek have been covered elsewhere by me.

totopic

Scritpure scare you off?

If you are going to teach this you need to "back it up". I said you were wrong and used "scripture" as my proof now support your "doctrine"

Your Claim:


The Book of Isaiah is in the OT. Why on earth would they write about
something (the liberal Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14:12 as
Lucifer...something the KJV got
WRONG) when they don't believe in the concept of
either?


My Reply


Prophets did not necessarily have a CLUE what they were guided to speak or write about. They were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak/write the very words God wanted them to say/write.

(the deals with the inspiration of scripture)

2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Note it's the "scripture prophecy" we are to put our trust in to be from God not some modern day or past prophet.

The written Prophecy has it's origin from God. They spoke from Him and were carried along by the Holy Spirit.